Church Doctrine Not Infalible!

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I tried to reply to somone I believe it was Ceasar stating that Catholic doctorine is infalible." While I respect and admire that persons faith, Catholic doctorine is not infalible, Church DOGMA is. Ceasar was saying that different preist cannot teach different things because the church has a clear and correct stance on most of these matters.

This is incorrect. Cathloic traditions and doctorine have changed over the years. Vatican 2 being the biggest example of this (where traditions like holding mass in latin were changed).

Also recently, things like limbo (where the church believed that unbabtized babies went) have been removed from catholic doctorine.

I do not have time to talk about things like ex cathedra, but that is the only time that somthing new become dogma.
 
:confused:

I am pretty sure that doctrine and dogma are synonyms.

thesaurus.reference.com/browse/doctrine
thefreedictionary.com/doctrine
education.yahoo.com/reference/thesaurus/entry/doctrine

But if you want to break it down to the modern understanding of the words.

Doctrine: What the church teaches

Dogma: What the church believes

and even using that, they are synomymous in that the that the Church teaches and what the church believes are the exact same thing.

And while traditions may have changed and may be different the doctrines of the church have been the same since the beginning, so Caesar was right in that priests are not allowed to teach doctrine different from the church because the doctrine is infallible.
 
I’m with the others here: Catholic doctrine and dogma are the same thing, and thus both are infallible.

Jeremy
 
When Jesus said “*Whatsoever you bind on earth is bound in Heaven, whatsoever you loose on earth is loosed in Heaven” *It really left no margin for error. If the Lord backs whatever they say, how can they be wrong? And if you cant be wrong, would that not be infallible?
 
AdamSteven said:
I tried to reply to somone I believe it was Ceasar stating that Catholic doctorine is infalible." While I respect and admire that persons faith, Catholic doctorine is not infalible, Church DOGMA is. Ceasar was saying that different preist cannot teach different things because the church has a clear and correct stance on most of these matters.

This is incorrect. Cathloic traditions and doctorine have changed over the years. Vatican 2 being the biggest example of this (where traditions like holding mass in latin were changed).

Also recently, things like limbo (where the church believed that unbabtized babies went) have been removed from catholic doctorine.

I do not have time to talk about things like ex cathedra, but that is the only time that somthing new become dogma.
Click to expand...
Please be advised that changing the rule that mass can be said in the vernacular as opposed to Latin is a matter of discipline and not doctrine.

Limbo was not a hard and fast doctrine taught by the Church. Limbo is a theological speculation that was extremely popular within the Church but was never taught as infallibly binding. You are free to believe in this speculation or you can believe in the current alternative that we simply don’t know what happens to unbaptized babies and that we simply leave it up to the mercy of God.

The Church does not and cannot change those things which have been infallibly defined.
 
Here’s some info I found on Catholic Exchange:

The term “doctrine” can be used generally to refer to all of the Church’s teachings. In addition, we can say that dogma is a subset of doctrine — all dogmas are doctrines, but not all doctrines are dogmas. A doctrine is a teaching of the universal Church proposed as necessary for belief by the faithful. Dogmas, properly speaking, are such teachings that are set forth to be believed as divinely revealed (Catechism, no. 88; cf. 891-892). When differentiating from dogma, we use the term “doctrine” to signify teachings that are either definitively proposed or those that are proposed as true, but not in a definitive manner (cf. Catechism, nos. 88, 891-92).
 
gelsbern said:
:confused:

I am pretty sure that doctrine and dogma are synonyms.

thesaurus.reference.com/browse/doctrine
thefreedictionary.com/doctrine
education.yahoo.com/reference/thesaurus/entry/doctrine

But if you want to break it down to the modern understanding of the words.

Doctrine: What the church teaches

Dogma: What the church believes

and even using that, they are synomymous in that the that the Church teaches and what the church believes are the exact same thing.

And while traditions may have changed and may be different the doctrines of the church have been the same since the beginning, so Caesar was right in that priests are not allowed to teach doctrine different from the church because the doctrine is infallible.
Click to expand...
Not exactly the same but both are part of the infallible teaching magisterium.
 
What Caesar claimed is correct, as those before me have shown.

Sacrosanctum concilium did not allow the use of the vernacular to celebrate the Mass. It did allow the use of the vernacular for a very few parts of the Mass like the readings and homily.

Limbo wasn’t ever a doctrine and it hasn’t been outright rejected (Unless I missed something recently). Pax dealt with this well above.
 
Gelsbern, Catholic Nick, and jemfinch,

There is a bit of a difference between doctrine and dogma. Dogma is what was revealed to the Church; doctrine is what we can logically conclude from dogma. Dogma is set and finished; doctrine develops with time as we figure new things out. But both are true and are not “taken back.”

Catholic doctrine is not infallible; it is true. Those who proclaim Catholic doctrine infallibly are infallible, but the doctrine itself is simply true. Infallible means “incapable of making a mistake;” doctrines don’t make mistakes, they are true or false, and Catholic doctrines are all true.
  • Liberian
 
the Magisterium of the Church teachings either infallibly or non-infallibly.

infallibly:
  1. papal infallibility
  2. solemn definitions of Ecumenical Councils and similar gatherings
  3. the ordinary universal Magisterium
all other teachings are non-infallible.

Non-infallibe teachings can contain errors on particular points, but never to such an extent that any error or set of errors would lead the faithful away from salvation.

dogmas refer to infallible teachings; doctrines refer to any and all teachings, both infallible and fallible.

The idea that the Magisterium can never err, or that it is always infallible, or that its non-infallible teachings are also certainly true is contrary to the clear teaching of the Catholic Church.

"With respect to the non-infallible expressions of the authentic magisterium of the Church, these should be received with religious submission of mind and will."
Address Of The Holy Father John Paul II To The Bishops From The United States Of America On Their ‘ad Limina’ Visit (Thursday, 15 October 1988)

"The theologian would accordingly be totally free to raise doubts or reject the non-infallible teaching of the Magisterium particularly in the case of specific moral norms."
[Cardinal Ratzinger, criticizing theologians who reject any and all non-infallible teachings, Instruction On The Ecclesial Vocation Of The Theologian, n. 33.]

"The preceding considerations have a particular application to the case of the theologian who might have serious difficulties, for reasons which appear to him wellfounded, in accepting a non-irreformable magisterial teaching."
[Cardinal Ratzinger, noting that only certain teachings are irreformable, Instruction On The Ecclesial Vocation Of The Theologian, n. 28.]

Ron
 
the Magisterium of the Church teachings either infallibly or non-infallibly.

infallibly:
  1. papal infallibility
  2. solemn definitions of Ecumenical Councils and similar gatherings
  3. the ordinary universal Magisterium
all other teachings are non-infallible.

Non-infallible teachings can contain errors on particular points, but never to such an extent that any error or set of errors would lead the faithful away from salvation.

The idea that the Magisterium can never err, or that it is always infallible, or that its non-infallible teachings are also certainly true is contrary to the clear teaching of the Catholic Church.

"With respect to the non-infallible expressions of the authentic magisterium of the Church, these should be received with religious submission of mind and will."
Address Of The Holy Father John Paul II To The Bishops From The United States Of America On Their ‘ad Limina’ Visit (Thursday, 15 October 1988)

"The theologian would accordingly be totally free to raise doubts or reject the non-infallible teaching of the Magisterium particularly in the case of specific moral norms."
[Cardinal Ratzinger, criticizing theologians who reject any and all non-infallible teachings, Instruction On The Ecclesial Vocation Of The Theologian, n. 33.]

"The preceding considerations have a particular application to the case of the theologian who might have serious difficulties, for reasons which appear to him wellfounded, in accepting a non-irreformable magisterial teaching."
[Cardinal Ratzinger, noting that only certain teachings are irreformable, Instruction On The Ecclesial Vocation Of The Theologian, n. 28.]

Notice that there is a different type and degree of assent for non-infallible teachings: the religious submission of will and intellect. Whereas the infallible teachings require theological assent, i.e. the assent of faith. This difference occurs because non-infallible teachings do not have the charism of certain truth.

Ron
 
Liberian said:
Gelsbern, Catholic Nick, and jemfinch,

There is a bit of a difference between doctrine and dogma. Dogma is what was revealed to the Church; doctrine is what we can logically conclude from dogma. Dogma is set and finished; doctrine develops with time as we figure new things out. But both are true and are not “taken back.”

Catholic doctrine is not infallible; it is true. Those who proclaim Catholic doctrine infallibly are infallible, but the doctrine itself is simply true. Infallible means “incapable of making a mistake;” doctrines don’t make mistakes, they are true or false, and Catholic doctrines are all true.
  • Liberian
Click to expand...
Well noted 🙂

Jeremy
 
the Magisterium of the Church teachings either infallibly or non-infallibly.

infallibly:
  1. papal infallibility
  2. solemn definitions of Ecumenical Councils and similar gatherings
  3. the ordinary universal Magisterium
all other teachings are non-infallible.

Non-infallible teachings can contain errors on particular points, but never to such an extent that any error or set of errors would lead the faithful away from salvation.

The idea that the Magisterium can never err, or that it is always infallible, or that its non-infallible teachings are also certainly true is contrary to the clear teaching of the Catholic Church.

"With respect to the non-infallible expressions of the authentic magisterium of the Church, these should be received with religious submission of mind and will."
Address Of The Holy Father John Paul II To The Bishops From The United States Of America On Their ‘ad Limina’ Visit (Thursday, 15 October 1988)

"The theologian would accordingly be totally free to raise doubts or reject the non-infallible teaching of the Magisterium particularly in the case of specific moral norms."
[Cardinal Ratzinger, criticizing theologians who reject any and all non-infallible teachings, Instruction On The Ecclesial Vocation Of The Theologian, n. 33.]

"The preceding considerations have a particular application to the case of the theologian who might have serious difficulties, for reasons which appear to him wellfounded, in accepting a non-irreformable magisterial teaching."
[Cardinal Ratzinger, noting that only certain teachings are irreformable, Instruction On The Ecclesial Vocation Of The Theologian, n. 28.]

Notice that there is a different type and degree of assent for non-infallible teachings: the religious submission of will and intellect. Whereas the infallible teachings require theological assent, i.e. the assent of faith. This difference occurs because non-infallible teachings do not have the charism of certain truth.

Ron
 
Liberian said:
Gelsbern, Catholic Nick, and jemfinch,

There is a bit of a difference between doctrine and dogma. Dogma is what was revealed to the Church; doctrine is what we can logically conclude from dogma. Dogma is set and finished; doctrine develops with time as we figure new things out. But both are true and are not “taken back.”

Catholic doctrine is not infallible; it is true. Those who proclaim Catholic doctrine infallibly are infallible, but the doctrine itself is simply true. Infallible means “incapable of making a mistake;” doctrines don’t make mistakes, they are true or false, and Catholic doctrines are all true.
  • Liberian
Click to expand...
David Currie, in his book Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholicmakes this same point. I always thought that doctrine & dogma were the same thing, but this distinction makes sense.

Peace,
Linda
 
I just listened to CA Live recording from a couple of weeks ago, and one of the apologists said that Doctrine is what the Church teaches (in its entirety), and dogma is what must be believed, presumably because it is divinely revealed.
 
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