Church Exorcist and Pro Life Priest Warns Against Harry Potter

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Yes. Some of what I have written is anecdotal and told to me by my now 16-18 year old students.

I really don’t have time to go looking for the references and citing them to gain points in an internet debate; but there is evidence that children learn by observation, imitation and intrinsic and extrinsic reinforcement. The most basic study was that done by Bandura looking at aggression. In fact most of the work has been done looking at aggression, so others can reject it as not being the same as learning occult beliefs and behaviours. Most of it also pertains to film and not books so that is another reason not to waste my time citing it all!

However, the basic processes of learning are illustrated in these studies and many psychologists - Bandura being the foremost - argue that these processes of social learning are how children learn most attitudes, values and beliefs.

I’m not against the HP empire, so much as advising that as I have said before, these books and films should be teaching opportunities.
 
mdrummer,

You state that ‘there are no real witches in dark basements brewing love potions and spells’. I am sorry to tell you that you are wrong. There are thousands (if not more) of people calling themselves witches and brewing potions and spells. Wicca is even recognised in the US as a religion, and Wiccans have a ‘chaplain’ equivalent in the armed forces and in prisons. I can’t vouch for the ‘dark basements’ however - at least not in the UK where most homes don’t have them and if they have a floor below ground it is often called the ‘cellar’ and less well used than those in the US. Most urban solitary witches use their kitchens and sitting rooms anyway.

If you want to know how people end up in witchcraft as explained and experienced by (non Catholic) academic sociologist try reading Persuasions of the Witch’s Craft by T. M. Luhrman. As far as I remember she acknowledges the role of fantasy literature in leading to involvement in the occult and handily cites a very long book list and references.

I suppose by referring to ‘real’ you might be drawing a distinction between those whose spells work and those who are incompetent; however the CC does not draw this distinction and simply refers, as does scripture, to the practise of the occult which is what witches do.

God Bless
 
Yes. Some of what I have written is anecdotal and told to me by my now 16-18 year old students.

I really don’t have time to go looking for the references and citing them to gain points in an internet debate; but there is evidence that children learn by observation, imitation and intrinsic and extrinsic reinforcement. The most basic study was that done by Bandura looking at aggression. In fact most of the work has been done looking at aggression, so others can reject it as not being the same as learning occult beliefs and behaviours. Most of it also pertains to film and not books so that is another reason not to waste my time citing it all!

However, the basic processes of learning are illustrated in these studies and many psychologists - Bandura being the foremost - argue that these processes of social learning are how children learn most attitudes, values and beliefs.

I’m not against the HP empire, so much as advising that as I have said before, these books and films should be teaching opportunities.
Strange. You didn’t respond to my point about Kohlberg’s stages - that’s an important theory in psychology. I’m very surprised that you didn’t respond to that.

You also didn’t answer my questions regarding the “children” who have tried to cast the spells. I wonder why.

And you didn’t even provide an operational definition of “children.”

I respectfully request that you address these points. Kohlberg’s stages are so well known in psychology that I would find it almost impossible to believe that a psychologist would not know about them. “Bobo Dolls” Bandura? Wow. And you use his theory to back up your claims? Of course there is an inter-relationship between environment and behavior. I don’t think anyone in this thread would disagree with that. And I don’t believe that anyone would say that children do not learn from imitating others. So are you saying that adolescents (I’m kinda providing a pseudo-operational definition for you here) become aggressive because they identify with Harry Potter? Remember, Bandura’s well-known study involved children much younger than adolescents (if you are referring to the “Bobo Dolls” research). It seems to me that you are extrapolating the behavior (and reasons for that behavior) of young children to that of adolescents.

Do you believe that aggression is the key to what causes adolescents to take Harry Potter so seriously and to try to actually perform what they consider magic? I have admitted that I haven’t read the books, but I’ve seen bits and pieces from the movies and I haven’t seen the character Harry Potter or his friends do anything involving aggression!!

Honestly, if an adolescent is trying to perform magic from something he/she read in a book, that adolescent should be in therapy. Intensive therapy; maybe (name removed by moderator)atient. That is scary. But I don’t believe for one second that an adolescent who would even think that casting spells learned from a character in a book (even a character he/she identifies with) has any sort of grasp on reality.

Do your students also play D&D? Do you believe, like the poster you have defended, that pop/rock music is evil?

As to your last paragraph - I agree completely. And that is what I have been saying all along. If you have the time, please read my previous posts. I haven’t posted much in this thread and entered it very close to where it will probably end.
 
F.A.O. Fone Bone

Interestingly, I have actually heard some children say that an individual teacher is “out to get them” when all this means is that the teacher in question is continually having to reprove them for their ungovernable and disruptive conduct. Perhaps they are taking their que from their role model Harry Potter!
Portrait, that has been said for as long as there have been teachers and students!! I said it (and in my case it was true, my parents spoke to Sister and agreed with me, I was pulled out of Catholic school in the middle of the semester and placed in public school). I think everyone in the entire world who has ever been a student has said it, perhaps with the exception of you. To blame this statement on Harry Potter shows a remarkable lack of a grasp on reality. Your statements continue to surprise me. Pop/rock music is evil. All of it. And now this. If my jaw could drop any farther it would hit the floor.
Alas, these exceedingly troublesome aspects of the Potter series still fail to put men on enquiry, including some orthodox Catholics. They ought to flash up the warning cones but they sadly do not and many fail to identify the problems that are to be found in these dreadful books. Fone Bone, please revisit the Potter novels again and give them an honest appraisal in the light of the remarks I have made above and I am certain that you will discover that my grave misgivings are not without foundation and neither are they unsubstantiated.
You haven’t even read them and now you’re telling one who has to go back and “revisit” them? :eek:
This is my final posting until Monday and so my I wish all contributors a splendid weekend, whatever you plan to do. God bless you all my beloved friends and thankyou for a lively debate.
Lively? Hardly. Frustrating, like talking to a brick wall? Definitely!!

You know, of course, that another Harry Potter thread will be appearing soon. And I intend to be there. Hopefully by that time both you and I will have read the entire series of books. I feel somewhat at a loss, having not read them myself. Even if you don’t like them, to debate the books, we all should read them.
Warmest good wishes
Ditto.
No ditto.
Ditto.

:(:(😦
 
I am not Anti-HP and I think its perfectly ok for a mature person to read it.

BUT, I do think its rightful to be concerned about a very young person reading it.
We completely agree, and have been saying this all along! It is up to each parent, and I respect each parent’s right to raise their own child. However, the book does not need to be condemned for adults (or minors of an appropriate age) who can properly discern, appreciate the Christian themes throughout the books, and hopefully enjoy a good story.
 
If you don’t think that children (5-16) copy things that they’ve read in books then I can only assume that you haven’t been around many children! 😉

Anecdotally, my own niece became a self identified witch at 11 using books (including fiction) as her guide. The claim that children (5-16) need hospitalising or therapy if they copy magic from books is simply silly, and, rightly, most parents and professional child carers would laugh at this.

I’m sorry that I haven’t operationalised the term children, but as I’m not conducting any empirical research it seems irrelevant to me. However, the age group I have in mind as most vulnerable are broadly the 8-11 year olds, although each child is different in terms of their development.

The other issue is that Kohlberg has two theories of development - which did you mean? I have to confess that I don’t remember seeing a reference to him in your previous posts, so my apologies. I’m guessing that you’re talking about his theory of moral development, which is irrelevant anyway as we’re talking about learning about the occult and learning to postively value that set of beliefs. The process of reasoning right from wrong and the move to a more nuanced understanding of morality simply isn’t relevant here.

As regards the issue of aggression. I clearly said in my post that the work I’d cited was about aggression and that some would therefore reject it as irrelevant. I also talked about the problems of generalising the findings! I then went on to state that what was relevant was the *process of learning *demonstrated. 🙂

Could I also ask that you not be rude to me in your public posts? I find some of what you’ve implied and written to be offensive and unnecessary. Thanks. 👍
 
We completely agree, and have been saying this all along! It is up to each parent, and I respect each parent’s right to raise their own child. However, the book does not need to be condemned for adults (or minors of an appropriate age) who can properly discern, appreciate the Christian themes throughout the books, and hopefully enjoy a good story.
👍
 
Handily, I’ve just found a study looking at smoking that also supports SLT in adolescents. There are plenty more out there.

And yes, I can anticipate the criticisms that smoking isn’t magic, they’re not using books, it was done in 1996, it was done in Iowa etc, etc, etc.

However I am simply adding evidence to the argument that children (5-16) learn through observation, imitation & reinforcement. I really didn’t think that this idea was so controversial as it is well accepted and has enormous influence in developmental psychology! It is also used extensively in areas as diverse as education, pregnancy prevention, drug misuse, offending behaviour, eating disorders…Role models have real influence, and HP and his friends are role models for many children, why else would one defence of the HP books be that they teach positive values ?(*Which I don’t deny is true in some areas.)
A Longitudinal Test of Social Learning Theory: Adolescent Smoking
Ronald L. Akers
Gang Lee, University of Texas, El Paso
Abstract
A general social learning theory of deviance is applied to adolescent smoking as a form of sustance use and tested with data from a 5-year longitudinal study of a panel (N=454) of respondents in grades 7 through 12 in an Iowa community. The major components of the process specified in the theory are differential association, differential reinforcement, definitions (attitudes), and modeling. The process is one in which the operation of these variables produces abstinence or smoking, but with some reciprocal effects of smoking behavior on the social learning variables. Previous research on various kinds of deviance and substance use has been supportive of the theory. The findings in this study from LISREL models of the overall social learning process and each of the component of association, reinforcement, and definitions are also supportive.
Ronald L. Akers and Gang Lee. “A Longitudinal Test of Social Learning Theory: Adolescent Smoking” Journal of Drug Issues (1996).
Available at: works.bepress.com/gang_lee/7
 
Fran,

Interesting you bring up smoking. If I remember correctly cigarette companies were heavily criticized for use of cartoon characters in order to appeal to children. Which kind of cuts against the idea that Fantasia would be completely harmless to a child. Not saying the critics were right, just remembering a lot of claims were made that way.

I agree that role models have real influence, which basketball star was it that said 'I’m not a role model for your kid!"

Unfortunately, that wasn’t true, kids did look up to him. However, he had a point. All humans are flawed, how they deal or struggle with those flaws may be instructive or admirable (some people serve as a bad example and lesson). If we place our trust, faith and hope in human beings based an idea they’re flawless we will always be disappointed. And I think, that in and of itself is a valuable lesson to pass on to our children. The whole concept of forgiveness, tolerance for others mistakes, and the idea that we put God first. In addition, we may respect people for certain abilities or actions without also accepting or overlooking/excusing those things they’ve done which we disagree with or know to be wrong.
 
If you don’t think that children (5-16) copy things that they’ve read in books then I can only assume that you haven’t been around many children! 😉

Anecdotally, my own niece became a self identified witch at 11 using books (including fiction) as her guide. The claim that children (5-16) need hospitalising or therapy if they copy magic from books is simply silly, and, rightly, most parents and professional child carers would laugh at this.

I’m sorry that I haven’t operationalised the term children, but as I’m not conducting any empirical research it seems irrelevant to me. However, the age group I have in mind as most vulnerable are broadly the 8-11 year olds, although each child is different in terms of their development.

The other issue is that Kohlberg has two theories of development - which did you mean? I have to confess that I don’t remember seeing a reference to him in your previous posts, so my apologies. I’m guessing that you’re talking about his theory of moral development, which is irrelevant anyway as we’re talking about learning about the occult and learning to postively value that set of beliefs. The process of reasoning right from wrong and the move to a more nuanced understanding of morality simply isn’t relevant here

As regards the issue of aggression. I clearly said in my post that the work I’d cited was about aggression and that some would therefore reject it as irrelevant. I also talked about the problems of generalising the findings! I then went on to state that what was relevant was the *process of learning *demonstrated. 🙂

Could I also ask that you not be rude to me in your public posts? I find some of what you’ve implied and written to be offensive and unnecessary. Thanks. 👍
I only have time to respond to one of your points right now, so I picked the most important one - to me, anyway. I apologize for any rudeness you have read from my posts. I have a very dry sense of humor and sometimes my posts come across as condescending. I’ve been trying to find a system to use when I’m being facetious, tongue-in-cheek, or sarcastic. If I have come across as rude I have not communicated my points properly and that is probably my fault. And so I apologize deeply and ask for your forgiveness. I always *want *to be charitable but I often fail (it’s that plank in my eye that I keep trying to get rid of but it’s firmly lodged).

If this thread is still open tomorrow I’ll respond to the rest of your points. If it isn’t open, I hope we have the opportunity to engage in debate again in a future Harry Potter post. I find this subject absolutely fascinating.

God bles!! 🙂
 
Portrait, I haven’t forgotten about your reply to me. I’ll get to it soon, I promise.
You haven’t even read them and now you’re telling one who has to go back and “revisit” them? :eek:
Yeah, that’s pretty ironic, isn’t it?

I will give Portrait credit on one level, though: his latest replies on the subject of obedience and authority in the series did use specific examples from the books, so that’s something. When I reply to him, I’ll make sure to illustrate - also with specifics - why the series does not undermine legitimate authority but actually honors and promotes it.
Hopefully by that time … I will have read the entire series of books.
Enjoy, LittleSoldier! They’re so good. 🙂
I am simply adding evidence to the argument that children (5-16) learn through observation, imitation & reinforcement.
I understand that. In Harry Potter, though, “magic” consists of things like waving a stick made with unicorn hair at the bad guys and incapacitating them by yelling, “Petrificus totalus!” They also ride flying brooms; face dragons, centaurs, and giants; and one character turns a desk into a pig.

Fantasy creatures, bad Latin, safely nonrealistic fantasy. 🙂
You know, of course, that another Harry Potter thread will be appearing soon. And I intend to be there.
I really hope we don’t start another one, because there are plenty others - such as this one - that are still active. 👍

We should just all move to that one to continue the discussion.
 
Dear Fone Bone,

Cordial greetings and hope all is well. A very good day to you.
You too. I’m pleased to have found an opportunity now to respond to your criticisms. Thank you again for dealing in specificity - it really gets the conversation somewhere.

That said, as someone who has read the series multiple times, I’m certain your concerns about its portrayal of authority and obedience are baseless.

When Harry and his friends disobey the rules, one of two things always results:

(a) They are reprimanded and punished by a legitimate authority. When this happens they are almost always contrite, and the narrator presents the situation in a way that makes Harry and his friends look unnecessarily reckless and guilty.

(b) They either get away with it, or - if not - the narrator presents their disobedience as nonetheless virtuous or justified. I’ll address this below.

There are some exceptions - for instance, the evil Death Eater pretending to be Professor Moody catches Harry breaking rules but lets him or even helps him. At the end of the book, however, the revelation that this was actually Voldemort’s most loyal servant really puts a damper on the notion that such disobedience was righteous. The lesson is clear and good.

So what about that second category? Well, when Harry and his friends’ disobedience is presented as good, that’s because it is.

As you admit, Portrait, there is a higher authority than any earthly one, and if any human authority contradicts or impedes the demands of the universal moral law, then disobedience is justified.

The good mentor figures, like Professor McGonagall, do occasionally punish or reprimand Harry, and he feels really bad in those situations. Legitimate authority - such as that of Albus Dumbledore - is always presented as trustworthy, and obedience to such figures is presented in the books as both virtuous and necessary.

On the other hand, you have figures like book five’s Dolores Umbridge. She is an evil usurper - and a moral relativist, to boot - and yes, disobedience to her regime is presented as good. But surely, Portrait, you don’t think that thematically undermining the authority of a relativistic usurper is anything but spiritually beneficial to children?

Now for some of your examples and assertions.
For example, obedience in Potter is anything but “obeying ones lawful superiors”.
Untrue. To trust authority figures like Dumbledore, McGonagall, and Lupin is presented in the books as both virtuous and necessary - especially when Harry doesn’t live up to it.

And the books even promote obedience to legitimate authorities whom Harry doesn’t like or trust on a personal level.

For example, in the climax of Order of the Phoenix Harry and his friends take matters into their own hands since all of the teachers they like and trust have been removed from Hogwarts by the usurping villain Umbridge. But there was a legitimate authority left that they could have gone to - Professor Severus Snape. Their choice to bypass him directly leads to the death of Harry’s beloved godfather.

Again, the message is clear, and the message is good.
If, they are reprimanded, it is usually by the professor that is law-abiding and supposedly has it in for them. Moreover, this is also the professor that is disobeyed, lied to and stolen from. The reason for this is quite simple. If you do not like a particular authority figure and consider that they are unfair to you, then your obligation to them no longer exists.
Unfair and untrue. Consider the following examples:

(a) It is McGonagall who severely reprimands Harry and his friends for sneaking out at night in Philosopher’s Stone. Harry and his friends like and respect Professor McGonagall, and they are disappointed in themselves for letting her down by their rule-breaking.

(b) As I illustrated above, sometimes not trusting or obeying Professor Snape - the one you reference above, though not by name - has disastrous consequences for them. This happens in the first novel too, when they’re sure he’s working for the bad guys, but they’re wrong and Dumbledore - the ultimate authority/father-figure - is right.

(c) Despite Harry’s personal animosity towards Professor Snape, Albus Dumbledore always insists that Harry show him respect and refer to him as “Professor.”
Courage, according to Potter and company, means looking for danger, usually after being told not to do so - more disobedience encouraged.
Except that this choice usually ends up being a disaster for Harry and his friends. Like in Philosopher’s Stone when McGonagall punishes them (as I already alluded to), or in Order of the Phoenix when Harry’s choice to bypass legitimate authority costs his godfather his life (as I also alluded to).

Numerous other examples abound: Dumbledore gives Harry an important task in Half-Blood Prince, which Harry basically ignores out of laziness. Dumbledore calls him out on this, and Harry feels bad - his disobedient negligence is presented for the reader as a bad thing.
Justice means that one can get away with almost anything if one is famous
The archetype of fame in Harry Potter is not actually Harry, who often shuns it, but actually Gilderoy Lockhart in Chamber of Secrets (Book Two). Lockhart’s arrogant sense of entitlement over his fame is repeatedly ridiculed as a false basis for his belief that he can do whatever he wants.
 
The characters in the novels continually act for their own self-interests. For example, Hermoine puts a full-body bind curse on her fellow class chum when he tries to prevent them from going into forbidden areas after curfew.
That example more than any other illustrates the erroneous nature of your interpretation, Portrait. As I explained before, Neville Longbottom’s attempt to curtail his friends’ rule-breaking is, at the end of the first novel, publicly glorified and rewarded by the headmaster, Albus Dumbledore, and it is those points that Neville’s insistence on obedience earns for Gryffindor House that cause Gryffindor to win the House Cup that year.

It is perhaps the best example of how Harry Potter glorifies and promotes trust in legitimate authority while undermining only the immoral machinations of relativistic authority or incompetent authority.
 
If you don’t think that children (5-16) copy things that they’ve read in books then I can only assume that you haven’t been around many children! 😉

Anecdotally, my own niece became a self identified witch at 11 using books (including fiction) as her guide. The claim that children (5-16) need hospitalising or therapy if they copy magic from books is simply silly, and, rightly, most parents and professional child carers would laugh at this.
Please bear with me. Sometimes I have problems with language processing. I’m not referring to children who are playing. If I were I would have to say that every single child in the world, with the exception of the autistic and profoundly mentally retarded (and I have doubts about them, too), would need to be in an (name removed by moderator)atient program.

I’m referring to older children (adolescents) who honestly believe completely that they can wave a stick with what they honestly believe is unicorn hair on the end of it and say some poorly contrived “Latin” words and that this will cause something truly magical to happen. That indicates a break with reality. That indicates psychosis. That indicates anti-psychotic medication and counseling. I’m not referring to those who have become involved in true occult activities, often because of their families. And I’m not referring to a young child who bangs on the door and yells “Let me in!! I’m Mighty Mouse!!” (that was me 😃 - I had and have a vivid imagination and love the horror and fantasy genres as long as the story is not too gory (as it is with someone like Anne Rice)).

Now what I’m about to write is anecdotal (and I apologize for my remark about anecdotal evidence and I’m somewhat confused as to why I posted it because my mentor taught me that there is absolutely nothing wrong with anecdotal evidence and I have argued for its use in other threads and have been laughed at because of it). I have known several women (mid twenties on up), diagnosed with MPD, who claim to have been involved in occult activities, including giving birth to babies who were sacrificed. Some of these women have been my friends. This was going on during that whole MPD/hypnosis scandal and I was involved in it, too (as a patient undergoing hypnosis and being told over and over that I was a victim of an occult group that was out to get me and that my father had done unmentionable things to me and that I should sue my parents). I found this idea hilarious because I was raised as a Catholic and went to Mass every Sunday and did all the other things that Catholics do. I managed to remove myself from these people (my psychiatrist and psychologist almost lost their licenses over their behavior and if I had had the strength to testify they probably would have) and have tried to not look back. Until now.

None of these women had access to the Harry Potter books as they had not been published yet. A few of these women believed that if a certain “code word” was spoken they would die. One claimed that her identical twin had been sacrificed at birth. To be honest, I don’t believe they were really involved in the occult but I have a feeling that some adults have been raised as members of an occult group, although I find this idea horrifying. They are victims, they did not have normal childhoods, and they are in desperate need of help which they often do not find.

The reason I’m writing this is because these are serious issues and I don’t want it to appear that I am downplaying the role of the occult in these women’s lives. They were (and probably still are) suffering immensely from what either really happened to them or at least what they truly believe happened to them.

That is one end of a spectrum. At the other end are children/adolescents/teens who have no sense of imagination. And in the middle is the rest of us, those who have a sense of imagination and who know that what is presented in the Harry Potter series is simply not real.
I’m sorry that I haven’t operationalised the term children, but as I’m not conducting any empirical research it seems irrelevant to me. However, the age group I have in mind as most vulnerable are broadly the 8-11 year olds, although each child is different in terms of their development.
Thank you. That’s basically what I was asking for. I should have written my post differently.

-----continued in next post-----
 
-----continuation of last post-----
The other issue is that Kohlberg has two theories of development - which did you mean? I have to confess that I don’t remember seeing a reference to him in your previous posts, so my apologies. I’m guessing that you’re talking about his theory of moral development, which is irrelevant anyway as we’re talking about learning about the occult and learning to postively value that set of beliefs. The process of reasoning right from wrong and the move to a more nuanced understanding of morality simply isn’t relevant here.
This is a bit difficult to explain. When I was in college Kohlberg’s stages of moral development were merged with stages of cognitive development. It was stressed that before a person could advance to the “final” level (and that was haggled about after Kohlberg added another level) he/she would have to manage to get through all previous levels. Cognitive and moral development work hand in hand. No five year-old child can understand the famous scenario with the pharmacist and the poor man with the very ill wife. This is what was taught to me. This may not have been correct and I’ve probably forgotten an awful lot of what I learned (it was a long time ago and my interest was in lizards, not human children). Let me read up on this and get back to you because I’m not going to pretend that I know what I’m writing about if I don’t. And right now I don’t. But I do believe that moral development is relevant in this thread. Younger children do not have the mental capacity to understand the situations presented in the Harry Potter books. Most wouldn’t be able to read them, anyway. But if they are too young to be able to comprehend that these are books about *fictional *characters, they are too young to be reading these books. They are not developed enough in a cognitive sense. They are also not developed enough in a moral sense.

That is why I agreed so strongly with the last paragraph of your post. Parents need to be aware if their children are reading these books and should actually have read them before their children read them, or at least at the same time. Parents are responsible for protecting their children. Children who show a strong inclination toward an actual true belief in the occult and a desire to participate in the occult should not be reading these books. And parents should *always *use these books as a teaching tool.
As regards the issue of aggression. I clearly said in my post that the work I’d cited was about aggression and that some would therefore reject it as irrelevant. I also talked about the problems of generalising the findings! I then went on to state that what was relevant was the *process of learning *demonstrated. 🙂
As you did. My apologies. Again.
Could I also ask that you not be rude to me in your public posts? I find some of what you’ve implied and written to be offensive and unnecessary. Thanks. 👍
And to this I have already replied but I want to apologize again. I am very, very sorry. But if you are referring to my comment about pop/rock music, that is an honest question because the implication was made that pop/rock music is evil. And I just cannot understand how anyone can make such a broad statement. If you check back through the last several pages of the thread you’ll see the lyrics of a few pop/rock songs which were presented to show that the idea of pop/rock being evil just doesn’t make any sense.

Does this mean I can be rude in PMs to you? Kidding. I’m kidding. Really. I’m working on it. Seriously.
 
It is perhaps the best example of how Harry Potter glorifies and promotes trust in legitimate authority while undermining only the immoral machinations of relativistic authority or incompetent authority.
To me, this clearly correlates well with Church teaching. We are not required to comply with immoral laws. And we really shouldn’t, anyway.

Legitimate authority relates to Divine Law and God. The Church teaches us how to apply Divine Law to everyday situations. If what you have written is the message the books teach I have absolutely no problem with children of the appropriate age reading them, just like I have no problem with children of the appropriate age watching Star Wars. That is, as long as the parents are there, ready to discuss the books.

I’m ordering the books because I know I’m going to be highlighting and adding notes.
 
mdrummer,

You state that ‘there are no real witches in dark basements brewing love potions and spells’. I am sorry to tell you that you are wrong. There are thousands (if not more) of people calling themselves witches and brewing potions and spells.
Ok… but (and I mean no offense to any Wiccans) the idea of creating a love potion or a good luck potion is pure nonsense. If I’m wrong, tell me what someone would have to do to concoct a love potion or to make a potion that would allow them to morph into another human being or better yet one that would allow all one to succeed in any endeavour… until the effect wears off of course. You don’t know, not because you’re not a witch but because IT DOESN’T EXIST. Sure practitioners of Wicca may brew up some random ingredients in hopes that it has a certain effect but we all know that is a load of rubbish.

Or tell me of the multitude of times you’ve heard of someone creating fire out of thin air or causing something to float in midair without wires. Yes I’m sure there are Wiccans who may read an incantation out of a book hoping for the favor of a false God but they are not creating fire, causing things or people to float, causing people to become petrified or any other such OBVIOUSLY made up effect.

It’s a matter of distinction. Yes there are people who label themselves witches, but they do NOT have the abilities described in the HP books and it’s an entire different sort of “witchcraft”. So in the sense that it’s used in the HP books… no there are no real witches. If you’re going to tell me I’m wrong you could at least attempt to show me how.

In fact the closest thing to anyone performing the kind of acts described in HP have been done by only one person I can think of, David Copperfield… why are we not berating him??? Because we know it’s FAKE and again, if a child doesn’t know the difference… that’s on that child’s parents. Not HP… not David Copperfield… nobody to blame but parents who’ve not taken the time to properly educate their children.
 
Furthermore, in Rowling’s world these potions’ power come from the nature of their fictional fantasy ingredients. No supernatural power is invoked. Everything operates on the natural level. That is why it’s not occultic.
It is all supernatural. It is all occultic. I believe you are deluding yourself. These are witches making potions and casting spells. 🤷
 
Look, Mickey, it’s been pointed out to you before that that is the bad guy speaking
And as I have pointed out…sometimes the line is blurred between “good” and “bad” cahracters. The occultic themes are projected by many of the characters. For example, in the “Prisoner of Azkaban” Harry is told in the classroom that This year we are going to learn the basic methods of the divination.****
 
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