Church Exorcist and Pro Life Priest Warns Against Harry Potter

[Portrait]

And that is the type of information the Bishop was responding to when he said it is the isolation from the faith, NOT Harry Potter, that is drawing the youth to the occult. If you are a teenager already part of or interested in the Occult, and read a good series of books about other teenager wizards, of course you will think it is cool. But we have said over and over that these books are not appropriate for people who cannot tell the difference between fiction and reality, so this completely nullifies your argument.

We aren’t saying everyone should read the books. I’ve repeated this many times but I will again for your own sake, Portrait. We are arguing that these books pose no danger, whether in terms of the Occult or the occasion of sin, to those Catholics of an appropriate age (again, this is a sliding scale depending on which book in the series) with strong enough faith to understand that the Occult is a real and dangerous thing, but it is not related to Harry Potter.

Those who can’t discern between fantasy fiction and the Occult should not read these books. Those who aren’t of a mature enough age to read (probably below 10-11 for the first book, probably at least 16-18 for the final book) should not read these books. But for good, devoted, practicing Catholics who can enjoyably read the series, pick out the moral and social issues presented, and go on with their lives have no danger in reading them, so why do you think they do?

Also, I asked you a direct question that I really wanted an answer to, unless you are willing to concede the entire argument against the books (it is irrelevant how we feel about Rowlings) pertaining to homosexuality. I appreciate you willing to debate, and I understand you have about 3 different lines of debate going now, but if you want to pick and choose what to respond to, or dodge direct questions, then we will cease to have this conversation anymore because our strong points are being ignored by you.

Dear Mumbles140,

Cordial greetings and thankyou for your response.

Rather, it is isolation from the Catholic faith that is decieving multitudes as to the culturally unhealthy nature of the Potter books and their insidious dangers. It is then upon reading these dreadful books that an interest in the occultic sub cultures is often aroused, though not, of course, always.

It is not so much a question of being able to distinguish reality from fiction, more an issue of stimulating an unhealthy interest in the real thing itself. However, I am not so sanguine as yourself that most young people invariably do differentiate between fact and fantasy when it comes to fiction. Apparently, none other than J.K. Rowling herself as expressed surprise at the sheer volume of mail that she receives from young readers writing to her as if Hogwarts was real and wanting to know how they can enrol at the academy in order to become witches and wizards. Again, librarians in diverse social settings report that children in increasing numbers are requesting material from the occult sections of their stock, including witchcraft and satanic manuals. One would surely have to be jolly incredulous not believe that the Potter series of books has had no small part in this, it is just too much of a coincidence.

With respect to the issue of Rowling declaring Dumbledore a homosexual, I stand by what I have said previously. It was a downright irresposible and disgraceful remark and should never have been made, especially by a professing Christian who is an author of children’s books. Yes, I take the point about this character providing an example of sexual abstinence in accordance with Church teaching, but I suspect that the message conveyed by this unfortunate and distasteful comment will not be some model for homosexual celibacy. On the contrary, her comment is likely to be seen by the young, especially non-Christians, as a tacit approval of homosexual acts of depravity and that being a homosexual is not something of which to be ashamed or feel guilty about. It will be seen as a call for tolerance for so called alternative lifestyles. Make no mistake, Rowling is just another liberal and influential voice wearing down people’s resolve and brainwashing them into acceptance of homosexual unions. That she is a writer of children’s books, who wields considerable infulence, only compounds the matter. There is a cultural war being fought today and Rowling is, I fear, on the wrong side.

Thankyou for taking the time to debate this issue. God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[Mumbles140]

Rather, it is isolation from the Catholic faith that is decieving multitudes as to the culturally unhealthy nature of the Potter books and their insidious dangers. It is then upon reading these dreadful books that an interest in the occultic sub cultures is often aroused, though not, of course, always.

So prove Harry Potter is causing the multitudes to turn from the Catholic faith. And as a practicing Catholic abiding by the tenets of the Church, how is this dangerous to me? Also, go ahead and tell the Bishop why he’s wrong - maybe he won’t ask you for any data supporting your claims…

It is not so much a question of being able to distinguish reality from fiction, more an issue of stimulating an unhealthy interest in the real thing itself. However, I am not so sanguine as yourself that most young people invariably do differentiate between fact and fantasy when it comes to fiction. Apparently, none other than J.K. Rowling herself as expressed surprise at the sheer volume of mail that she receives from young readers writing to her as if Hogwarts was real and wanting to know how they can enrol at the academy in order to become witches and wizards. Again, librarians in diverse social settings report that children in increasing numbers are requesting material from the occult sections of their stock, including witchcraft and satanic manuals. One would surely have to be jolly incredulous not believe that the Potter series of books has had no small part in this, it is just too much of a coincidence.

You know, we should stop selling all those Christmas books, because I heard about kids writing letters to Santa expecting presents. They even have impostors at malls trying to deceive our children. Such a shame… And you present this data as fact, but are missing two key points to our argument. First - you provide no support for these claims. I can just as easily claim that the Pope has read and enjoyed these books, and since you don’t have facts to the contrary, who cares if I’m being honest or not. Secondly, you talk about librarians getting requests from kids, but how many kids are Catholic? And out of those, how many are currently practicing the faith? And not just being taken by their parents, either, but being active believers? You are using broad claims on an entire population when we are talking about a specific group. You have yet to refute any points on the matter.

With respect to the issue of Rowling declaring Dumbledore a homosexual, I stand by what I have said previously. It was a downright irresposible and disgraceful remark and should never have been made, especially by a professing Christian who is an author of children’s books. Yes, I take the point about this character providing an example of sexual abstinence in accordance with Church teaching, but I suspect that the message conveyed by this unfortunate and distasteful comment will not be some model for homosexual celibacy. On the contrary, her comment is likely to be seen by the young, especially non-Christians, as a tacit approval of homosexual acts of depravity and that being a homosexual is not something of which to be ashamed or feel guilty about. It will be seen as a call for tolerance for so called alternative lifestyles. Make no mistake, Rowling is just another liberal and influential voice wearing down people’s resolve and brainwashing them into acceptance of homosexual unions. That she is a writer of children’s books, who wields considerable infulence, only compounds the matter. There is a cultural war being fought today and Rowling is, I fear, on the wrong side.

Quite frankly, your suspicions are of no concern to this argument. The truth is, whatever her motives are, someone educated on the Church’s teaching and aware of the situation of Dumbledore will only gain respect, as you have admitted to. We aren’t talking about everyone - we are talking about educated, mature Catholics. And you get away with using terms like ‘likely’ when you have no evidence. How do you know it is a call for tolerance? You cannot simply make claims up.

Look, I think your heart is in the right place, but your arguments are purely speculative and emotional, and you lack reason and support behind your claims. If you cannot provide these, I will have to recuse myself from the argument because it is becoming too frustrating.

 

[Joe_5859]

Hey, the Potter debate has been picked up on again and I’ve been missing it!

I have just skimmed over some of the posts (which I think more than qualifies me to comment ), and I felt like this bears repeating:

The Church/Pope/HolySee/Vatican has not issued (and likely never will issue) any statement either condemning or approving Harry Potter.

Some clergy from various posts have commented on the series, but nothing has been issued in such a form that it would be morally binding on all Catholics to adhere to. But the media likes their catchy headlines, so anyone with a collar and an opinion always seems to speak for the Church as a whole.

I have the utmost respect for many of the Potter critics. How could you not respect Fr. Amorth and Fr. Euteneuer for all they have done for the Church? And I think Michael O’Brien is a great novelist and a fairly decent artist (though it took me some time to really appreciate his art’s style).

But, on this issue, I disagree with them.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

All that can be said on this debate has been said, but I just cannot let this slide:

What I am saying is that no respectable, God-fearing children’s author, worth their salt, would stoop to the level of announcing that one of their principal characters was a homosexual. Can you envisage a C.S. Lewis or a Tolkein saying such distasteful things about any of the characters in their books? Methinks not sir. It is very telling about the author herself and what sort of person she is that she makes these comments. Surely any Christian parent ought to be deeply unhappy and uneasy about allowing their precious children to read a book written by a woman who utters such immoral things, seemingly without blush or shame. Evidently Rowling does not have an authentic Christian world-view, otherwise she would not say such things.

That is a terrible thing to say. It’s attitudes like that which convince gay people to think that the Catholic Church condemns them as persons, condemns their whole existence.

Are Christians supposed to pretend that individuals with same-sex attraction don’t exist? Are we supposed to bury our heads in the sand? Are we supposed to deny truth?

Rowling said nothing that is in any way disgusting or immoral. All she said was, “Actually, I’ve always thought of Dumbledore as gay.” Acknowledging that someone has predominant same-sex attraction is not only acceptable, it’s necessary (if true).

As others have pointed out and as you know, Albus Dumbledore, as a character, is a model of chastity. He lives celibately, directing his passions and energies into serving his students.

You cannot possibly seriously construe Rowling’s revelation that Dumbledore is “gay” as in any way promoting anything immoral.

Oh, and yes: if C.S. Lewis were alive today, I very much can see him writing a character who is a chaste homosexual. Since you asked.

Furthermore, nothing about Dumbledore’s sexual orientation is in the books at all.

With respect to the issue of Rowling declaring Dumbledore a homosexual, I stand by what I have said previously. It was a downright irresposible and disgraceful remark and should never have been made, especially by a professing Christian.

Again, what is so disgraceful about answering a question honestly? (Rowling only said what she said because a fan asked her if Dumbledore had ever been in love with a woman). What’s so irresponsible about facing facts? Rowling herself later expressed surprise that her revelation made so many headlines. It wasn’t a big deal for her.

Yes, I take the point about this character providing an example of sexual abstinence in accordance with Church teaching, but I suspect that the message conveyed by this unfortunate and distasteful comment will not be some model for homosexual celibacy. On the contrary, her comment is likely to be seen by the young, especially non-Christians, as a tacit approval of homosexual acts of depravity and that being a homosexual is not something of which to be ashamed or feel guilty about.

“Being a homosexual” simply means experiencing predominant same-sex attraction. That is nothing to feel ashamed of or guilty over, as they don’t have any control whatsoever of that.

As for acts of depravity, how exactly does the example of celibacy encourage homosexual acts?

What you’re saying makes no sense.

One Pagan saying that HP encourages thought about different forms of spirituality is no different than one Priest saying that the HP books are ok yet you refuse to recognize that.

The last book in the series sold over 44 million copies. That’s not including library rentals and/or borrowing from friends or family, not to mention people that have seen the movies but have not read the books. It’s safe to say that the number of people who have read the books or seen the movies totals over 50 million.

That’s 1200 people a year out of 50 MILLION. Let’s assume that while you have no facts to support it that each of those 1200 was influenced by nothing but the HP books, that’s 16,800 since the first book was published in 1997. That’s 16,800 out of 50 MILLION which is a fraction of a percent (0.000336%) that is not a phenomenon. It’s a coincidence.

:clapping:

Thank you for providing such critical context, mdrummer.

if they were to read and ponder carefully Michael O ’ Brien’s articles regarding the Potter series on his excellent web site, then they would find them to be very compelling and certainly not replete with “special pleadings and inconsistencies”. As they say Stateside, go and check it out for yourselves.

I didn’t find them compelling. They do abound with special pleadings and inconsistencies. Did you read the critique that was posted just a couple months ago in the thread on dragons?

When O’Brien fans can answer the specific criticisms leveled against him, then they’ll have the credibility to trumpet his irredeemably confused position on Harry Potter.

One could also quite easily say that the pro-Potterites read the novels “with an eye to proving the conclusion” because they are desperate to defend these books

I read the books before I realized there was a controversy. I loved them. Having had my eyes opened to their deeply Christian and morally heroic themes, imagery, structure, and spirituality, I was flabbergasted and deeply disappointed when I learned years ago that some Christian groups attack them with tragically misguided ferocity.

 

[Portrait]

Quite frankly, your suspicions are of no concern to this argument. The truth is, whatever her motives are, someone educated on the Church’s teaching and aware of the situation of Dumbledore will only gain respect, as you have admitted to. We aren’t talking about everyone - we are talking about educated, mature Catholics. And you get away with using terms like ‘likely’ when you have no evidence. How do you know it is a call for tolerance? You cannot simply make claims up.

Look, I think your heart is in the right place, but your arguments are purely speculative and emotional, and you lack reason and support behind your claims. If you cannot provide these, I will have to recuse myself from the argument because it is becoming too frustrating.

Dear Mumbles140,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

It is surely rather blinkered to be thinking only of “educated, mature catholics”, what about the multitudes of children and young people who have not had the privillege of a Catholic upbringing and are therefore uninformed as to the distinctions in Church teaching on homosexuality? What is likely to be the impact upon these many influenceable children, especially given the moral confusion that now abounds in our degenerate times, when a popular author of a highly popular series of books announces that one of her key characters is a homosexual? Amidist all the other vehemently permissive voices clamouring for acceptance of homosexual unions, and the abominable vice which accompanies them, Rowling’s declaration will surely be seen as a call for tolerance of homosexual conduct. Is it not reasonable to contend that any Christian man who had an understanding of the prevalent moral laxity of the age in which our lot is cast would be able to appreciate this. Sorry, dear friend, but that to my mind is an undeniable and ineluctable deduction.

Since there is not a whiff of Dumbledore’s homosexuality in the Potter series, there clearly was no conceivable reason to declare his sexual proclivities to the world, unless, of course, Rowling sees herself as a radical agent for social change who’s mission is to banish intolerance of homosexual behaviour and the last vestiges of ‘homophobia’, especially from the Church. ‘Unfounded speculation’, well many of us are of the opinion that it most certainly sits very comfortably with her very avant garde and liberal Christianity. Try as one may, one just cannot envisage a conservative orthodox Catholic or Protestant author of children’s books making such an irresponisble and impious remark respecting one of their characters.

With respect to the Bishop he is mistaken, or at least partially mistaken. Whilst men are undeniably ‘isolated’ from the Faith today, the Bishop is failing to appreciate the negative impact of the Potter series of books that is actually contributing to this isolation and which is even inimical to it. Perhaps the Bishop and others should listen carefully to what Father Gabreile Amorth, chief exorcist of the diocese of Rome, said when he admonished parent’s against the Potter books in an interview with the Italian ANSA news agency. He said quite bluntly, “Behind Harry Potter hides the signature of the king of darkness, the Devil”. He further maintained that many of the ideas expressed in the books were from the realm of darkness, that they contain innumerable positive references to magic, “the Satanic art”, and attempt to make the false distinction between black and white magic, when in point of fact such distinction does not exist “because magic is always recourse to the Devil”. Moreover, he strongly censured the disordered morality presented in Rowling’s unwholesome works, which he believes decidedly reinforce moral relativism, as I and many others have also argued.

The Potter devotees usually attempt to invalidate all this by saying that Father Amorth has no ‘epertise’ in fantasy fiction and hence is in no postion to appraise the books. However, Father Amorth does not need to be tutored in the fantasy fiction genre to be able to assess whether or not the Potter books contain references to the “Satanic art”, for that is most definitely his area of expertise and, I hasten to add, his forte also. That is as clear as the noonday sun and most men, unless they were trying to uphold some theory, would acknowledge it to be so. Whilst I freely admit that he is voicing his own opinion, as that Bishop is voicing his, the Vatican has never disowned or denounced his opinions respecting the Potter books, so evidently they do not, unlike some pro-Potterites, consider them to be extreme or wildly outrageous. Myriads of Catholics world-wide would prefer to Father Amorth’s expertise in these matters than to the mere opinion of a Bishop. Father Amorth, I am quite sure, could support his claims were he asked to do so.

Whist it is true that many Catholic and non-Catholic children may be quite capable of distinguishing fact from fiction, at least at a basic level, we should not ignore the fact that they still have very active imaginations. Neither should we ever understimate the Devil’s influence, especially when it comes to books and films; as one should expect, Satan and his forces have deeply invaded man’s cultural structures and books and fantasy literature has not been omitted.

Warmest good wishes as always,

Portrait

Pax

 

[gatewood1988]

Please show us what proof you have that

1. There is an increased number of people pursuing Wicca or any other occult practice.

and

1. That the HP books are the cause of it.

I don’t want some lame drawn out answer that amounts to the fact that you have no facts.

Yes or no to the first questions bolded in your quote.

And simple distinctive facts for the later portion… show me statistics. Tell me that X% more teens are being drawn into the occult and the accompanying study that proves it has anything to do with HP.

Otherwise quit wasting my time.

Hello, I cannot give you statistics, however a personal experience. I had never thought of the occult before reading HP. The more obsessed I got with HP the more I felt drawn to Wicca and Paganism. I went so far as to become a high priestess and focus completely on how much more powerful I could become. I got involved with the wrong type of people and many times should have died for the things I was involved in. I have no doubt in my mind that HP was the cause of my interest in the occult. I wish I never read the books or saw the movies to begin with.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Hello, I cannot give you statistics, however a personal experience. I had never thought of the occult before reading HP. The more obsessed I got with HP the more I felt drawn to Wicca and Paganism. I went so far as to become a high priestess and focus completely on how much more powerful I could become. I got involved with the wrong type of people and many times should have died for the things I was involved in. I have no doubt in my mind that HP was the cause of my interest in the occult. I wish I never read the books or saw the movies to begin with.

No offense, but this speaks more as weakness in your character and your incapacity to distinguish fantasy from reality than anything about the books (or Fantasy as a whole).

I’ve been in the whole Fantasy genre for roughly nine to ten years now. I started reading Harry Potter when I was twelve. Before that, I was already into Japanese stuff like Flame of Recca and went on to Final Fantasy. When I was in highschool, I started playing Yu-Gi-Oh! and got into online, fantasy RPGs (where, coincidentally, I never tired of playing the heavy-hitting spell caster). Later on I began writing my own fantasy stories and decided to pursue a career in writing. Now I’ve expanded plentily beyond just Harry Potter (e.g. Narnia, Lord of the Rings, Inkheart, I’ve also been meaning to read the Inheritance series as well). There’s a lot more comics included in that expansion as well. Oh and did I mention that I even when I was a child, I was fascinated by stories of myth and folklore? Just recently I’ve been reviving that interest as well (as an academic subject no less ) and it has contributed good material for my writing.

Still after all that, I am nowhere near to practicing the occult. I think Wicca and Neo-Paganism are rather silly ‘religions’ at worst, queer belief systems at best. Practices such as ouija boards, horoscopes, palm reading, tarot cards, and astrology I disregard and scoff as superstitious baloney.

Instead of wishing you never read the books, you’re better off wishing you were more sensible when you read them.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

You could also use the example of fundamentalist, anti-Catholic quacks who attack the Church after reading the Bible.

 

[gatewood1988]

No offense, but this speaks more as weakness in your character and your incapacity to distinguish fantasy from reality than anything about the books (or Fantasy as a whole).

I’ve been in the whole Fantasy genre for roughly nine to ten years now. I started reading Harry Potter when I was twelve. Before that, I was already into Japanese stuff like Flame of Recca and went on to Final Fantasy. When I was in highschool, I started playing Yu-Gi-Oh! and got into online, fantasy RPGs (where, coincidentally, I never tired of playing the heavy-hitting spell caster). Later on I began writing my own fantasy stories and decided to pursue a career in writing. Now I’ve expanded plentily beyond just Harry Potter (e.g. Narnia, Lord of the Rings, Inkheart, I’ve also been meaning to read the Inheritance series as well). There’s a lot more comics included in that expansion as well. Oh and did I mention that I even when I was a child, I was fascinated by stories of myth and folklore? Just recently I’ve been reviving that interest as well (as an academic subject no less ) and it has greatly good material for my writing.

Still after all that, I am nowhere near to practicing the occult. I think Wicca and Neo-Paganism are rather silly ‘religions’ at worst, queer belief systems at best. Practices such as ouija boards, horoscopes, palm reading, tarot cards, and astrology I disregard and scoff as superstitious baloney.

Instead of wishing you never read the books, you’re better off wishing you were more sensible when you read them.

True that is probably the truth. I not only was influenced by HP but i guess the people I was hanging out with too. I 13 when I left the Mormon church and I guess I went off the cliff and did the most outrageous things to destroy my relationship with my parents. I hatesd my parents with every fiber of my being and I wanted them dead, that’s the truth. I am an anime fan too and over the years have been able to get a grip on reality so to speak. I had never heard of withcraft or anything like that because of such a sheltered childhood so when HP took off, I was fascinated by it. So true, I probably at the time couldn’t distinguish fantasy from reality.

 

[mdrummer5]

Hello, I cannot give you statistics, however a personal experience. I had never thought of the occult before reading HP. The more obsessed I got with HP the more I felt drawn to Wicca and Paganism. I went so far as to become a high priestess and focus completely on how much more powerful I could become. I got involved with the wrong type of people and many times should have died for the things I was involved in. I have no doubt in my mind that HP was the cause of my interest in the occult. I wish I never read the books or saw the movies to begin with.

While I appreciate you sharing your personal experience I think what Jharek said pretty much hit the nail on the head. I don’t mean to be disrespectful but this was not an issue with the books… merely your perception. You indicated you became obsessed. Well of course if you become obsessed with anything it’s going to be unhealthy.

If you can’t read the books, recognize them as nothing more than fantasy fiction and leave it that it is not the fault of the books but the fault of the reader.

Edit… since you posted before I finished my response…

True that is probably the truth. I not only was influenced by HP but i guess the people I was hanging out with too. I 13 when I left the Mormon church and I guess I went off the cliff and did the most outrageous things to destroy my relationship with my parents. I hatesd my parents with every fiber of my being and I wanted them dead, that’s the truth. I am an anime fan too and over the years have been able to get a grip on reality so to speak. I had never heard of withcraft or anything like that because of such a sheltered childhood so when HP took off, I was fascinated by it. So true, I probably at the time couldn’t distinguish fantasy from reality.

I simply wanted to commend you for this. It takes a lot for someone in your position to not only recognize a fault but to acknowledge and admit it.

 

[Portrait]

Hello, I cannot give you statistics, however a personal experience. I had never thought of the occult before reading HP. The more obsessed I got with HP the more I felt drawn to Wicca and Paganism. I went so far as to become a high priestess and focus completely on how much more powerful I could become. I got involved with the wrong type of people and many times should have died for the things I was involved in. I have no doubt in my mind that HP was the cause of my interest in the occult. I wish I never read the books or saw the movies to begin with.

Dear gatewood,

Cordial greetings and a very warm welcome to CAF.

Thankyou kindly for your contribution to this debate and my prayer is that the many Harry Potter devotees will duly take note of your remarks. There is nothing quite like first hand testimony of personal experience as it so often speaks far louder than cerebral debate, being far more powerful and impressive. Jolly good.

I do hope that Jesus now has you in His loving embrace and that you are now fully at peace.

God bless you dear sister.

Warmest good wishes and prayers,

Portrait

Pax

 

[gatewood1988]

Dear gatewood,

Cordial greetings and a very warm welcome to CAF.

Thankyou kindly for your contribution to this debate and my prayer is that the many Harry Potter devotees will duly take note of your remarks. There is nothing quite like first hand testimony of personal experience as it so often speaks far louder than cerebral debate, being far more powerful and impressive. Jolly good.

I do hope that Jesus now has you in His loving embrace and that you are now fully at peace.

God bless you dear sister.

Warmest good wishes and prayers,

Portrait

Pax

Thank you so much for that warm welcome. I am so grateful to be back home. I know now of the dangers of things in our society and I hate for others to go through what I have. I am finally at peace with myself and God.

 

[mdrummer5]

Thankyou kindly for your contribution to this debate and my prayer is that the many Harry Potter devotees will duly take note of your remarks.

Maybe you should duly take note of her other remarks and not just the ones that suit your point as you have a horrible habit of doing.

True that is probably the truth. I not only was influenced by HP but i guess the people I was hanging out with too. I 13 when I left the Mormon church and I guess I went off the cliff and did the most outrageous things to destroy my relationship with my parents. I hatesd my parents with every fiber of my being and I wanted them dead, that’s the truth. I am an anime fan too and over the years have been able to get a grip on reality so to speak. I had never heard of withcraft or anything like that because of such a sheltered childhood so when HP took off, I was fascinated by it. **So true, I probably at the time couldn’t distinguish fantasy from reality. **

So, again… this one example of someone who admittedly couldn’t distinguish fantasy from reality is hardly proof of an occult phenomenon… you’ve still provided no facts.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Rowling’s declaration will surely be seen as a call for tolerance of homosexual conduct.

After Rowling’s revelation about Dumbledore’s sexual identity, a gay activist wrote a column in Newsweek about how this revelation would not serve the gay agenda, since Dumbledore appeared to be very far from this writer’s ideal - due to his chastity and silence about his sexual orientation throughout the stories.

Since there is not a whiff of Dumbledore’s homosexuality in the Potter series, there clearly was no conceivable reason to declare his sexual proclivities to the world, unless, of course, Rowling sees herself as a radical agent for social change who’s mission is to banish intolerance of homosexual behaviour and the last vestiges of ‘homophobia’.

You know, you could avoid erroneous conclusions like this with but a moment’s research.

If you had looked up the circumstances behind her revelation, you would know that it wasn’t like that at all. She was taking questions from fans at some sort of Harry Potter event. One of them asked if Dumbledore had ever had a girlfriend or been in love. Rowling simply answered this fan’s question honestly.

As I emphasized before, the resulting controversy surprised her greatly. The whole ruckus clearly took her by surprise; she did not consider Dumbledore’s sexual orientation newsworthy.

So the cause of her explanation was not a political agenda but rather a fan’s honest question about Dumbledore’s love life. To be honest, I think it’s wonderful that she has given the world such a wonderful model for those with same-sex attraction.

I have no doubt in my mind that HP was the cause of my interest in the occult.

I’m sorry you got sucked in to the occult, gatewood. But (name removed by moderator) and others are right: Harry Potter really can’t have been the true cause of your interest. After all, which of the following things did Harry Potter tempt you to try to do?

Levitate someone with “Wingardium Leviosa”? <— not real
Make a wand light up with “Lumos”? <------ not real.
Make a wand for yourself? <---- dragon heartstrings and unicorn hairs don’t exist.
Mix up a Felix Felicis potion or a Polyjuice Potion? <------ not real
Obtain a bezoar from a goat stomach? <----- not real
Cast a Patronus Charm? <----- not real. Neither are dementors.
Stupefy or “Petrificus Totalus” someone? <----- not real
Apparate or disapparate? <----- impossible/not real

I think you see my point. Everything in Harry Potter is so obviously fantastical and unreal that on their own, these books couldn’t possibly have lured anyone to the occult, unless someone thinks that spells like the above are real, in which case he or she has serious medical/psychological issues with perceiving reality. Lost Wanderer’s response to Harry Potter and fantasy magic in general is far more representative of the experiences of everyone I know who has read Harry Potter.

For Portrait and others, if someone really does have serious psychological issues with fantasy and reality, then I would agree that they shouldn’t read Harry Potter. But that’s hardly the norm. I saw a play once about a teenage kid who could fly. I wouldn’t want a person unable to distinguish reality from fantasy to see that play either, lest he or she should jump off a skyscraper in an attempt to fly.

That doesn’t mean it’s even potentially harmful for 99.999% of the population.

Exactly. It’d be like saying that Lucy’s use of the star-magician’s spell book in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader made one investigate how to cast real spells. It’s entirely possible that could happen, but it just plain wouldn’t be the book’s fault.

True that is probably the truth. I not only was influenced by HP but i guess the people I was hanging out with too. I 13 when I left the Mormon church and I guess I went off the cliff and did the most outrageous things to destroy my relationship with my parents. I hatesd my parents with every fiber of my being and I wanted them dead, that’s the truth. I am an anime fan too and over the years have been able to get a grip on reality so to speak. I had never heard of withcraft or anything like that because of such a sheltered childhood so when HP took off, I was fascinated by it. So true, I probably at the time couldn’t distinguish fantasy from reality.

Thank you for sharing more of your experiences, gatewood. I’m sorry you didn’t have a good relationship with your parents. God bless you and thanks for entering this discussion!

 

[Mumbles140]

Dear Mumbles140,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

It is surely rather blinkered to be thinking only of “educated, mature catholics”, what about the multitudes of children and young people who have not had the privillege of a Catholic upbringing and are therefore uninformed as to the distinctions in Church teaching on homosexuality?

Although I am concerned for the salvation of all, the focus of this debate is whether it is okay for Catholics to read the Harry Potter series without the stain of sin. Your other points are completely irrelevant. Also, you keep going on about this radical agent for social change on a comment made about the inspiration of a character made to a relatively small group. She isn’t going on national tours proclaiming the rights of homosexuals to marry, she simply said she always thought of a certain character as gay. That’s it and that’s all, so don’t try and make it out to be more than it is. Again, without facts, you are presenting only inflammatory words.

With respect to the Bishop he is mistaken, or at least partially mistaken. Whilst men are undeniably ‘isolated’ from the Faith today, the Bishop is failing to appreciate the negative impact of the Potter series of books that is actually contributing to this isolation and which is even inimical to it. Perhaps the Bishop and others should listen carefully to what Father Gabreile Amorth, chief exorcist of the diocese of Rome, said when he admonished parent’s against the Potter books in an interview with the Italian ANSA news agency. He said quite bluntly, “Behind Harry Potter hides the signature of the king of darkness, the Devil”. He further maintained that many of the ideas expressed in the books were from the realm of darkness, that they contain innumerable positive references to magic, “the Satanic art”, and attempt to make the false distinction between black and white magic, when in point of fact such distinction does not exist “because magic is always recourse to the Devil”. Moreover, he strongly censured the disordered morality presented in Rowling’s unwholesome works, which he believes decidedly reinforce moral relativism, as I and many others have also argued.

My apologies - I was unaware the Holy Father passed upon the ability to make judgments which he refuses to make to you. The Bishop was speaking before a conference of exorcists, and the issue about popular fantasy fiction came up. Obviously, people who fight the Devil and demons are likely to see it places, and want to warn against it, but that is still their opinion. The trouble is that their opinions, at least from where I see them, don’t see the forest for the trees. They see magic, but don’t understand these books aren’t about magic. If you read the whole thread, you would see the discussions about plot devices. If they realized the fiction behind it, and how magic isn’t good or bad, but neutral (because that’s what plot devices are), then they could truly see the story. The Bishop has realized this - he knows that is isn’t about books containing magic, it is about an ignorance to the faith. You cannot claim Harry Potter adds to the isolation of the faith without facts. If you want anecdotal evidence, how many practicing Catholics have read the books and continue to stay strong? Show me one example of a practicing Catholic who read the Harry Potter books and ceased to be Catholic thereafter.

Furthermore, there is a clear distinction between ‘good magic’ and ‘bad magic’ in both the Lord of the Rings and the Chronicles of Narnia, so why aren’t any exorcists or other Catholics railing against these? Seriously, I would love an answer to this. You have avoided other times when I have asked for a direct answer, but please do not ignore this. If it is magic that is bad, per Fr. Amorth and others, why are LOTR and Narnia not under this category?

Whist it is true that many Catholic and non-Catholic children may be quite capable of distinguishing fact from fiction, at least at a basic level, we should not ignore the fact that they still have very active imaginations. Neither should we ever understimate the Devil’s influence, especially when it comes to books and films; as one should expect, Satan and his forces have deeply invaded man’s cultural structures and books and fantasy literature has not been omitted.

Imagination is a wonderful thing. When I was younger, we’d be out in the woods and pretending to be different things - cowboys, indians, hunters, soldiers, etc. Does that mean I will go out and kill someone because I played these things? That I will go out and harm animals because I did? You can’t separate distinguishing fact from fiction with imagination. The truth is, imagination is fiction - the end - that is the very definition of imagination. So if someone can distinguish fact from fiction, then they understand the limits of their imagination as being fiction. When they start messing around with ouija boards and expecting results, they’ve lost that ability to distinguish. But even running around with sticks pretending to have ‘wizard duels’ is no different than running around with your fingers like a sideways L firing your guns in cowboys and indians!

 

[Mumbles140]

First, my thanks and prayers to Gatewood - it took a lot of courage to detail your journey for us, and it is greatly appreciated. God has blessed you by showing you away from the path you were on, and may He continue to bless you as you continue through life.

Now, in regards to Gatewood’s comments and Portrait’s ‘interpretation’ of them, I wanted to mention something that has been on my mind. Please, allow me a little latitude - I will tie it all together.

It is a known fact that the number of popsicle sales and the number of child abductions occur during roughly the same time.

On the surface, it appears one could claim relation between the two, but if you think about it, what is actually the matter at hand here? You see, these items do not correlate at all with each other. Rather, they correlate to a third event, directly related to both of them - summer time. Obviously, popsicles sell more in the summer, and with more kids being out of school and outdoors, it is sad to say that abductions increase during the summer months.

Now, let’s look at Harry Potter and the Occult, using Gatewood’s experience as an example. Gatewood read Harry Potter. Gatewood also became involved with the Occult. Does this necessarily mean that A caused B? Even Gatewood has admitted that this isn’t so. Now, we know that Gatewood’s parents were very strict, which prevented any prior experience to fantasy fiction. We also know that Gatewood’s parents were Mormon, and this was not the lifestyle Gatewood wanted to lead. Therefore, what can we conclude about this? The third event is the rebelling against parents. That event correlates directly to the reading and the Occult, and shows us that A did not lead to B.

Portrait, I really hope you understand the point of all of this. You are trying to prove connections that aren’t there with your statements, even taking Gatewood’s experience out of context when he/she has explained otherwise.

 

[Portrait]

Once again you fail to give simple facts and straight answers. Why? Because you have none. It amazes me that while you feel it necessary to use your very extensive vocabulary to give bogus answers that amount to nothing but you circling around the truth you can’t simply say yes or no.

One Pagan saying that HP encourages thought about different forms of spirituality is no different than one Priest saying that the HP books are ok yet you refuse to recognize that because you blatantly avoid certain facts when they do not suit your argument. Interesting coming from the one that implied that those of us in support of HP were “cheap debaters”. Tell me how it’s different, tell me how you ignore that some priests have said HP is ok but you jump on one Pagan that supports your claim and does a lame job of that.

The 100 inquiries a month you refer to mean nothing. It’s a simple matter of logic and numbers. Given how popular the books are it stands to reason that of course some of those hundred may have been fans of the books. That doesn’t mean that they are responsible for the child’s interest.

The last book in the series sold over 44 million copies. That’s not including library rentals and/or borrowing from friends or family, not to mention people that have seen the movies but have not read the books. It’s safe to say that the number of people who have read the books or seen the movies totals over 50 million.

That’s 1200 people a year out of 50 MILLION. Let’s assume that while you have no facts to support it that each of those 1200 was influenced by nothing but the HP books, that’s 16,800 since the first book was published in 1997. That’s 16,800 out of 50 MILLION which is a fraction of a percent (0.000336%) that is not a phenomenon. It’s a coincidence.

You want to prove your point? Show me that sometime after the last book was published (2007) Pagan inquiries among teens went up by millions. Let’s say that only 20 million of the 50 million that read or watched the HP stories are teens… well… 1 million would only be 5% of those. Surely when it’s as incontrovertbible and as blatantly obvious as you’d have us believe you can prove that 5% of the teens who’ve read the HP books then turned to the occult.

Oh… you can’t… see, I gave you facts and gave you logic pertaining to those facts. You have no facts. Without facts you have no proof. Without proof your continued arguing on this topic makes you look either stubborn or stupid. I don’t believe you’re stupid so you can stick to your claim all you want to but ultimately you can’t support it with anything other than your own close minded stubborness.

Dear mdrummer,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

First, I am bound to say that Mr. Paine, who is a high priest of an assembly of witches, is likely to be far more knowledgeable about these matters. Therefore his testimony is more credible and weighter than some Priest stating that there is nothing amiss or untoward with the Potter series of books. Given that there is a tragic loss of spiritual discernment, even among the priesthood, it is hardly any marvel that there are priests to be found who consider the Potter books harmless fun fantasy that do not promote witchcraft and paganism. People ought to heed what Father Amorth and Mr. Paine say about such things as they are on the cutting edge of this sort of stuff.

What I do find most interesting is that the increase of enquiries about the occult by the young coincides with the same time frame as the Potter phenomena (books and films). Now I will agree that other factors such as the paganization of our Western culture and a yearning for something spiritual to fill a deep void in mens hearts may have some part to play, but to rule out completely the Potter phenomena as having no key role surely does take some considerable credence. It is manifestly obvious that the Potter books have stimulated an interest in the occultic sub cultures by many young people as the testimony of gatewood1988 has evinced most convincingly and clearly this afternoon. Now if they played a key role in her life then, on the balance of probabilities, they have similarly been pivotal in lives of myriads of other young and impressionable people world-wide. Others must judge if this amounts to a “close minded stubborness” or not or whether it is a perfectly reasonable deduction from the available data.

My sincere prayer is that Catholics, often very orthodox as regards Church teaching on faith and morals, will come to see that the interconnection between J.K. Rowling’s sub-creation and the real world of magic and witchcraft is just too close for comfort. Can good Catholic parent’s really risk exposing their precious offspring to these unwholesome novels given what Fathers Amorth and Euteneuer have said respecting them. These men ought not to go unheard or unheaded as they are well qualified to speak upon such matters.

God bless you.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[mdrummer5]

many young people as the testimony of gatewood1988 has evinced most convincingly and clearly this afternoon.

You are truly arrogant and close minded. If you would not ignore points that negate yours you’d have seen that gatewood after sharing her story made another post admitting that at the time she could not differentiate between fantasy and reality as well as admitting the crowd she was hanging out with was likely more the cause of her interest in the occult. As noted repeatedly ONE example out of 50 MILLION means absolutely NOTHING

Can good Catholic parent’s really risk exposing their precious offspring to these unwholesome novels given what Fathers Amorth and Euteneuer have said respecting them. These men ought not to go unheard or unheaded as they are well qualified to speak upon such matters.

Perhaps… but even they offer no proof and also ignore facts as you continue to do in your ingorance and arrogance.

I gave you the numbers… show us yours. Show us the percentage of HP fans that turn to the occult and prove to me that it’s because of the HP phenomenon and not a very small coincidental number.

If you can’t, all I ask is that you admit that YOU HAVE NO PROOF.

 

[styrgwillidar]

Well, if you are willing to google ‘Steve Paine’, I think you can find the website for the individual referenced by Portrait.

If I’ve found the right person, he doesn’t list HP in his favorite books or movies. But he does list Lord of the Rings amongst his favorite movies. Are we now to consider LOTRs tainted?

I believe individuals susceptible to looking into the occult are drawn by the perception of weilding power, and being special. Regardless of how magic is depicted being used- good or evil- in a fictional work, a person fascinated by power will view it like any weapon- it’s their purpose and intended use they seek it out for that’s the problem. Not how it’s being used in the story. Not unlike politicians who attain power because they want to ‘rule over’ vice ‘serve’ others. That is, power to tell others what to do, how to think, what to drive, how to live.

 

[Portrait]

Imagination is a wonderful thing. When I was younger, we’d be out in the woods and pretending to be different things - cowboys, indians, hunters, soldiers, etc. Does that mean I will go out and kill someone because I played these things? That I will go out and harm animals because I did? You can’t separate distinguishing fact from fiction with imagination. The truth is, imagination is fiction - the end - that is the very definition of imagination. So if someone can distinguish fact from fiction, then they understand the limits of their imagination as being fiction. When they start messing around with ouija boards and expecting results, they’ve lost that ability to distinguish. But even running around with sticks pretending to have ‘wizard duels’ is no different than running around with your fingers like a sideways L firing your guns in cowboys and indians!

Dear Mumbles140,

Many thanks for your response.

The fact remains that Rowling’s remark respecting this character was still downright irresponsible and impious and ought not to have been uttered by an author of children’s books, especially a professing Christian. Sorry old chap but I stand by that. There is not really anything more that I can add to what I have already said on that particular issue.

On the contrary, it is ignorance of the faith that is the occasion of many being duped by the Potter series of books and seeing them as nothing more than harmless fantasy fun, rather than the inferior and culturally uhealthy reading material that they actually are. Their want of spiritual discernment, because it is not informed by faith, has seriously impaired their judgement so that they are unable perceive the insidious dangers of these novels. For example, whilst the Potter books do, at least at first glance, appear to disconnect witchcraft from spiritual realities, they, nevertheless, present it as all very exciting stuff and in no way spiritually hazardous. Alas, this renders the series potentially more corrupting, since it gives to the unsuspecting child a false sense of what witchcraft is all about.

Finally, the classical works of Tolkein and C.S. Lewis are unapologetically Christian, the same cannot be said for Rowlings Potter series, which stands in stark contrast to the former. Thus, for example, the good characters in Middle Earth and Narnia do not cast spells upon people, do not call up spirits and commune with them like beloved neighbours, do not perform rituals and blend potions. The good characters of Hogwarts academy do. In Narnia a ring transports one to another world whilst in Middle Earth lightening flashes at a critical time to perform some powerful feat. However, at Hogwarts you have the evil Voldemort who enchants a diary to take possession of a girl’s soul! Now even a blind man on a galloping horse can surely see that there vast and substantial differences, requiring us to view Rowling’s witchcraft in a wholly different light from the Lewis and Tolkein magic. Moreover, Lewis himself said that his books are replete with Christian symbolism (e.g. Aslan as an umistakable Christ figure), covering such topics as Heaven and the consumation of all things. All of this is far removed from the Potter series as the east is from the west.

Here I must love you and leave you as it is my custom to take a breather from the boards at weekends. It just remains for me to wish you all a most enjoyable weekend, whatever you plan to do. Jolly good show and thankyou for the lively debate.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait:tiphat:

Pax