Church Can't Ever Go Corrupt

[AirLiner]

Nope. None of the Scriptures you lists (ah, a Catholic using Sola Scriptura!) so much as even MENTIONS The Catholic Church or the Bishops thereof or the Pope thereof. And none of them so much as even MENTIONS anything or anyone being infallible or unaccountable. And none of them so much as even MENTIONS interpretation of Scripture or Catholic Tradition. And none of them so much as even MENTIONS arbitration of the teachings of The Catholic Church or any other. So, the listed (but for good reasons not quoted) Scriptures substantiate NOTHING of what one alone (The Catholic Church) claims for one alone (The Catholic Church) in order to exempt one alone (The Catholic Church) from accountability.

The irony being here that I wrote the premises to avoid this type of Biblical argument. Hey Josiah, there are hundreds of honest interpretations of the Bible, with everyone having no more to show that they are the true interpretation than anyone else. This itself shows Sola Scripture to be an unreliable method of discovering morality.

It would be more appropriate for this thread if you concentrated on the premises in the first post and my subsequent posts, and tried to find flaws in those. Don’t fear reason, God created that to help us find truth as well.

 

[AmericanJosiah]

The irony being

… that a Catholic uses Sola Scriptura (embracing Scripture as the rule/canon) to try to prove what OBVIOUSLY it never says. Perhaps the last thing any Catholic should do to try to dispute Sola Scriptura is to embrace it.

Don’t fear reason, God created that to help us find truth as well.

Agreed. But circular arguments are not reason.

I don’t deny that the LDS could be right, there is a certain “logic” IF one assumes the foundational claim of the LDS alone for the LDS alone: namely, that Jesus Himself founded the LDS and giive it exclusive authority (to teach, to administer the Sacraments, to ordain, etc.) and promised to keep it from all error. ASSUME the all those claims of one alone (the LDS) for one alone (the LDS) and yes - I agree, it then becomes reasonable that one alone (the LDS) would have all and exclusive authority (to teach, to administer the Sacraments, to ordain, to interpret, to arbitrate) and that since it cannot err, therefore it does not. Yes, it DOES follow. But obviously, it’s a circular argument. It’s entirely meaningless and moot (and ONLY a circumvention and diversion) without agreement on the assumption.

.

 

[AirLiner]

… that a Catholic uses Sola Scriptura (embracing Scripture as the rule/canon) to try to prove what OBVIOUSLY it never says. Perhaps the last thing any Catholic should do to try to dispute Sola Scriptura is to embrace it.

I never did that.

Agreed. But circular arguments are not reason.

I don’t deny that the LDS could be right, there is a certain “logic” IF one assumes the foundational claim of the LDS alone for the LDS alone: namely, that Jesus Himself founded the LDS and giive it exclusive authority (to teach, to administer the Sacraments, to ordain, etc.) and promised to keep it from all error. ASSUME the all those claims of one alone (the LDS) for one alone (the LDS) and yes - I agree, it then becomes reasonable that one alone (the LDS) would have all and exclusive authority (to teach, to administer the Sacraments, to ordain, to interpret, to arbitrate) and that since it cannot err, therefore it does not. Yes, it DOES follow. But obviously, it’s a circular argument. It’s entirely meaningless and moot (and ONLY a circumvention and diversion) without agreement on the assumption.

Something tells me you haven’t been paying much attention to this thread. Go back to the first post and deal with those premises .

 

[AmateurPianist]

The phrase “God must” was only used once in my premises. I am merely postulating that God would teach human beings morality if they were unable to find it for themselves.

And don’t be so hostile to reason, again I’m not subjecting God through reason, merely seeking to understand Him. Reason is a part of Creation too. All I’m doing here is trying to show that the existence of a Divine Guide is necessary given the existence of human fallibility and morality.

I am not hostile to reason. If anything, I usually to overreason myself.

But God is just not subject to human reason.

God did not “have to” provide mankind either a Bible or a church. The fact that He has done both is a product of His grace and nothing else.

 

[AirLiner]

I am not hostile to reason. If anything, I usually to overreason myself.

But God is just not subject to human reason.

God did not “have to” provide mankind either a Bible or a church. The fact that He has done both is a product of His grace and nothing else.

I stated before that the only presupposed premises required to understand my argument were number 1 and 2, but I’m starting to see that I can add part of number 3 to it.

If you believe that God has instituted some way of teaching morality here on earth. *Then * from those three premises follows the idea that it must be an institution.

It can’t be the Bible alone because people have multiple honest interpretations of it. It can’t be direct revelation either or else we each would each experience that personally. Personal experience and the existence of such vast different creeds in the world goes against this idea as well.

Does the argument make sense now?

 

[ronin67]

Christ’s church can not and will not go corrupt. The great checks and balances (God our Father) will intervene on the Churches behalf if this starts to happen. He has done it in Catholic church history before (Reformation) and would do it again if the humans running the one true church start to go away from his truth. The body of Christ will not become corrupt.

Take Care and May God Bless!

Merry Christmas to all!

Ed

 

[AirLiner]

Christ’s church can not and will not go corrupt. The great checks and balances (God our Father) will intervene on the Churches behalf if this starts to happen. He has done it in Catholic church history before (Reformation) and would do it again if the humans running the one true church start to go away from his truth. The body of Christ will not become corrupt.

Take Care and May God Bless!

Merry Christmas to all!

Ed

Okay the problem with that, is that you contradict yourself. You admit that God would not allow the Church to go corrupt, but if the Reformation was a way to clear up the evil corrupt Church then the fact is it still went corrupt and God left the world in the dark.

Another thing, why would God instigate the Reformation to clean up the Church? Why not instead prevent the Church from going corrupt in the first place?

This ideology also produces a mess in trying to figure out the one true Church because if the original Church went corrupt then whose to say the Reformed one isn’t? This type of reasoning has resulted in disunity and thousands of different denominations.

 

[ronin67]

Okay the problem with that, is that you contradict yourself. You admit that God would not allow the Church to go corrupt, but if the Reformation was a way to clear up the evil corrupt Church then the fact is it still went corrupt and God left the world in the dark.

Another thing, why would God instigate the Reformation to clean up the Church? Why not instead prevent the Church from going corrupt in the first place?

This ideology also produces a mess in trying to figure out the one true Church because if the original Church went corrupt then whose to say the Reformed one isn’t? This type of reasoning has resulted in disunity and thousands of different denominations.

A. No, he corrected the actions of the Catholic Church and got them back on track. After the reformation, many popes admitted and recorded that salvation is obtainable outside the one true church and that the reformation may have been necessary to correct corruption internally.

A. Sometimes the best learning is done at the expense of much pain and suffering. Sometimes when my children refuse to listen, I make them learn the hardway on their own. I can sit and preach and do things for them, but they don’t mature. Get it?? God didn’t instigate anything, that is what the devil does.

A. This is true, but fixing this issue is something that will take a long time. Do I believe it will happen one day, I hope so. Pride on both sides causes it not to happen. Many Protestant denominations don’t question Catholic Doctrine, but why then they don’t come back to the Catholic Church is a easy answer, pride. The Catholic church has done a little better on the issue, at least they say salvation is obtainable outside the Catholic Church and many in the Catholic Church see why the reformation happened and that it was not just a unwarranted evil rebellion. God the Father is almighty, think about what you said above. It was in his power to stop it, but he didn’t intercede, Why? Remember the devil can only do what God allows him to do. So I believe their is a deeper message behind the Reformation, then just a bunch of disgruntled Catholics who were tired of the Catholic Church. You can agree or disagree (either way it doesn’t matter to me). Bottom line the reformation happened and our Heavenly Father could have stopped it, softening the heart of the Pope when Martin Luther propsed his questions (95 Theses), but he allowed it to take its course and we have what we have. Are you questioning why God let it happen?

 

[AirLiner]

A. No, he corrected the actions of the Catholic Church and got them back on track. After the reformation, many popes admitted and recorded that salvation is obtainable outside the one true church and that the reformation may have been necessary to correct corruption internally.

Woah there you have a poor understanding of no salvation outside of the Church. Look up baptism by desire. The Church has never changed a doctrine, trust me I’ve seen this topic beaten to death, and the Reformation was not neccesary to correct abuses and corruption. History shows that such reform has been achieved without schism, the age of Hildebrand, later known as Pope Gregory VII comes to mind.

A. Sometimes the best learning is done at the expense of much pain and suffering. Sometimes when my children refuse to listen, I make them learn the hardway on their own. I can sit and preach and do things for them, but they don’t mature. Get it?? God didn’t instigate anything, that is what the devil does.

Okay the Reformation had to be one of the worst ways ever to achieve reform. It brought about the rise of individualism and anti-authoritarianism which didn’t exactly do wonders for morality. Martin Luther himself noted,
“We experience it daily, that the people are seven times worse today than ever before under the Papacy; they are more avaricious, more unchaste, more envious, more intemperate, more dishonest”
There was also political turmoil as governments turned against the Church and Christendom became fractured.

Furthermore, since people now had the motivation to question long held Church teaching some decided to question the validity of the Bible, and even theism itself. It is no coincidence that the rise of secularism occurred only two centuries after the Reformation. It is the atheists that triumphed over all other ideologies and they are now taking over all of the western world. Take a look at Europe and see the future of the US. I’ve seen these people’s thoughts on blogs, videos, articles, online comments. The most abominable blasphemies are seen as jokes amongst some atheist circles.

In short its not that I doubt God would bring about Reform, its that I doubt that God would intervene only to make things worse.

Also, I’m not questioning, why God let it happen, the fact is that people have free will, things like slavery, genocide, and unjust wars happen, God allows them to happen because he gave human beings free will.

 

[ronin67]

Woah there you have a poor understanding of no salvation outside of the Church. Look up baptism by desire. The Church has never changed a doctrine, trust me I’ve seen this topic beaten to death, and the Reformation was not neccesary to correct abuses and corruption. History shows that such reform has been achieved without schism, the age of Hildebrand, later known as Pope Gregory VII comes to mind.

Okay the Reformation had to be one of the worst ways ever to achieve reform. It brought about the rise of individualism and anti-authoritarianism which didn’t exactly do wonders for morality. Martin Luther himself noted,
“We experience it daily, that the people are seven times worse today than ever before under the Papacy; they are more avaricious, more unchaste, more envious, more intemperate, more dishonest”
There was also political turmoil as governments turned against the Church and Christendom became fractured.

Furthermore, since people now had the motivation to question long held Church teaching some decided to question the validity of the Bible, and even theism itself. It is no coincidence that the rise of secularism occurred only two centuries after the Reformation. It is the atheists that triumphed over all other ideologies and they are now taking over all of the western world. Take a look at Europe and see the future of the US. I’ve seen these people’s thoughts on blogs, videos, articles, online comments. The most abominable blasphemies are seen as jokes amongst some atheist circles.

In short its not that I doubt God would bring about Reform, its that I doubt that God would intervene only to make things worse.

Also, I’m not questioning, why God let it happen, the fact is that people have free will, things like slavery, genocide, and unjust wars happen, God allows them to happen because he gave human beings free will.

Thank you for your explaination and I agree with you about free will. In many cases I sometimes know what is wrong, and still choose it. My weakness of the flesh causes me to fall on occasion, but repentance always follows. As far as your comment of the decline of Europe and the US at the hands of atheist, I would have to agree 100%. It gets worse each year. One sad group in particular is the group “The atheist experience” out of Austin, Texas. Christimas is a holiday that keeps getting more touchy/feely every year. How can you have Christmas without Christ Jesus our savior as the center point??? As far as for the reform, do you feel if Pope Leo would have addressed the issue (95 Theses) with Martin Luther, the reform would have still happened?

Take Care and May God Bless you and your family this Christmas!

Ed

 

[AirLiner]

As far as for the reform, do you feel if Pope Leo would have addressed the issue (95 Theses) with Martin Luther, the reform would have still happened?

It’s a lot more complicated than that. European Monarch’s were greedy for Church property and power. The Reformation gave them a precedent to take them. Many things would have happened differently if the grand catastrophe known as the Reformation and its aftermath were to be avoided.

 

[ronin67]

It’s a lot more complicated than that. European Monarch’s were greedy for Church property and power. The Reformation gave them a precedent to take them. Many things would have happened differently if the grand catastrophe known as the Reformation and its aftermath were to be avoided.

Sir, can I get a straight answer. Every time the Reformation is brought up on this forum anywhere, it seems no one wants to ever admit that maybe it was a pride issue and greed on the part of Pope Leo or others in the Catholic church at the time. Yes, history shows it may have been more then just this, but please answer the question. If Pope Leo would have answered Martin Luther and gave him a stage to converse on the 95 Theses, do you think the reformation would have still happened? My priest said that many good points were brought up by Martin Luther in his 95 Theses, in fact he said when he went thru seminary they were presented and studied Luther’s 95 Theses. He also added, the class was given by a Lutheran minister. I get conflicted about Catholics quite a bit. I get the great patience of my current priest, then when I come to this forum, it is pretty much “Our way or the Highway” mentality. Why is that? May God Bless you and your family this Christmas season!

Ed

 

[Justy90]

What you have missed is that God gave Himself so that humans can be moral agents without Him we are corrupt, It is Christ within us individually that changes us to be moral. You have missed the mark so profoundly that your own salvation comes into question.

You said a mouthful there and I totally agree. The mark has been completely missed because there is no understanding of who Christ really is and what he begins to do within us once our faith in his Salvation begins to grow and manifest itself deeper within us. It’s great to see someone here who understands this apart from all of the human rheoric.

 

[Justy90]

Nope.

None of the Scriptures you lists (ah, a Catholic using Sola Scriptura!) so much as even MENTIONS The Catholic Church or the Bishops thereof or the Pope thereof. And none of them so much as even MENTIONS anything or anyone being infallible or unaccountable. And none of them so much as even MENTIONS interpretation of Scripture or Catholic Tradition. And none of them so much as even MENTIONS arbitration of the teachings of The Catholic Church or any other. So, the listed (but for good reasons not quoted) Scriptures substantiate NOTHING of what one alone (The Catholic Church) claims for one alone (The Catholic Church) in order to exempt one alone (The Catholic Church) from accountability

 

[AirLiner]

Sir, can I get a straight answer. Every time the Reformation is brought up on this forum anywhere, it seems no one wants to ever admit that maybe it was a pride issue and greed on the part of Pope Leo or others in the Catholic church at the time. Yes, history shows it may have been more then just this, but please answer the question. If Pope Leo would have answered Martin Luther and gave him a stage to converse on the 95 Theses, do you think the reformation would have still happened? My priest said that many good points were brought up by Martin Luther in his 95 Theses, in fact he said when he went thru seminary they were presented and studied Luther’s 95 Theses. He also added, the class was given by a Lutheran minister. I get conflicted about Catholics quite a bit. I get the great patience of my current priest, then when I come to this forum, it is pretty much “Our way or the Highway” mentality. Why is that? May God Bless you and your family this Christmas season!

Ed

Luther unleashed quite a movement. Even if He and Pope Leo had sat down and reconciled, the people still were up in arms about it. As I noted the Monarchs now had reason to take the Church’s power and land. Without Luther would the Reformation have died? Well it would’ve been severely weakened, but if another leader emerged, there’s the possibility that the Reformation would’ve continued in one form or another.

 

[AirLiner]

You said a mouthful there and I totally agree. The mark has been completely missed because there is no understanding of who Christ really is and what he begins to do within us once our faith in his Salvation begins to grow and manifest itself deeper within us. It’s great to see someone here who understands this apart from all of the human rheoric.

I find it quite hypocritical that you claim there is no understanding of who Christ is and what he begins to do with us, yet you are willing to admit that he wants Salvation for us, that he has Church on Earth, that he wants us to obey the Bible. It’s by the same reasoning you come to these conclusions that I’m proposing that His Church must exist and cannot fall into error.

 

[Justy90]

I find it quite hypocritical that you claim there is no understanding of who Christ is and what he begins to do with us, yet you are willing to admit that he wants Salvation for us, that he has Church on Earth, that he wants us to obey the Bible. It’s by the same reasoning you come to these conclusions that I’m proposing that His Church must exist and cannot fall into error.

But if you don’t understand what it is to grow in Christ then it begs the question.

 

[ronin67]

Luther unleashed quite a movement. Even if He and Pope Leo had sat down and reconciled, the people still were up in arms about it. As I noted the Monarchs now had reason to take the Church’s power and land. Without Luther would the Reformation have died? Well it would’ve been severely weakened, but if another leader emerged, there’s the possibility that the Reformation would’ve continued in one form or another.

Thank you for the answer sir. I don’t know (other then what I read about Martin Luther), but I don’t believe his intent was to spark a revolution. Many who wished to rebel may have used this as an excuse (Battle cry against the Catholic Church), but I don’t believe he meant the break-up of the one true/original church. That is just my opinion on the matter.

Take Care and May God Bless!

Ed

 

[AirLiner]

But if you don’t understand what it is to grow in Christ then it begs the question.

No it doesn’t, and the reasoning in my premises still stands.

 

[AirLiner]

Thank you for all the (name removed by moderator)ut people. I’d like to reformat the argument based on the responses I’ve gotten.

Okay so this argument is solely aimed at Christians.

**A Church is God’s way of providing moral guidance to humanity, therefore it’s a product of God’s intervention. However why would God provide a Church only to let it fall into error? It’s just illogical.

There’s the counter argument that there is no Church Institution, only the Scriptures. However why would God provide moral guidance through a medium that has so many honest yet conflicting interpretations? He might as well have not provided moral guidance at all. Again, its illogical.

There’s also the argument that we can’t know what God would do or why therefore my approach is flawed. As I noted this is hypocritical thinking. Christians know that God wants salvation for us, that he sent Christ, that he has provided the Bible, etc. I should be able to apply reason in order to understand the nature and existence of His Church**.