Church, churches and denominations.

[JohnT58]

I i do not think that a woman having one child after another is a good thing they need time to develop a bond with their children they do not really get that when they have a child and then fall pregnant a couple of months later with the next one)

Hi, JohnT58,

I didn’t really understand a word of this -

On Contraception
2370 cont. …In contrast, 'every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the …

But am I right in thinking that what you meant was; contraception is wrong and evil?
I think that’s what you meant…
In many many ways I totally agree with you (if that really is what you were saying).
To indulge in sexual activities but to not take responsibility for the fact that life comes from it, is actually very wrong I think. God didn’t make us that way. Obviously there is some thing wrong with it.

Its straight from the Catechism.

And for Sammie;same source:
On Regulation of Births
2368 … For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood…
2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.

 

[guanophore]

:( No, no, no! They are Churches! I know that as a catholic you feel the need to state that protestant churches are not in any way like the catholic churches,

This is false, Zundrah. Catholics do not, and should not, feel the need to make any such statement. On the contrary, to the extent that Protestants have retained Apostolic Teaching, we have much in common.

but that is no reason to put them down…

Speaking the truth in love is not a “put down”. WHat puts people down is confirming them in error, and failing to promote Truth.

Capital C or lower case c, you can't put down Jesus Christ's church...

There is only on Church. All who are validly baptized are members of it. Jesus knows who they are. God has revealed to us that the Church is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. All Protestant communities are lacking in one or more of these four key elements, to a greater or lesser degree.

I think this is down to conditioning of what the catholic church has taught you!
Call them churches not denominations. I don’t discriminate against any of them, I love them all with all my heart because Jesus Christ blesses them all with miracles, healing and through their worship too.

I suppose to an extent this is true. The catholic Church has conditioned us in what the Apostles believed and taught, and these are the four elements of the valid Church build by Christ.

They are denominations. They each exist and define themselves by how they differ from the Catholic Church, founded by Christ, and built upon the Apostles and Prophets. This is not 'discrimminating against them" it is just a statement of fact. Of course the HS works through these ecclesial communities to bring people to Himself.

Don’t you see that we are all the same because we were baptized all the same? - in the name of the Father, the Son and the holy spirit!
Come on, think about it.

No, we are not “all the same”. True, by virtue of valid baptism, we are all made members of His Body, the Church. However, all those who have rejected part of theApostolic Teaching are imperfectly joined.

…umm, okay then. But even when I was in a protestant church I loved the catholic churches too! Now that I am in a catholic church, I still love the protestant churches too! They both contain the holy spirit and they both preach the same Christ.

Of course we are all called to love one another. Recognizing deficiency does not mean we are unloving! However, other ecclesial communites do not contain the HS in the same way, and some do not preach the same Christ. Some preach so differently that the Apostles and their disciples would call them heretics - and indeed did call people in their own time that believed such things.

I am a protestant and i am proud to be one,

What are you so proud to protest? Why would one find pride in protesting that which was established by Christ?

 I may not agree with other peoples views on different subjects but i will certainly not say that their religion is wrong,

The Catholic Church does not do this either. However, the Church has the duty to define and defend the Truth. It is necessary to identify heresy and error when and where it occurs. It is not intended to be derogatory, but to preserve and safeguard the flock.

1 Tim 1:3

3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine,

It has always been the duty of bishops to preserve right doctrine, and to prevent errors from being taught.

it has been clearly stated to me that the catholic church was one of the first but i do not feel that this fact gives that branch of religion

Well, Sammie, you are suffering from some errors here. Jesus only founded One Church. He only has One Body. The Catholic Church is not “one of the first”. It is the one that Jesus founded upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets. It is not a “branch of religion”. The branches occurred when men departed from Catholic teaching, and developed theologies and “different gospels” from what the Apostles believed and taught. These are called “protesatant”.

the right to claim supremacy over other factions,

I am not sure what you mean by “claim supremacy”. It is not about “supremacy”. In fact, Jesus was clear that this model is worldly, and should not be used by Christians. IT is about Truth. Jesus promised that the HS would prevent the Catholic Church from falling into error. This promise does not apply to those who separate themselves from the Apostolic Teaching, no matter how “proud” they might be to do so.

if we all accepted that there were differences and that we believe different things then there would be no need to fight because there would be more tolerance of others and their thoughts feelings and beliefs.

I agree that it is important to accept differences, and avoid fighting. the conflicts between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland are a great grief to God’s heart. However, though we can tolerate persons who have embraced heresies, it is wrong for us to condone such heresies as acceptable.

 

[guanophore]

That would be nice (to join all the churches) but it is very easy for a protestant to argue that Christ meant it metaphorically. That he just meant “church”, since catholic isn’t mentioned in the bible.

Oh contraire Zundrah! The earliest use of the word Catholic we can find is in the book of Acts, describing the One Church founded by Christ.

Acts 9:31

31 So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Sama’ria had peace and was built up; and walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit it was multiplied.

In this passage, the Greek translated here “the church throughout all” is Kath holos (Catholic). It means universal, the same everywhere.

I know the catholic church is the one true church of course, but I still love going into the Methodist churches! - I also pray for the glorious day that we will all unite in, Jesus name. That would be the greatest achievement of humanity.

This will one day happen, but it will be in spite of humans, and not because fo their achievement. God Himself will unite us, kicking and screaming no doubt.

If you are referring to the fact that Catholics don’t agree with the use of contraception - then have no fears! It is not a sin to use it!

Zundrah, it is inappropriate for you to promote behaviors that are considered mortal sins. If you cannot accept this teaching of the Church, it is a very serious matter, and in the meantime, encouraging others is leading them into sin also.

 

[guanophore]

I meant no offense but that is how i see things like not being allowed to use contraception children are a major responsibility and i do not think that a woman having one child after another is a good thing they need time to develop a bond with their children they do not really get that when they have a child and then fall pregnant a couple of months later with the next one, i have seen it happen because i have a few catholic friends, and yes i am somewhat ignorant of the catholic church because i am not a catholic, my comment was based on me observing my friends and not a general rule for all catholic people.

Your comment represents the ignorance of Catholic teaching and the strong prejudice against Catholic values. That is why it was offensive.

If this sentiment (which happens to be one the Catholic Church shares) is all that is preventing you from becoming Catholic, then a study of NFP should immediately cure that problem! You are objecting to something that does not exist, except in popular mythology and anti-catholic prejudice, which you have represented very well.

 

[Zundrah]

Zundrah, it is inappropriate for you to promote behaviors that are considered mortal sins.

 

[guanophore]

It is not right for you to come to a Catholic forum and promote behaviors that are considered mortal sins for Catholics.

I never did that!

Well, let’s see…

If you are referring to the fact that Catholics don’t agree with the use of contraception - then have no fears! It is not a sin to use it!

You are telling another member “have no fear - it is not a sin”, yet you are admitting you know that “Catholics don’t agree”. You are correct, especially in America, the majority of Catholics spurn this teaching of the Church, which is a grave matter. However, what individual Catholics agree or don’t agree about is irrelevant. What matters is what the Church teaches, and that is that contraception is against the commandments of God to “be fruitful, and multiply”.

Well I was never told that it was a sin to use contraception, but now I do!

Why did you think “Catholics don’t agree with contraception”? Did you think this is just something the Church does to take up paper space? The Church does not go to such lengths to guide the faithful over trivial matters. This doctrine is to prevent people from going through the gates of hell!

I never encouraged her, but I guess my post on that did look a bit creepy…

When you tell someone who is acting against the commandments of God to “have no fear - it is not a sin”, you are doing the same thing that the snake did in the garden of Eden. This is considered leading others into sin. If you did it in ignorance, then your culpability is diminished,but it sure does look like you are not as ignorant as you claim. Before you consider advising people to spurn the teaching of the church in the future, you might consider finding out why the church teaches it.

People use it every where and all the time though. Imagine how over populated the world would be!

God has other ways of controlling population besides murder. The reason that contraception is considered a grave evil is because the methods involved destroy the embryo. In that sense, it is no different than abortion, just earlier in the process.

 

[Zundrah]

Guanophore, you never tire do you?
Who needs a bible or catechism when you are around?

 

[Bill_Pick]

Some say denominations while others say churches. But I would just refer to them as churches. Since it is only the doctrines that make them different. The building is still there for the same reasons though.

What is your personal thought on this?

We have ONE Church and that Church is thw Cathloic Church,Called the Roman Cathloic Church akk Non-cathloiic church ard called Deno,omations.

 

[peary]

OK, the Catholic Church recognises itself as the only Church.
Protestants are organised into denominations.

1. Should we at all times refer to them as denominations, or can one refer to them as a Protestant Church.
2. Should the buildings in which they worship be referred to as places of worship, rather than as churches?

I’m not sure now, if I’m confused, or if others are.
I understood that within the Catholic Church, there is Roman Catholic/Western Rite/(Latin Rite) and Eastern Rite Churches(I can’t remember their names exactly).

The Orthodox Churches are not in communion with the Catholic Church, so are they Churches or denominations?

When people refer to Eastern Orthodox Church, do they mean Eastern Rite, or is there an Eastern Orthodox Church in communion with the Catholic Church as some peoples associated statements seem to suggest this. (Or are people genuinely confused and mixing things up)

Pope Benedict XVI refers to protestant churches as “ecclesial communities” that are not in union with the Catholic Church. I see no reason as to why we cannot refer to them in this way. I personally call their places of worship ‘churches’ since that is what they are.

In my view, orthodox churches not in communion with the Catholic Church are schismatic.

 

[thirdn6]

One friend called another friend an “Engineer” and the man really loved it!!! He even proclaims it!!!
He never really was an engineer but he was so smart he managed to get more jobs.
Churches…? Probably the same reason…
But there is only one Catholic Church.

 

[Zundrah]

This is probably true, and I think I am becoming a catheteria catholic…this is not what I want but because I am getting so many different answers for the same thing. But I hope I will get through.
I have been taught many things on this site but when ever I try to answer other peoples question on this site I keep getting accused of lying and teaching heresys. But it was what I was taught on this site!

 

[guanophore]

This is probably true, and I think I am becoming a catheteria catholic…this is not what I want but because I am getting so many different answers for the same thing. But I hope I will get through.
I have been taught many things on this site but when ever I try to answer other peoples question on this site I keep getting accused of lying and teaching heresys. But it was what I was taught on this site!

I appreciate your enthusiasm to share your knowledge and experience. However, all of us on CAF are private individuals, and may be sharing our own private perceptions and experience. Some of us work really hard to answer questions according to what the Church teaches, but we are still fallible and incomplete in our knowledge. You have rightly conceded that some questions are better answered by more experienced apologists. Keep reading, and when you are not sure, consult the catechism. You have a lot of very good questions. Think of yourself as a fruit that will grow with proper care (light, water, feeding). Some of that feeding is pungent organic matter, and one must separate the useful from the not useful.

 

[peary]

HUH? Where did THAT come from?

 

[Zundrah]

That was Sammie who said that, but what I would like to know is exactly how and where she came to this conclusion?

 

[guanophore]

That was Sammie who said that, but what I would like to know is exactly how and where she came to this conclusion?

Traditionally, Catholics received all children as gifts of God. They were seen as blessings, and assets to the family, not liabilities, penalties, or drains on the resources. As a result, Catholics always had larger families, especially those who received them as a fruitful expression of their love for one another.

With the acceptance of birth control in Christian circles, humans took into their own hands the timing of the blessing of life. And with the concurrent industrial revolution, it also became common to see children as “another mouth to feed”, rather than a blessing from God- an asset to the family.

Most people who say such things are just reflecting a common ignorance of Catholic Teaching on the nature of family planning, prejudice against the Apostolic Teaching on the nature of procreation, and selfishness (putting their own wants and desires above what God might want). It is more expedient to blame the church than to take responsibility for oneself.