Church Exorcist and Pro Life Priest Warns Against Harry Potter

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… If you think O’Brien is “good”, then your truly have deluded yourself. We’ve already shown that he’s completely bias, and inconsistently bias at that. His “opinions” revolve on whether or not he agrees with the subject matter, not an objective view. He vilifies certain works for using certain elements (I think dragons was one), and then ignores it’s use in another work for no reason (I guess it’s for “the greater good” of the work, which he only allows for works he likes).

He’s basically Glen Beck or Keith Olbermann, but he parades himself around like he’s Peter Mansbridge or Lloyd Robertson (who are excellent Canadian news anchors).
Now here’s where the debate gets ugly: pointing a finger at a good and faithful Catholic author and calling those who read his works “deluded,” just so you can defend your fantasy magic you-know-what.

So, I would like to be clear. We’re “deluded,” and O’Brien isn’t “good,” all because we are disagreeing on HP?

Now if people didn’t think these books were doing anything to pollute minds…:rolleyes:
 
*“The child who has been educated in good literature… will not easily become an addict of contemporary movies and television programs and cheap novels that devastate the soul and take it away from the Christian path.” *
Father Seraphim Rose
👍 What a great quote! I would defend that statement forever. Why? The truth, simple as that.
 
Roger that! You are welcome. You would have found him sooner or later. He seems to be the most public anti-Potter.
Hm…why are all these good Catholic apologists/writers/priests against promoting Harry Potter? :hmmm:

Well, I said it once, I’ll say it again: It all comes down to your conscience.
 
So, in your own opinion, what makes Harry Potter the latter and not the former (in regards to Fr. Rose’s quote)?
Because I don’t see HP affecting a young mind in a way that will help build their life in Christ instead of destroy it/make it lukewarm. You can agree with this.
 
Now here’s where the debate gets ugly: pointing a finger at a good and faithful Catholic author and calling those who read his works “deluded,” just so you can defend your fantasy magic you-know-what.

So, I would like to be clear. We’re “deluded,” and O’Brien isn’t “good,” all because we are disagreeing on HP?

Now if people didn’t think these books were doing anything to pollute minds…:rolleyes:
sighs I’m really getting tired of pulling this out…
This weird thing about dragons is the pet idea of Michael O’Brien, and it always amazes me that so many Catholics have paid attention to it. He contradicts himself in his book, misunderstands some of the fantasy works he attempts to analyze, and even abuses Christian theology. His overview of dragon imagery in world mythology is selective, inadequate, and inaccurate. The book is simply terrible, and yet I keep finding people who take it seriously.

O’Brien’s favorite trick is tossing around certain inexplicable words to lead you by the nose. He compares fantasy works with “traditional” fairy tales, but never explains what he means by “traditional.” Dungeons and Dragons is a “cult,” but he never explains why he calls it that. Dragons are positive symbols in China because of “dualistic eastern religions,” but he doesn’t explain why dualism would lead to positive dragon symbols. Nor does he explain why serpents are consistently negative in Zoroastrianism, which is unquestionably dualistic. He mentions Tiamat from the Enuma Elish as a sort of dragon and seems to think that helps his case, but he’s apparently unaware that Tiamat’s vanquisher, Marduk, has serpents and dragons among his sacred symbols. He claims J. R. R. Tolkien is on his side in all this, but he is apparently unaware of Tolkien’s Farmer Giles of Ham, which contains a tamed dragon, the very thing O’Brien claims will drag children into neo-paganism.

When attacking the work of Madeline L’Engle, he criticizes her for describing cherubim as dragon-like, apparently unaware that in ancient iconography, cherubim are winged sphinxes. He is also apparently unaware that seraphim are winged serpents with legs–that’s a positive use of snake imagery right out of the Bible. He also gives no account, that I remember, of John 3.14 or of the good dragon, representing Mordecai, who battles the evil dragon in the additions to Esther. Scripture does not contain a univocal use of serpent imagery, so there can be no basis for a Christian argument that snakes in fiction must always represent only one thing, all the time, unless we’re prepared to condemn the Bible as a confused neo-pagan work.

He trips over his theology on a few occasions. In an attempt to discuss beauty as a property of being and the symbolic use of beauty in fairy stories, he gets confused and ends up–I hope by accident–saying pretty people are inherently better than ugly people. Even though he praises fairy tales for showing evildoers as ugly and do-gooders as beautiful, he turns around in one of his essays on Harry Potter and attacks J. K. Rowling for doing the very same thing.

During that aforementioned criticism of L’Engle, he criticizes her for (correctly) depicting evil as non-being, even though he admits she’s basically right on that point. But though O’Brien himself (correctly) understands demons as beings as wholly dedicated to evil as beings can be, and (correctly) criticizes L’Engle for a universalist bent, he (incorrectly, very incorrectly!) says some living human beings are the same way, “completely ruled by evil.” Sometimes he sounds more like a Lutheran or Calvinist than a Catholic.

He also excuses George MacDonald for his universalism. In Lilith, MacDonald depicts even Satan being saved, and O’Brien gives this a pass, but for some reason, that sort of thing is absolutely condemnable when Madeline L’Engle does it. He also praises MacDonald for depicting Lilith being converted back to good, even though she’s a demonic figure, though he condemns the depiction of the conversion of other demonic figures. The heroic characters in Lilith also use magic, just as Lilith does–yet when discussing Harry Potter and other fantasy works, he condemns books where both heroes and villains employ magic. For some reason, the use of magic by both good and evil is something O’Brien is willing to excuse in works by the authors he favors. O’Brien simply can’t be consistent in his criticism, so how can anyone seriously expect fantasists to use ideas like O’Brien’s as a moral guide for writing their work?

O’Brien may be a fine novelist. I know from experience he’s a competent painter. But in the realms of folklore or literary criticism the man is a sophomore, the Richard Dawkins of Catholic literary moral criticism, making facile arguments based on some master key to interpreting stories that he claims to have discovered, and huffily dismissing anyone who disagrees with him as “illiterate.” I do not understand why anyone treats A Landscape with Dragons or O’Brien’s essays on this subject as anything other than an embarrassment.
So yeah. Sorry girl but O’Brien isn’t all that. Catholic or not, I’m a literary critic as well and religion is no excuse for a poor critiquing style.
 
Hm…why are all these good Catholic apologists/writers/priests against promoting Harry Potter? :hmmm:

Well, I said it once, I’ll say it again: It all comes down to your conscience.
For me, I find that it boils down to two possible causes. They’re either:

A.) Jumping on the fundamentalist bandwagon.

B.) Ignorant of literary theory, lack understanding of fiction, and/or are simply judging based on hearsay and simple-minded observation. In other words, they’re overstepping their boundaries (“speaking of things where they are not wise” as Socrates might have put it).
 
Because I don’t see HP affecting a young mind in a way that will help build their life in Christ instead of destroy it/make it lukewarm. You can agree with this.
I sense a false dichotomy. What you’ve said gives an impression that for anything to be considered “good”, it must be of religious nature or something.

Books like Harry Potter are for pleasure reading. They’re not really supposed to do anything serious like “help build their life in Christ” but neither are they inherently evil. Many forms of entertainment are neutral like that.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lil_flower_luv
"Hm…why are all these good Catholic apologists/writers/priests against promoting Harry Potter?

Well, I said it once, I’ll say it again: It all comes down to your conscience. "

I’ll reverse your question, if these books are so bad, then why are all thes good Catholic apoligists/writers/priests for promoting Harry Potter. Because there are folks on both sides.
Because I don’t see HP affecting a young mind in a way that will help build their life in Christ instead of destroy it/make it lukewarm. You can agree with this.
I couldn’t possibly agree with that statement. Having read the books and discussed them with my children, there are a myriad of points where Rowlings is reinforcing christian beliefs.
  • Dangers of divination/fortune telling
  • Limbo/purgatory
  • Atheism, it’s danger, the rejection of the concept of an after-life
  • Nobility and virtue of self-sacrifice
  • Danger of damaging your soul through the evil one does in this life
  • That whether you win or lose conflicts in this life, if you have damaged your soul in the process you have lost for eternity.
  • The danger of becoming to attached to the things of this world
I could go on for a while, but then, I’ve read the books and as I said my kids have had some interesting observations from things they’ve observed in the books.
(And yet, they never have talked about wanting to do magic themselves…)
 
Now here’s where the debate gets ugly: pointing a finger at a good and faithful Catholic author and calling those who read his works “deluded,” just so you can defend your fantasy magic you-know-what. We’re “deluded,” and O’Brien isn’t “good,” all because we are disagreeing on HP?
No, it’d be for all the reasons in DGDDavidson’s critique as quoted in reply #432.
Hm…why are all these good Catholic apologists/writers/priests against promoting Harry Potter?
I suppose it’s because there’s always an exception or two to the rule.

Far more Catholic thinkers and priests enjoy Harry Potter. It’s not just Fr. Fleetwood.

If I were you, I wouldn’t try to build an argument from authority based on consensus about this.
I don’t see HP affecting a young mind in a way that will help build their life in Christ instead of destroy it/make it lukewarm.
Actually, because of the blatantly Christian symbolism, themes, and structure, the Harry Potter novels quite obviously nurture a faith and life in Christ in the soul. This is really impossible to miss for anyone who reads the series and actually pays the slightest attention to what he or she is reading… that is, unless this person has been living under a rock for 2000 years and has never heard of Christ.

Then they might miss the obvious Christian themes out of ignorance of Christianity itself.
 
I couldn’t possibly agree with that statement. Having read the books and discussed them with my children, there are a myriad of points where Rowlings is reinforcing christian beliefs.
  • Dangers of divination/fortune telling
  • Limbo/purgatory
  • Atheism, it’s danger, the rejection of the concept of an after-life
  • Nobility and virtue of self-sacrifice
  • Danger of damaging your soul through the evil one does in this life
  • That whether you win or lose conflicts in this life, if you have damaged your soul in the process you have lost for eternity.
  • The danger of becoming to attached to the things of this world
I could go on for a while, but then, I’ve read the books and as I said my kids have had some interesting observations from things they’ve observed in the books.
(And yet, they never have talked about wanting to do magic themselves…)
Well said!
 
Now here’s where the debate gets ugly: pointing a finger at a good and faithful Catholic author and calling those who read his works “deluded,” just so you can defend your fantasy magic you-know-what.

So, I would like to be clear. We’re “deluded,” and O’Brien isn’t “good,” all because we are disagreeing on HP?

Now if people didn’t think these books were doing anything to pollute minds…:rolleyes:
As LW pointed out (again, I think it’s the second time in this thread), O’Brien has no idea what he’s talking about. If you agree with O’Brien, then what are we suppose to say? The guys not consistent. His favouritism and bias analysis make me think of relativism, not Catholicism. He’s not using some objective criteria to look at the info, he’s just says whatever happens to be on his mind.

How are we suppose to follow the opinion of a guy who can’t even make up his mind on what his opinion is?
 
Hm…why are all these good Catholic apologists/writers/priests against promoting Harry Potter? :hmmm:

Well, I said it once, I’ll say it again: It all comes down to your conscience.
My conscience is clear when it comes to Harry Potter, because I can read the books, and understand them - and I am sure they are not harmful.

You could verify this for yourself, if you read them. You do not need to rely on the word of an “expert” to tell you what to think.
 
Here is why it is painful for anyone who has actually read Potter to view O’Brien as anything other than a crank. One can choose an O’Brien paragraph almost at random from a representative article and find that it is full of things that are UNTRUE, HALF-TRUE, NONSENSE, or JUST PLAIN DUMB. And, when O’Brien runs out of argument, he resorts to RANT.

For example, have a look at this sample: catholicnewsagency.com/column.php?n=90
…The series is also about the usefulness of hatred and pride, malice toward your real or perceived enemies, seeking and using secret knowledge, lies, cunning, contempt, and sheer good luck in order to defeat whatever threatens you or stands in the path of your desires. It is a cornucopia of other false messages: The end justifies the means. Nothing is as it seems. No one can really be trusted, except those whom you feel comfortable with, who support your aims and make you feel good about yourself. Killing others is justified if you are good and they are bad. Conservative people are bad, anti-magic dogmatists are really bad and deserve whatever punishment they get (hence the delicious retributions against the Dursleys). The ultimate cause of evil is rejection of magic: the arch-villain Voldemort, for example, first went off track when he became a dysfunctional boy abandoned by his anti-magic father. Then there’s the adolescent romance in the atmosphere, a potent element when mixed with magic, usually latent but growing with each volume and culminating in domestic bliss for the central characters at the end of the final volume. Yes, Harry faces near-satanic evils, passes through an unceasing trial of conflict and woe, triumphs against insurmountable odds, saves the world, marries Ginny and brings forth with her a new generation of little witches and wizards. If it were a spoof or satire we might laugh. But it presents itself as very serious stuff…So deathly and hollow.
The series is also about…the usefulness of hatred and pride

UNTRUE. That’s why all the really hateful characters are so successful in the end?

The series is also about…malice toward your real or perceived enemies

UNTRUE. At the last moments, when Voldemort is truly beat but doesn’t know it yet, Harry urges him to stop, to quit, to turn away from the path he (Voldemort) has chosen. Voldemort kills himself when his own spell backfires against harry’s attempt to disarm Voldemort.

The series is also about…seeking and using secret knowledge

UNTRUE. Secret knowledge contained in books and libraries and taught by professors at a school.

**The series is also about…lies, cunning, contempt, and sheer good luck in order to defeat whatever threatens you or stands in the path of your desires. **

HALF TRUTH Yes, Harry, in the tradition of Huck Finn, is willing to break the small rules in the service of the larger ones. When caught by authorities (nearly always) he accepts his punishment.

NONSENSE As for winning by sheer good luck, well, it happens in real life too. Did you never read about the Battle of Midway? What did Wellington say about Waterloo? “A damn close-run thing?”

**It is a cornucopia of other false messages: The end justifies the means. **

UNTRUE Which worked so well for Grindelwald and Dumbledore?

**Nothing is as it seems. **

NONSENSE In fiction-writing if everything really IS as it seems, then you have a very boring book. (See: Murder on the Orient Express if you are unclear on this concept.)

**No one can really be trusted, except those whom you feel comfortable with, who support your aims and make you feel good about yourself. **

JUST PLAIN DUMB These people are also known as “your friends and family”.

**Killing others is justified if you are good and they are bad. **

HALF TRUTH Harry doesn’t kill anyone intentionally, as it turns out. Killing by “good” characters in HP is described in the context of “warfare”. I’m sure you have heard of just-war theory.

Conservative people are bad…

UNTRUE The Dursley’s are not bad because they are anti-magic, they are simply bad. They spoil their boy, they fail to take good care of Harry when he is a child. They are whiny and unpleasant characters. Harry saves Dudley from a serious threat at one point.

The ultimate cause of evil is rejection of magic…

SHALLOW ANALYSIS Voldemort was abandoned by his mother. His father was not anti-magic, but was never closely connected to his mother, having been tricked into marrying her. His father is not described in the book as being anti-magic– just disconnected. If anything it would be social class (poor mother- rich father) that best explains the rift. Ultimately, however, Voldemort is evil because he is evil. It was not a case of “denying who he is”. He has cruel tendencies from an early age. Social research is well aware of the relationship between broken homes and criminality in the real world. This is about all the “reason” given for evil in the books.

Then there’s the adolescent romance in the atmosphere…

DUMB Umm, okay, so to put that another way, Harry’s relationship, as described in the book leads to marriage and parenthood – what a shocking concept!

**Yes, Harry faces near-satanic evils… saves the world, marries Ginny and brings forth with her a new generation of little witches and wizards. **

RANT At this point, he has run out of evidence, so he switches to a mocking tone and pulls out the thing that really bugs him, the word “witch”.

**If it were a spoof or satire we might laugh. But it presents itself as very serious stuff… So deathly and hollow. **

MORE RANT Actually, Rowling does not present herself as “serious stuff”. The books are full of humor, irony, and jokes. But it is lost on O’Brien.
 
Conservative people are bad…

UNTRUE The Dursley’s are not bad because they are anti-magic, they are simply bad. They spoil their boy, they fail to take good care of Harry when he is a child. They are whiny and unpleasant characters. Harry saves Dudley from a serious threat at one point.
They’re just a bad family. Aunt Petunia was jealous of her sister Lilly (she later re-channels this into a general hate for magic people), and Harry coming into the picture is just going to aggravate that. It’s not a commentary on anything, Harry just had a bad family upbringing. It’s all too true for far too many people in life, so it’s not surprising that it appears in fiction (a case of “art imitating life”).
The ultimate cause of evil is rejection of magic…

SHALLOW ANALYSIS Voldemort was abandoned by his mother. His father was not anti-magic, but was never closely connected to his mother, having been tricked into marrying her. His father is not described in the book as being anti-magic– just disconnected. If anything it would be social class (poor mother- rich father) that best explains the rift. Ultimately, however, Voldemort is evil because he is evil. It was not a case of “denying who he is”. He has cruel tendencies from an early age. Social research is well aware of the relationship between broken homes and criminality in the real world. This is about all the “reason” given for evil in the books.
It’s pretty obvious that Voldemort is a sociopath, or has a severe mental disorder. Trying to take Voldy as “representative” in some way is pretty much showing that you’re out of arguments. It’s like people who try to use the KKK as “representative” of conservatives, or Nazi’s as “representative” of Germans, or people who firebomb abortion clinics as “representative” of pro-lifers.

It’s a dirty argument tactic that’s purpose is nothing less than to distract the audience from rational discussion by invoking emotions. That’s the way you manipulate people, you play on emotions or intangibles like faith or “sense of security”. You see it here at CAF all the time, and I don’t even think that people realize it. Essentially, it boils down to denying a person free will to make their own decision by imposing yours on them and then playing with their emotions to make sure they understand that you’re right and they’re wrong.

It’s basically Applied Stockholm Syndrome; you override someone’s will with your own.
 
The end justifies the means.

I find that statement deliciously ironic. I would like to ask O’Brien how he can find fault with that as it appears, at least to me, that he believes his end goal of keeping people from reading HP justifies his means of misrepresentation, pervarication and obfuscation of what are actually in the novels.
 
Another irony- I’m really not much of a Harry Potter fan. (I was disappointed that there was not more integration of the magical with non-magical. Could have been much more interesting- frankly thought Dudley should have been the one to finish off Voldemort with something along the lines of a .50 Barrett rifle) Sorry wandering. I’ve been posting out of a sense of the injustice at the way some are representing the novels.
 
Another irony- I’m really not much of a Harry Potter fan. (I was disappointed that there was not more integration of the magical with non-magical. Could have been much more interesting- frankly thought Dudley should have been the one to finish off Voldemort with something along the lines of a .50 Barrett rifle) Sorry wandering. I’ve been posting out of a sense of the injustice at the way some are representing the novels.
Dudley would favor the L115A3.

timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/afghanistan/article7113916.ece
 
My conscience is clear when it comes to Harry Potter, because I can read the books, and understand them - and I am sure they are not harmful.

You could verify this for yourself, if you read them. You do not need to rely on the word of an “expert” to tell you what to think.
Dare to think for yourself. 👍

I haven’t read Harry Potter…not my thing. I have seen the movies…not really much different than Narnia or Lord of the Rings…sci fi fantasy genre.

I think some forget that this “exorcist priest” is “human”, puts his pants on one leg at a time, just like everyone else. Also, has an opinion, just like everyone else.🤷
 
Another irony- I’m really not much of a Harry Potter fan. (I was disappointed that there was not more integration of the magical with non-magical. Could have been much more interesting- frankly thought Dudley should have been the one to finish off Voldemort with something along the lines of a .50 Barrett rifle) Sorry wandering. I’ve been posting out of a sense of the injustice at the way some are representing the novels.
Pfff. Military-style guns are overrated and lack finesse. If you’re gonna combine the two, you’ll find no better example than in stuff like Devil May Cry and Final Fantasy. :cool:

Gunblades and Gun Kata FTW!! >XD
 
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