Church collections for large Catholic families

[Rob_s_Wife]

What about people who would love to have a large family, but need Mom in the workforce, how would they feel about subsidizing someone else to have a bunch of kids who get their Mommy around all day, thanks to the generosity of others.

What about a single Mother of a couple of kids who is scraping by, yet an intact family gets help merely based on the number of kids they have?

You’ve got to be kidding me? Every single state in this nation has child care subsidies for low income mothers. If anyone isn’t going to qualify, it’s a mother who is married or even just living with someone.

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**Personally, I think it’s stupid. Why pay a mother to pay a babysitter so she can work to earn pennies and continue the cycle?:whacky: **

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**I’d rather pay for her to actually care for her own kid until at least age 5 or 6. That just seems a more logical use of funds and certainly a better benefit to family and society. If paying for daycare at all, I’d rather insist it be for while she is getting an education. By the time the kid is in school, her family and society would be better off. At the least, I think low income mothers should be given the choice of using those daycare subsidies to help them stay home if that’s what they want to do. (And I understand not every mom wants to stay home. Many don’t.) The $ amount isn’t enough to pay for it all, it’s a help. And if we’re going to help a mother who wants to work out of the home, then I think we should help the mother that works to stay at home.

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I can think of no better use of my tax dollars or my collection plate money than to encourage and aid family unity.

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Again, I don’t think it should have anything to do with how many children they have.

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A key element being missed here is that if a family is struggling with the 1 or 2 they have, you have to help them then or they won’t even consider more. Likewise, you cannot assume a couple wouldn’t need help if they are willing to have more.

 

[WenckebachCath]

Why shouldn’t women who are poor receive help? Why are you so condemning? Not everyone has the same fortune to have a loving husband who is able to support the family.

Robs Wife, you sound pretty judgemental in your post. There are many Catholic women who work outside the home who do a very good job of raising their children. And there are Catholic women who married losers and end up alone. And yes, Catholic women make mistakes and bear children out of wedlock and raise their children alone.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

Why shouldn’t women who are poor receive help? Why are you so condemning?
What in the world are you writing about? I did not say poor women shouldn’t receive help. In fact, I said they certainly should receive help.
Not everyone has the same fortune to have a loving husband who is able to support the family.
What’s that got to do with anything? Whether they get help is based on income. It shouldn’t matter whether they are married poor or single poor. Poor is poor.

Robs Wife, you sound pretty judgemental in your post.
**I disagree.
**There are many Catholic women who work outside the home who do a very good job of raising their children.
**I did not say otherwise. Not once. **
What I said was that it doesn’t make financial sense to fund a 3rd party to the job that a mother can do better. I also said if we are willing to pay a 3rd party to watch the kids for moms who work outside the home, then it should at least be an option for SAHM to recieve those same funds to help them stay home if that’s what they want to do.
And there are Catholic women who married losers and end up alone. And yes, Catholic women make mistakes and bear children out of wedlock and raise their children alone.
So what’s your point? I did not condemn anyone. YOU were very judgemental with these comments:

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how would they feel about subsidizing someone else to have a bunch of kids who get their Mommy around all day, thanks to the generosity of others

yet an intact family gets help merely based on the number of kids they have

 

[Jennifer_J]

At the university I attend, there is a ministry for moms in which Catholic students assist mothers with the the struggles of raising children. The group, locally, is a great success. Should not the Church advocate groups like ministry for moms on a more universal basis, and provide the funds for them in a specific, annual and universal Church collection, promulgated from Rome itself?

This is the part I like the most! What a wonderful ministry! I wish I could figure out how to get that started around here, because I could use it! LOL

As for the Church offerring financial help for large families, I think the Church would help anyone who needed it. That’s how it’s supposed to work anyway. I do wish that Catholic schools were more affordable for larger families. Our school tries, but it’s still a huge burden. I think offering other support, such as the above ministry, reinforcing the blessing of large families through homilies and welcoming them at Mass, making it easier for families of any size to participate in Parish life activities, etc. Small ways to help out emotionally and physically, not finanically, necessarily.

God bless,
Jennifer

 

[Julianna]

You’re right that the Church shouldn’t promote large families by simply putting forth financial incentives, even though countries like France might do something like this.

The US does it as well, it’s called welfare.

The Church, however, needs to get across that it (and God) desires large families, that small families are not as acceptable. I remember a saying from a monk on Mt. Athos. Now, the monk is Orthodox, but I think what he says is true. He says that a married couple which has two children fulfils the commandment to “be fruitful.” But a couple that has four or more children has fulfilled the second part, “and multiply,” and therefore is truly blessed by God. A couple which willingly has less than two has not fulfilled God’s commandment.

I don’t care who said it, I don’t believe that my family, with 2 children is less blessed by God than someone who had a herd of kids. My mother in law had 9, her son and I had 2, this is what we could afford in today’s economy. It is called “reality”. Unless you have Trump, Hilton, or Gates as your last name, and money is no worry, have all you want. I would ask the monk (who are usually not married, don’t have children, nor live in this century, "if you think this is so, why be a monk, get married, have a brood of kids and fast forward to 2007.

Maybe someone creative can phrase it in such a way that the monetary incentive appeared as only a positive spillover.

How in the world is a monetary incentive positive? The welfare system has proven to be a total failure. Perhaps you are thinking that all this kiddos will be butts in the pews…maybe…maybe not.

In any case, If it were still the good ole’ days, the Church could simply give a 500 year indulgence for each new child born.

 

[Bella3502]

Should not the Church apply this principle today to large Catholic families in which the parents are only acting according to what they know is right and true but which are plighted by the great struggles, financial and personal, they face? /quote]

I would not financially support these families.

We should apply the same reasoning/thought processs that “we” as Catholics are trying to force on AIDS stricken familes in Africa.

We should be telling them that if they (the couple) cannot provide for their children, they should practice abstinence. If abstinence is good enough (from a Catholic standpoint) for a couple with a deadly disease, then it is certainly good enough for an able bodied couple who can’t make enough money to feed and clothe their family. They should practice abstinence until such time when they can afford more children.

 

[ktp]

Unless you have Trump, Hilton, or Gates as your last name, and money is no worry, have all you want.

I most respectfully disagree with this. We have 9 children. My husband has almost single-handedly supported us on a rather blue-collar, no education required, barely average income sort of a job for most of our marriage. Up until we moved to a metro area three years ago, we could easily live on his income. Everything I earned went into savings. DH had trips to Europe (to visit family), I had cross country trips to visit mine, I bought a harp, the boys got to go to scout camp, our daughter had horse riding lessons… etc.

We knew a family with eleven children who lived on a single income, with the father working as a teacher at a Catholic school.

You really don’t need to be wealthy to raise a large family. It’s mostly about how you spend what you do have.

 

[sing]

Goblin_Taters;1896684:

Should not the Church apply this principle today to large Catholic families in which the parents are only acting according to what they know is right and true but which are plighted by the great struggles, financial and personal, they face? /quote]

I would not financially support these families.

We should apply the same reasoning/thought processs that “we” as Catholics are trying to force on AIDS stricken familes in Africa.

We should be telling them that if they (the couple) cannot provide for their children, they should practice abstinence. If abstinence is good enough (from a Catholic standpoint) for a couple with a deadly disease, then it is certainly good enough for an able bodied couple who can’t make enough money to feed and clothe their family. They should practice abstinence until such time when they can afford more children.

ha.For some reason, I laughed while reading this, and also agree wholeheartedly.

I grew up 10 child family with a stay at home mom. We were quite often given financial aid by churches and charitable organizations, I’m going to be honest and say it feels degrading. Maybe that’s just my pride, but nothing was more humiliating to me than seeing people leave money at our house, or, more often, trash bags full of hand-me-downs.

 

[apricot_yogurt]

Abstinence is all very well and good, and indeed the church encourages couples to prayerfully discern whether it is prudent to have another child.
What about the family facing poverty after the children are already here-in the womb or out-say through job loss/berevement/illness? The couple discerned just fine x months ago.
For example my parents existed for years on unemployment benefits-a laughable sum- we didn’t have a car, we shopped at jumble sales, we didn’t take holidays as such. We were poor. Yet we always had a healthy fresh meal on the table, better than our well-off latch- key peers, who heated up something in the microwave when they got home. We walked a lot, we played second-hand or home-made board games. I believe that many people would have thought my parents fools for having 5 children, they would have advised them to restrain themselves, yet my parents believed that another child was feasible for them, and that they could afford another-how much is breastmilk anyway? The important thing is we are here, and as adults can make our own lives. My younger brother is doing his phd, investigating cancer treatments and scanning technologies.Does it matter to the world now that he wore hand-me downs and shared a room with his brothers?

 

[Jennifer_J]

I most respectfully disagree with this. We have 9 children. My husband has almost single-handedly supported us on a rather blue-collar, no education required, barely average income sort of a job for most of our marriage. Up until we moved to a metro area three years ago, we could easily live on his income. Everything I earned went into savings. DH had trips to Europe (to visit family), I had cross country trips to visit mine, I bought a harp, the boys got to go to scout camp, our daughter had horse riding lessons… etc.

We knew a family with eleven children who lived on a single income, with the father working as a teacher at a Catholic school.

You really don’t need to be wealthy to raise a large family. It’s mostly about how you spend what you do have.

I couldn’t agree more! Having a large family in this day and age is often a matter of priorities (and where you live). I couldn’t manage my family of 7 if I lived in San Francisco or Philadelphia or any large urban area. However, in MN, we can manage quite nicely. Now your job may require you to live in an urban area, but there are often ways to get around such a problem, by moving to the suburbs and commuting or other such ideas. To say you have to be rich to have more than 2.3 children is not reality…

Jennifer

 

[Jennifer_J]

Bella3502;1901725:

ha.For some reason, I laughed while reading this, and also agree wholeheartedly.

I grew up 10 child family with a stay at home mom. We were quite often given financial aid by churches and charitable organizations, I’m going to be honest and say it feels degrading. Maybe that’s just my pride, but nothing was more humiliating to me than seeing people leave money at our house, or, more often, trash bags full of hand-me-downs.

It shouldn’t make you feel bad that people WANTED to help you out. Nothing MADE them do that, they did it out of the kindness of their heart and wanted to help support your family. I think it’s beautiful. I have 5 children and people give us hand me downs all the time and I’ve had a lady during the Parish rummage sale hand me money. I tried to give it back, but she just loves our family so much, it was the only way she could think of to show us that. Why hurt her feelings? I think I saved it for a while, until something came up that we needed that I didn’t have the money for–I would have donated it had we not ended up needing it. What a blessing! I always pass on the clothes we don’t need to other people or to our local Catholic Charities. I admit I would hate having to ask for help (pride), but help freely given is a blessing to the giver even more than to the givee…

Jennifer

 

[marybee]

WOW, this is a great post and something i have considered for a long time. Truely, I come from a HUGE family. 11 kids to be exact. I can totally relate! I went to the dentist a total of three times growing up. My parents could not have anyone of us doing anything “extracarricular” such as a playing a sport or instrument, no bikes, nothing. Now that I have my own family this is something that I consider. I am going back to school because we can hardly afford to provide for three children. I can not even imagine having eight more! Unfortunately, most families can not survive on one income, but the “rules” on birth control never changed. So now we have families who have the choice of either both parents working and having more than 2.1 children or having a small family with the one income. It is an incredibly difficult decision to make. Of course I know about NFP etc. but sometimes we are human and cant do it perfectly and are blessed with more children. This program would have been perfect for a family like mine while growing up. I dont resent being brought up in a big family, I liked it. I do however regret that we could not do ANYTHING or go anywhere or be a part of any group activity that required money. Heck, I even remember having to be the only person who could not attend a field trip that everyone else in my class went to due to my “health” problems, which was my moms excuse when money was tight. Truely, this could be a great opportunity to help big families and I am all for it.

 

[Paganus]

Interesting question. I do see where you’re coming from: if they’re insisting on no birth control, why not help out with the logical consequences.

Another way to view it is that God insists on no artificial birth control and that God will provide for your needs.

 

[marybee]

Another way to view it is that God insists on no artificial birth control and that God will provide for your needs.

Sorry, that statement seems rather foolish. Are you expecting God to come down on earth and hand people food and money? Of course not, that is why we have poor collections and tithing etc. We are God’s hands and we have to help each other. God provides for us through other people. For example, you have a job and you get a paycheck, that may directly come from your boss’ bank account and God allowed and willed for that to happen. If God just provides for us why are their so many starving children in the world? Does God not care about them? Of course he does, he has given us the tools to help them and we dont live up to that expectation, that is why people are without food, clothing, shelter, and medical care.
We must help eachother and share our gifts.

 

[jc-servant]

I don’t see how something like this could work on a practical level. We already have food stamps, food banks, clothing donations, TANF and other subsidies in the USA if people are truly in need.

One poster mentioned not getting to go on school field trips as a result of being poor. This is not necessarily something that should be funded by another family which may sacrifice luxuries in order to donate to the “poor” only to find out other children are enjoying “extras” on their dime while their kids stay at home. At our parish we help each other out on an informal basis regardless of family size with anonymous donors covering fees, retreat costs, etc without resorting to 2nd collections merely for “large” families.

It could cause some problems on where to draw the line and inhibit people from making donations at all during the collections if they had questions about how the money was used. Is a field trip too much or perhaps a new large van merely because of the number of children or perhaps an annual vacation to a destination like Disney? Lots of people would draw the line in different places.

 

[marybee]

I don’t see how something like this could work on a practical level. We already have food stamps, food banks, clothing donations, TANF and other subsidies in the USA if people are truly in need.

One poster mentioned not getting to go on school field trips as a result of being poor. This is not necessarily something that should be funded by another family which may sacrifice luxuries in order to donate to the “poor” only to find out other children are enjoying “extras” on their dime while their kids stay at home. At our parish we help each other out on an informal basis regardless of family size with anonymous donors covering fees, retreat costs, etc without resorting to 2nd collections merely for “large” families.

It could cause some problems on where to draw the line and inhibit people from making donations at all during the collections if they had questions about how the money was used. Is a field trip too much or perhaps a new large van merely because of the number of children or perhaps an annual vacation to a destination like Disney? Lots of people would draw the line in different places.

Well aside from the field trips i also mentioned dentist visits! Is this a luxury that only the “rich” get privileges to? Sorry, Dont talk the talk if you cant walk the walk! Go tell everyone to have big families (not you) and tell everyone to use NFP, which is undoubtedly less reliable than other forms of bc. yes we can all point to stats that say otherwise but all you have to do is look at families that use it. Yes i know they are more “open”, or they arent “using” it properly, but the plain old fat truth is their is many disadvantages of NFP, one being if you mess up once during a fertile time, you are pregnant. And yes that child is a gift from God almighty, but needs food clothing and shelter nonetheless!

 

[sing]

sing;1902538:

It shouldn’t make you feel bad that people WANTED to help you out. Nothing MADE them do that, they did it out of the kindness of their heart and wanted to help support your family. I think it’s beautiful. I have 5 children and people give us hand me downs all the time and I’ve had a lady during the Parish rummage sale hand me money. I tried to give it back, but she just loves our family so much, it was the only way she could think of to show us that. Why hurt her feelings? I think I saved it for a while, until something came up that we needed that I didn’t have the money for–I would have donated it had we not ended up needing it. What a blessing! I always pass on the clothes we don’t need to other people or to our local Catholic Charities. I admit I would hate having to ask for help (pride), but help freely given is a blessing to the giver even more than to the givee…

Jennifer

I said it had some pride in it. i was admitting i’m not guiltless. but there also is a sort of weirdness about watching your parents have child after child and not be able to support them on their own.

 

[Julianna]

Well aside from the field trips i also mentioned dentist visits! Is this a luxury that only the “rich” get privileges to? Sorry, Dont talk the talk if you cant walk the walk! Go tell everyone to have big families (not you) and tell everyone to use NFP, which is undoubtedly less reliable than other forms of bc. yes we can all point to stats that say otherwise but all you have to do is look at families that use it. Yes i know they are more “open”, or they arent “using” it properly, but the plain old fat truth is their is many disadvantages of NFP, one being if you mess up once during a fertile time, you are pregnant. And yes that child is a gift from God almighty, but needs food clothing and shelter nonetheless!

marybee, exactly. My husband is one of 9. He told me their house was very small and he and some of his brothers had to sleep in the basement. In the town he lived in, it was not uncommon to see large families. It was a very rural area, taxes were low, with lots of farms, dirt roads. Had lived in a large city, they could not have made it. Yes, there are disadvantages to NFP…it’s easier to get pregnant, and it kills spontanity. Children do need food, shelter and clothing…and lets not forget, doctors, dentists, and other healthcare needs which without insurance, you can forget it. I am one of 3, and I remember when my dad lost his job during downsizing in the 70’s. My mom was a SAHM and did not graduate from high school. Unemployment only goes so far, so she started doing sewing/alterations for the neighbors. We ended up on food stamps and AFDC. Our neighbors shunned us and you could hear the tsk tsk tsk behind our backs. No way would I subject my children to that, and the way my DH grew up he felt the same. With the 2 we have and both of us working…college etc…it gets really expensive. If we didn’t have insurance, I have no idea what we would do, especially when my son was diagnosed HFA.

Jenn J…my husband grew up in the northern part of MI, very small town. Yes, you are correct, it is easier, but jobs are not as plentiful as they are elsewhere. Small town midwest kids don’t get the tsk tsk tsk behind their backs, and aren’t made fun of because they wear hand me downs. In a metropolis like Cary or Raleigh, our children would be subjected to constant ridicule. And forget Catholic school…we could not afford it. We barely could afford it for 2 kids up until we moved…and I even worked there!..no discount either. If we had a choice between 2 children, we could afford to bring into the world and live at chest level income, vs. 5 or more and live with our heads just barely underwater…we would choose 2 children. To subject 4 or 5 more children to a life of scraping by is not fair to them. 2007 is not like 1947.

No I do not think there should be church collections for large families. If you choose to practice the church’s teachings and use NFP or abstinence and it works for you…great. It doesn’t work for every one. Take a glance around your parish on Sunday…and count the number of families who have been in the parish 10 or more years…then count how many children they have with them. It’s a no brainer.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

WOW, this is a great post and something i have considered for a long time. Truely, I come from a HUGE family. 11 kids to be exact. I can totally relate! I went to the dentist a total of three times growing up. My parents could not have anyone of us doing anything “extracarricular” such as a playing a sport or instrument, no bikes, nothing.
What’s that got to do with the size of the famliy? I was the youngest of 4 by 10 years and had less than mentioned here. I suppose those things are all well and nice, but they are not neccessary to the bringing up of decent, loving, smart children.

Now that I have my own family this is something that I consider.
**hmm, I did too. Briefly. My dh is an only child from a family significantly better off than I was. He did EVERYTHING. Band, sports, debates, trips, you name it. He says it didn’t contribute one bit to making him a better person today, not as a man, a father, a husband, a son, an employee, or in any other way that is what matters when we are consdiering what is important in raising adults. He couldn’t care less if our kids never do any of it. If we have the spare time and the spare money and feel like it - then we might do something as the urge strikes us. But other than that, it is not a factor in whether we have children or not. **

So now we have families who have the choice of either both parents working and having more than 2.1 children or having a small family with the one income. It is an incredibly difficult decision to make.
I completely disagree. The reverse seems to be the case. The smaller the family, the more likely the family is to have a 2 income household.

Well aside from the field trips i also mentioned dentist visits! Is this a luxury that only the “rich” get privileges to? Sorry, Dont talk the talk if you cant walk the walk!
Yes. It is. Sorta. Most of the time dentistry is cosmetic. For other issues there is assistance and many dentists will work with the parents on the billing. If your parents had too much pride to look into that, then I’m sorry and share that history.

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If your biggest gripe is that you didn’t like wearing hand-me-downs, didn’t get to go on field trips, and have crooked teeth - then your walk was a nice stroll compared to mine and it wouldn’t hurt to call your mama and say "Thank you!"

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needs food clothing and shelter nonetheless
Yes, but you aren’t griping about those things. All of your needs you received one way or another. You may not have liked how you got them, but it appears you did get them.

I’ll repeat this, a need is a need and family size shouldn’t matter.

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**And no one should make assumptions based on family size. (small or large) It’s ignorant. It’s petty. And all too often, it’s just mean and wrong. **

 

[mark_a]

Ultimately, my question is: If the Church comes down so firmly against birth control, should it not also in charity ask its more prosperous members in their love for the Church to provide support for those large families so that they might better thrive?

Seems like it kinda nullifies the whole “trust God” mentality the Church tries instill in us.

Forced assistance just doesn’t work.

But I sure wish the Church had a group health insurance policy I could latch on to.