Church "authority"

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guanophore said:
I see that you got banned while I was composing my last reply. This is regrettable, but probably it means that you were unable to curb your anti-Catholic hostility and the spreading of lies (accusing the CC of things she does not teach).

I will pray for you Augustus 24, for you obviously are suffering from some grave misunderstandings about the Catholic faith, and have an overwhelming degree of hostility toward the Sacred Tradition. May God deliver you from these things. And may Mary, Mother of the Church, reveal to you the fruit of her womb, Jesus. 👍
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You fight the hardest against what you are drawn toward the most…
 
guanophore said:
I see that you got banned while I was composing my last reply. This is regrettable, but probably it means that you were unable to curb your anti-Catholic hostility and the spreading of lies (accusing the CC of things she does not teach).
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Thanks for explaining things better than I could!
guanophore said:
I will pray for you Augustus 24, for you obviously are suffering from some grave misunderstandings about the Catholic faith, and have an overwhelming degree of hostility toward the Sacred Tradition. May God deliver you from these things. And may Mary, Mother of the Church, reveal to you the fruit of her womb, Jesus. 👍
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To think that I was once as blind as him… :o

Praise be to God I’m back home!
 
Augustus24 said:
Here is the clearest example of Sola scriptura taught in scripture:
  • II Timothy 3:16-17, “All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for instruction, for training in righteousness, in order that the man of God might be complete, fully equipped for every good work.”*
The key words are “complete” and fully equipped".

Now, what does it mean to say that one “is fully equipped,” if not to say that one is sufficient for a task?

To be fully equipped means lacking nothing. Paul expressly rejects any other source of teaching, no Pope, no magisterium or any other rule of faith.

That the scriptures fully equip someone for every good work. Is praying to Mary or any other dead person a good work? The scriptures don’t say to do that. Or that Mary zoomed off into heaven, is teaching that a good work? Yet the scriptures don’t teach that either. The scriptures don’t fully equip a person for the aforementioned teachings in fact they know nothing of them at all.
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hello-- thanks for you (name removed by moderator)ut-- this type of discussion has been going on for more than 500 years – especially with the counsel of Trent-- conclusion-

you do simply and clearly express your understanding of scripture–

it must get some people mad ! or rather frustrated:eek:
 
1answer said:
Code: 
hello-- thanks for you (name removed by moderator)ut-- this type of discussion has been going on for more than 500 years -- especially with the counsel of Trent-- conclusion-
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That is because the council of Trent clearly refuted the heresies of the Reformation that began around that time. This is the duty and responsibility of the Church.
1answer said:
you do simply and clearly express your understanding of scripture–

it must get some people mad ! or rather frustrated:eek:
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Yes, but Augustine24 has only an “opinion” and not authoriative instruction to all the faithful.

The errant doctrine of Sola Scriptura does not make Catholic “mad”. For the most part, I think “sad” might fit better, since we see so many stray from the One Faith on account of it. The only one on this thread who seems to be very angry is the one who is espousing such a doctrine!
 
1answer said:
hello-- thanks for you (name removed by moderator)ut-- this type of discussion has been going on for more than 500 years – especially with the counsel of Trent-- conclusion-

you do simply and clearly express your understanding of scripture–

it must get some people mad ! or rather frustrated:eek:
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I wonder if your ip address is the same as augustus24… 🤓
 
kwortham said:
The Law of the Lord is perfect! However, Psalm 19:7-14 does not refer to scripture. It refers to the law of the Lord.

(Jer 31:33)
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD,** I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts**; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Write it in their hearts?! Hmmm! This doesn’t sound like a book!!!
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thanks for this discussion-- but

i think in in jeremiah 31-- which is quoted in hebrews
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said**:

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,

when I will make a new covenant

with the people of Israel ( the 10 northern tribes- who were dispersed)

and with the people of Judah. (the 2 sourthern tribes -who make up todays jewish nation)

9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.

10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel( the 10 northern tribes- who were dispersed)

after that time, declares the Lord.

I will put my laws in their minds

and write them on their hearts.

I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.

12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”[c]

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

SOoo-- BUT i am not sure of the church or covenant authority

i’ m not sure if this new covenant is in place yet–

or if it applies to the converted Gentiles, that make up the catholic church

all though some people think it might have something to do with the baptism of the Holy Spirit

but scripture seems to indicate that it applies to the people under the first covenant or the O.T. covenant

but thanks for bring this scriptue to light**
 
Augustus24 said:
Can you show me in scripture where our Lord or an Apostle appeals to an oral tradition instead of scripture?
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There are actually several places in scripture where our Lord or an Apostle appeals to an oral tradition instead of scripture.

From this link:

Matt. 2:23 - the prophecy “He shall be a Nazarene” is oral tradition. It is not found in the Old Testament. This demonstrates that the apostles relied upon oral tradition and taught by oral tradition.

Matt 23:2 - Jesus relies on the oral tradition of acknowledging Moses’ seat of authority (which passed from Moses to Joshua to the Sanhedrin). This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

John 19:26; 20:2; 21:20,24 - knowing that the “beloved disciple” is John is inferred from Scripture, but is also largely oral tradition.

Acts 20:35 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the apostles for this statement (“it is better to give than to receive”) of Jesus. It is not recorded in the Gospels.

1 Cor. 7:10 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the apostles to give the charge of Jesus that a wife should not separate from her husband.

1 Cor. 10:4 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the rock following Moses. It is not recorded in the Old Testament. See Exodus 17:1-17 and Num. 20:2-13.

Eph 5:14 - Paul relies on oral tradition to quote an early Christian hymn - “awake O sleeper rise from the dead and Christ shall give you light.”

Heb. 11:37 - the author of Hebrews relies on the oral tradition of the martyrs being sawed in two. This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

Jude 9 - Jude relies on the oral tradition of the Archangel Michael’s dispute with satan over Moses’ body. This is not found in the Old Testament.

Jude 14-15 - Jude relies on the oral tradition of Enoch’s prophecy which is not recorded in the Old Testament.
 
If you want someone to obey your authority you must practise what you preach. As far as traditions go; the Catholic Church broke many long held traditions when they established the teachings of Vatican II.

Is anyone familiar with the scriptures that point out the various ways in which the church has deviated from the teaching of the apostles?

1 Timothy 3:1 This is a statement that can be trusted: If anyone sets his heart on being a bishop, he desires something excellent. 2 A bishop must have a good reputation. He must have only one wife, be sober, use good judgment, be respectable, be hospitable, and be able to teach. 3 He must not drink excessively or be a violent person, but he must be gentle. He must not be quarrelsome or love money. 4 He must manage his own family well. His children should respectfully obey him. 5 (If a man doesn’t know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6 He must not be a new Christian, or he might become arrogant like the devil and be condemned. 7 People who are not Christians must speak well of him, or he might become the victim of disgraceful insults that the devil sets as traps for him.

1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. 16 Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.

Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

Ephesians 5:11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

1 Timothy 5:20 Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

And finally look at Peter’s response when Cornelius treated him as though he were superior to others.

Acts 10:24 The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25 As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26 But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”
 
etnelic said:
If you want someone to obey your authority you must practise what you preach. As far as traditions go; the Catholic Church broke many long held traditions when they established the teachings of Vatican II.

Is anyone familiar with the scriptures that point out the various ways in which the church has deviated from the teaching of the apostles?

1 Timothy 3:1 This is a statement that can be trusted: If anyone sets his heart on being a bishop, he desires something excellent. 2 A bishop must have a good reputation. He must have only one wife, be sober, use good judgment, be respectable, be hospitable, and be able to teach. 3 He must not drink excessively or be a violent person, but he must be gentle. He must not be quarrelsome or love money. 4 He must manage his own family well. His children should respectfully obey him. 5 (If a man doesn’t know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6 He must not be a new Christian, or he might become arrogant like the devil and be condemned. 7 People who are not Christians must speak well of him, or he might become the victim of disgraceful insults that the devil sets as traps for him.

1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. 16 Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.

Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

Ephesians 5:11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

1 Timothy 5:20 Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

And finally look at Peter’s response when Cornelius treated him as though he were superior to others.

Acts 10:24 The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25 As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26 But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”
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Then I guess according to your assessment,the Apostles were just as guilty. I do recall Peter denying Jesus, his higher authority and another flat out rejecting Jesus…his higher authority. Should I go on?

A lack of discipline is nothing,stop acting as though you are sinless. Why don’t you look at your own back yard before you examine others yards.
 
etnelic said:
If you want someone to obey your authority you must practise what you preach. As far as traditions go; the Catholic Church broke many long held traditions when they established the teachings of Vatican II…
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[bibledrb]Matthew 7:3-5[/bibledrb]
 
etnelic said:
If you want someone to obey your authority you must practise what you preach. As far as traditions go; the Catholic Church broke many long held traditions when they established the teachings of Vatican II.
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Enlighten us.
:cool:
 
The mass is nothing like the pre-Vatican 2 mass. Touching communion was never permitted because only the priest was consecrated. You’ll probably tell me it’s a small t issue but there are many other issues that contradict previous church teachings such as salvation for Jews, Muslims and Protestants which do not fall under the heading of Tradition so I suppose those could be explained away also. My concern is about the assertion of authority by those who expect to be obeyed when they fail to obey their own predecessors.
 
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