Church Exorcist and Pro Life Priest Warns Against Harry Potter

  • Thread starter Thread starter Brooklyn
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The above was cut n pasted without attribution from :

decentfilms.com/articles/magic.html
In response to Portrait’s long response, I was ‘beaten to the punch’ by mdrummer and jharek. MDrummer’s response was eerily similar to the response I was anticipating once you (Portrait) were able to post again. On a side note, feel better!

Now, concerning Estesbob’s comment above, my main concern is not about the lack of citation, although that is troublesome from the credibility standpiont. I believe that it would have been nice all along to have this link (I’ve noticed pieces of other arguments drawn from here) because this actually tries to provide textual references. Granted, as others have pointed out, they aren’t really consistent, but at least it goes beyond the hypothetical situations and vague remarks about ‘insidious danger’ and ‘cultural unwholesomeness.’ I don’t have the chance to read the entire article now, but I certainly shall when I get home this evening!
 
Not to mention that it further shows your (Portrait) inability to think for yourself.

It seriously makes me want to vomit when I consider just how ignorant you are in this area which you choose to continue to argue about with the arrogance of an expert who’s done nothing but study the subject at hand… which you’ve clearly not done. It was one thing when you couldn’t justify your lame statements but it’s entirely another when you not only make statements that as Jharek pointed out aren’t true… you claimed them as your own thought. Pathetic.
 
You sayin’ I’m predictable?! 😛
Great minds think alike!

However, I do think we are being a bit harsh on Portrait in terms of the citations. Portrait has never portrayed to have read the books, and we have said before that we would appreciate textual references, even from the critics Portrait chooses to follow. Yes, it was wrong to not cite, but it was neither for a grade nor monetary gain, so the offense, I believe, is not ‘unforgivable’ :o)

At the end of the day, at least Portrait has provided us with something to actually respond to with textual evidence backing our beliefs. It is much harder to argue against unsupported banter!
 
Great minds think alike!

However, I do think we are being a bit harsh on Portrait in terms of the citations. Portrait has never portrayed to have read the books, and we have said before that we would appreciate textual references, even from the critics Portrait chooses to follow. Yes, it was wrong to not cite, but it was neither for a grade nor monetary gain, so the offense, I believe, is not ‘unforgivable’ :o)

At the end of the day, at least Portrait has provided us with something to actually respond to with textual evidence backing our beliefs. It is much harder to argue against unsupported banter!
True… but he has merely provided us with someone else’s opinion but when he is provided with factual information that negates his point he blatantly ignores it. i.e. the remainder of the quote from Father Amorth which he conveniently overlooked since it didn’t suit his argument.

Even if he’d cited the source I’d have been just as disgusted as it shows very simply that he’s unable to read, analyze and draw his own conclusions yet continues to argue facts with garbage that he himself doesn’t even fully understand the contradictions of.

In other words… since he’s not thoroughly read any of the books in question (as Jharek pointed out) he has no business comparing them especially when the person he quoted for reference would disagree with him. It’s like a web of lies in the sense that his contradictions become more and more elaborate as he tries to validate an invalid argument.

I do commend you for seeing the “bright side” of it (you are much nicer than I)… but at the end of the day I can’t see anything in his posts but horse manure.
 
All that bile doesn’t address the contradiction in one of your most weighted arguments.

Father Amorth says that ALL magic is a turn to the devil. FACT

Narnia and LOTR both have good characters that use magic. FACT

You cannot justify the use of magic in either book in consideration two the above to pieces of information. FACT
Dear mdrummer,

Hello again and thankyou for the above.

In haste

Whilst I cannot speak for dear Father Amorth, I suspect that he has seen things in the Potter series that he has found deeply disturbing and unsettling and that is the reason for his very blunt warning. Given his expertise, a warning which the faithful ought to take very seriously.

Whether he would make a distinction between innocent fantasy magic of the fairy godmother variety or the magic of LOTR or Narnia, I am not quite certain. Nevertheless, I and many other Catholics do not feel that we are being inconsistent or hypocritical in our acceptance of Narnia and LOTR, whilst giving a wide-berth to the morally inferior Potter books.

Wholesome fantasy, irrespective of how willdly imaginative it is, must surely reinforce the moral order of the universe which, I believe, LOTR and Narnia certainly does, whilst the morally inferior Potter books undermine it. In the Potter series you have corrupt fantasy with a little cosmetics, the cosmetics are the ‘values’ woven into the tales by the author.

It should be noted also that Father Amorth not only rejects the Potter books because the ideas expressed in them are from the realm of darkness etc., but because they contain a disordered morality which he quite rightly believes reinforces moral relativism.

That’s my last tonight mdrummer. God bless you and goodnight my friend.

Warmest good wishes as always,

Portrait

Pax
 
Whilst I cannot speak for dear Father Amorth, I suspect that he has seen things in the Potter series that he has found deeply disturbing and unsettling and that is the reason for his very blunt warning. Given his expertise, a warning which the faithful ought to take very seriously.

Whether he would make a distinction between innocent fantasy magic of the fairy godmother variety or the magic of LOTR or Narnia, I am not quite certain.
Seriously… do you have some disorder that prevents you from reading everything???

I’m not asking you to speak for him and you don’t need to be certain HE SAID IT HIMSELF IN THE SAME INTERVIEW YOU QUOTED:

**“because magic is always a turn to the devil." **

ALWAYS… as in under no circumstances is it different.

SOOOOOO According to Fr. Amorth…

The MAGIC in Narnia and LOTR is a turn to the devil.
 
Looks like this has been discussed to death, nevertheless… :twocents:

Video games, movies, and all forms of popular entertainment are inundated with violence, promiscuous sex, and other terrible behavior. That doesn’t mean that those behaviors will be emulated by an intelligent child or young adults that are given instruction in proper behavior and the Catholic faith. The same goes for Harry Potter.

I honestly don’t see the big deal concerning Harry Potter in particular, however. I think the issue has been hyped up because the series uses words that in other contexts have demonic connotations, like the word “witchcraft.”
 
Charity, please… :o (just lurking)
Hey Roly, long time no talk!

I know… and believe me… I’m trying. My posts that seem to be insulting are nothing compared to what they are before they’re edited 🙂
 
Whether he would make a distinction between innocent fantasy magic of the fairy godmother variety or the magic of LOTR or Narnia, I am not quite certain. Nevertheless, I and many other Catholics do not feel that we are being inconsistent or hypocritical in our acceptance of Narnia and LOTR, whilst giving a wide-berth to the morally inferior Potter books.

Wholesome fantasy, irrespective of how willdly imaginative it is, must surely reinforce the moral order of the universe which, I believe, LOTR and Narnia certainly does, whilst the morally inferior Potter books undermine it. In the Potter series you have corrupt fantasy with a little cosmetics, the cosmetics are the ‘values’ woven into the tales by the author.

Please support how the Potter books are morally inferior. We have given several examples of the strong moral rules and actions portrayed in the series. Can you give some backing to the claims that they are morally inferior? Please note that being morally inferior has nothing to do with a book being written as a ‘Christian’ book or not - there are many non-Christian books that have good morals in them, so the fact that Tolkien and Lewis set out to write ‘Christian’ books is moot. Although, on a side note, Lewis claims that he never deliberately set Christianity into his fiction, but that was just the effect of his beliefs on his works. Maybe splitting hairs, but I think it is important to note that it was never his intentions to write Christian allegory, but rather, his beliefs brought Christian allegory into his works.

It should be noted also that Father Amorth not only rejects the Potter books because the ideas expressed in them are from the realm of darkness etc., but because they contain a disordered morality which he quite rightly believes reinforces moral relativism.

As has already been noted, it doesn’t matter what basis he rejects these books on, because he made the stern declaration that any use of magic is evil. Therefore, if you are following his opinion, you are forced to reject Narnia and Middle Earth. If you choose to abandon his opinion, then try to find another line of attack, but the good Fr. has seemingly reached the end of his line concerning this thread.

That’s my last tonight mdrummer. God bless you and goodnight my friend.
Rest up, feel better, and look forward to more lively debate tomorrow!
 
I know… and believe me… I’m trying. My posts that seem to be insulting are nothing compared to what they are before they’re edited
We’re all trying… One piece of advice that has been given to me is to type your post and wait 10 minutes and decide then if you still feel like sending it after the 10 minutes are up. 👍 (although if you are interacting in a very lively thread it might not be so good to wait 10 minutes, but for an inactive thread it would be great!)
 
Rest up, feel better, and look forward to more lively debate tomorrow!
Dear Mumbles,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thankyou, I slept quite soundly and am feeling a little better now.

Let me address first the point raised by yourself and mdrummer respecting Father Amorth’s statement. One can surely accept what Father says about the Potter novels without necessarily having to rigidly apply his words to the great Christian classics of C.S. Lewis and Tolkein or even the Wizard of Oz or Sleeping Beauty. My apologies if that sounds rather obtuse but I do not believe that such a remark renders one ipso facto guilty of hypocrisy or inconsistency. It is really a question of distinguishing between things which essentially differ and not attaching a disproportionate weight to the mere force of logic. For to do so is to fall into a fundamentalist mindset of either/or and not to think with an authentic Catholic mind; I understand the logic behind this sort of reasoning, but I just think it’s an example of fallacious thinking that is usually employed for the purpose of driving a man into a corner in order to discredit his position. However, the fact remains gentlemen that it is the Potter series of books which have come under severe censure by the exorcists, not the works of Lewis and Tolkein. Do we defer to what these men, with there wealth of cutting edge experience about the occult and witchcraft, have said respecting the Potter novels or do we dismiss them as unworthy of any serious consideration, simply because their expertise does not extend to the fantasy genre? Of course not.

The Potter series of books are, in comparison with Lewis and Tolkein, without doubt morally inferior. For example, it is frequently asserted that the Potter boy is essentially good and morally sound. Many of us would beg to differ, but let us see. He blackmails, blows up his poor aunt, uses trickery and deception and oftentimes breaks the rules. Frequently he resorts to lying to extricate himself from trouble and is not above allowing himself to be provoked into taking revenge against his student enemies. How is his character supposed to provide a good role model to Rowling’s young readership, given that he is the hero and chief protagonist in the series?

In these and a plethora of other details throughout the series, the unsuspecting child is insiduously (sorry there is no other word for it) encouraged in his baser instincts whilst lip service is paid to some woolly morality. Thus nowhere in the entire series do you find any reference to a system of moral absolutes with which actions can be measured, an indispensable prerequisite in children’s literature. It will simply not do, by way of reply, to say that our world no longer uses a black and white morality model, but has changed from a checkered pattern to a spectrum. Unfortunately, some aspects of our decadent and relativistic culture may have done this, but God still sees things in black and white. Moreover, our brief is to teach God’s standards of right and wrong, not Rowling’s fickle and warped notions. Moral absolutes are immutable and hence perpetually applicable and relevant, whether some fantasy fiction author approves of them or not. Is it any wonder if so many children have an unstable moral compass if they spend their timee assimilating unwholesome reading material like the Potter books?

Then the issues of authority and obedience (two of the most unpopular words in our society) are also problematic in the Potter books. The Potter boy’s faults are seldom punished and if they are it is by the negative authority figures in the tales. In fact the positive authority figures actually *reward *Potter for his insubordination when brings about some good. His lies, acts of vengeance and misuse of powers are, alas, frequently ignored. Indeed, the message which rings out loud and clear in the series is that the ends always justify the means. Now, needless to say, this all sits very comfortably with our morally bankrupt Western world and its boasting about “endless grey areas” and hatred of authority and discipline, but it is hardly consonant with divine revelation - “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness” (Isa. 5: 20). Clearly, there is no nebulous morality from God’s standpoint and neither should there be from ours, or from the books we permit our impressionable children to read.

Unfortunately, corrupt morally ambiguous fantasy books such as the Potter series will only serve to undermine the unchanging moral order of the universe in the minds of our children. That many Catholic parent’s are unable or unwilling to see this is surely evidence that their faculty of spiritual discernment has been severely impaired and blunted. To respond to this by saying that the Potter tales do at least show good as better than evil is, to be perfectly frank, an insufficient defence of the series. Rowling has sadly blurred the lines between good and evil, indeed redefining some of both. The real question is surely: what is the nature of good and evil as Rowling has presented it?

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
Your use of adjectives instead of facts is ridiculous as is the fact that you want to claim that HP is full of “obvious dangers” when you ignore obvious contradictions.

For clarity regarding Father Amorth’s statement.

“because magic is ALWAYS a turn to the devil." Consider the defintion of “always”, actually all three from thefreedictionary.com are quite suitable

al·ways (ôlwz, -wz, -wz)
adv.
  1. At all times; invariably: meaning under no circumstances is it different
  2. For all time; forever: meaning at no time is it different
  3. At any time; in any event: meaning in any context
So, no… one cannot accept a statement like this and apply to one thing without the other as he was very explicit in saying ALWAYS.

You know Portrait you remind me of something someone said to me when I was younger. It may have been a quote from somewhere but I’m not sure.

“The more someone talks, the less they have to say.”
 
One can surely accept what Father says about the Potter novels without necessarily having to rigidly apply his words to the great Christian classics of C.S. Lewis and Tolkein…However, the fact remains gentlemen that it is the Potter series of books which have come under severe censure by the exorcists, not the works of Lewis and Tolkein.

**But it is not for you to decide this, and so it is obtuse if you continue to quote Father Amorth because you cannot say with certainty how Father feels on these other matters. The truth is he said that any magic, whether portrayed of good or bad, is of the Devil - the end, nothing further. If he were to support Narnia and LOTR, than his quote would be either incomplete (needing to explain the difference) or contradictory (if he chooses not to explain). Either way, as it stands now, the statement is what it is, and neither you nor I can interpret as such. I could just as easily argue that, since these works were not specifically Catholic, they use the guise of Christian allegory to lure in unsuspecting children about magic. Absurd as this sounds, it has the same amount of leverage as you do because the quote doesn’t distinguish. And, be that as it is, it must be put to bed.

Also, concerning how Potter is targeted, that is precisely our point. That series of books is unfairly being targeted, because the charges against them hold true in Narnia and Middle Earth, but they escape this. We’ll get into whether Potter is a good role model or not in the next section, but remember that Edmund Pevensie is quick to anger, lies, fights his siblings, betrays the Christ-like figure, and causes many deaths by his actions, all for candy. But he repents, he owns up to what he did, causes the death of Aslan, and then fights the good fight. I could overlay that sentence over the plot of Harry Potter and it would be a perfect match. Also, and I’m really not sure, but isn’t it Edmund in Voyage of the Dawn Treader who steals the dragon’s gold and is covered in scales?**

…He blackmails, blows up his poor aunt, uses trickery and deception and oftentimes breaks the rules…How is his character supposed to provide a good role model to Rowling’s young readership, given that he is the hero and chief protagonist in the series?

**He is a hero because he is still a teenager. By ‘blowing up his aunt’, remember that this is in the sense of a balloon, not a bomb. And he is punished for this. It is a serious offense to attempt to use magic outside of the school if you are underage precisely because you can’t make those decisions. Also remember that this is before he knows he has magical abilities, and part of the purpose of the school is to teach wizards when it is appropriate to use magic.

I’m not sure of blackmailing, so please provide an example. The use of ‘trickery and deception’ sounds much more malicious than it is, for it is the same things any teenager does. This makes him relatable to children - remember that only Christ and Mary are free from sin. Further, he is punished for what he does, and it is often Harry caught retaliating and not the bullies responsible who are punished. This teaches the lesson that retaliation only harms oneself.

You say he frequently lies, and yet you haven’t really given any examples of this. Whenever he is directly confronted by the Headmaster or other teachers, he tells the truth, even when it leads him to trouble.**

Thus nowhere in the entire series do you find any reference to a system of moral absolutes with which actions can be measured…God still sees things in black and white.

**I don’t know how you say there is no moral system in Harry Potter. If you want something enumerated like the Ten Commandments, sorry but no. However, the overall idea is love for your self and your neighbor. This is applied consistently by the good guys, and when they don’t uphold it (as I’m sure none of us perfectly uphold the 10 Commandments), they are reprimanded.

And if God sees in black and white, we must ask the Church to discern for us what is evil. So when the Church does not rule something to be evil, you are taking that authority to deem it as such. I don’t remember that, which means there must be some gray area. And if there is gray area there, perhaps there is for Potter as well.**

The Potter boy’s faults are seldom punished and if they are it is by the negative authority figures in the tales. In fact the positive authority figures actually *reward *Potter for his insubordination when brings about some good.

Absolutely wrong, actually. When Harry commits wrongs, he is reprimanded for them. He is even punished for breaking curfew when they rescue the girl from possession by Voldemort. He is then rewarded for his heroic actions, but that penalty for breaking curfew is still noted. How many soldiers, before they are awarded medals for bravery, are scolded for not following orders directly?

…Rowling has sadly blurred the lines between good and evil, indeed redefining some of both. The real question is surely: what is the nature of good and evil as Rowling has presented it?

Prove this. Rowling has focused solely on the struggles of good and evil, which even play out in Harry due to his relation to Voldemort from his childhood attack. But there are many instances where the threat of evil is identified when others wish to ignore it, when people stand up against prejudice and hate, and how even when fighting your enemies, you cannot do so immorally or you will lose yourself. Lastly, committing heinous acts destroys your soul, and it will be split forever, even after death, unless you repent. Doesn’t sound too ambiguous to me.
 
I’ve enjoyed the dialogue on these books. I am a mom of an 11, 9 and 7 year old. They have not read the books as I was and am very careful about what they read, watch and listen too. Thus far this has proven to help them be very morally conscience girls.

Actually just yesterday we started reading the books together. I felt that they are older and I have done plenty research and am ready to read them with my girls. We will only read them together and that way we can talk about everything we face.

I do believe in being cautious as evil does exist and will slip into whatever crack we allow no matter how small it might be whether it be potential issues in books, tv, movies and all other ways we receive information. Satan is crafty, but the Holy Spirit is still better!

So far we’ve only made it to page 12 as my 9 year old read to us all while driving around yesterday afternoon.

My 9 year-old’s conscience voiced that she did not like even reading the word ‘stupid’ twice and she did not like that the sisters did not talk. So my girls recognize right and wrong, good and evil and we call it what it is and discuss that some times people do things that are not good and we pray for them and learn what not to do from some and what to do from others.

This book series and my girls desire to read it for so many years has been a good experience of my role as Mom to be the primary teacher and first determiner of what my girls are ready for. I am also very sure that I will be involved in their introduction to some of these things so that we can talk. This will help them to know what is real and what is not and what is alright to “play with” and what is not.

Looking forward to the great lessons and the great dialogue these readings will bring us.
 
This book series and my girls desire to read it for so many years has been a good experience of my role as Mom to be the primary teacher and first determiner of what my girls are ready for. I am also very sure that I will be involved in their introduction to some of these things so that we can talk. This will help them to know what is real and what is not and what is alright to “play with” and what is not.
Thank you for providing a mother’s perspective. I think this is what all of us who are pro-potter are trying to say.

Yes the books just like any other media can lead to bad things in an uneducated or undeveloped child. Kudos to you for properly educating them and making sure they understand these things as all parents should do instead of writing the books off as bad.
 
Well, unfortunately I can’t respond to everything I’ve missed. If I leave out something essential, please feel free to point it out. I don’t have internet at home, so my cafe trips are my only chance to respond. Sorry if this causes the conversation to be choppier than it should be & thanks for your patience.

In reference to Fr. Amorth’s remarks, I would defend Tolkien’s magic by reminding you that in his books (not so much the movies), Tolkien’s use of magic is almost entirely due to the influence of the divine in nature: The wizards themselves are semi-angelic beings, sent for a purpose, and their magic is inherent in their nature, much as Raphael’s is in the book of Tobit. The elves don’t consider their powers “magical” - Galadriel corrects Sam when he asks to see “elf-magic” when she tells him it is better labeled “grace”. The magic of the ring, and of Sauron and Saruman is evil, and Tolkien leaves no doubt about this, their magic is the magic of grasping power, not the “magic” of making use of your gifts. In this way, the magic in Tolkien is essentially sacramental - there is little difference between it and the “magic” of the Consecration, or the “magic” of the Saint’s influence in our lives. I am certain that Fr. Amorth is not opposed to Sacramentals, to the Sacraments, to miracles, and these are all in a sense “magic” when you look at them with fresh eyes. He is using the term Magic to refer to the pursuit and study of power, which is the general, modern understanding of magic, it is the form of “magic” studied by Potter, and it is always evil.

Lewis’ magic is closer to the magic used in the Potter books - less sacramental, less inherent in nature, but his books are also more directly allogorical and, you’ll notice that the good characters are always using magic under the direct permission of Aslan. The magic outside of his influence is, again, always evil. Lewis’ understanding was that, like polygamy and household gods (Old Testament) magic was, though never fully lawful, once more permissable than it has become. This is perfectly in line with the developement of Salvation History, as we see many things pruned away slowly, because of the hardness of our hearts, and though his magic is not as ideally “Catholic” as Tolkien’s, it still stands outside the form of Magic used in Harry Potter.

We also would want to check, for clarification, if Fr. Amorth made his remarks in English, because if he didn’t, a reading of the original might clarify the remarks further. Even in English, though, remember that your understanding of the word Magic is not necessarily the same as his, due to cultural, experiential, and educational differences, and take every effort to clarify with a closer look into Fr. Amorth’s other public statements, books, or information.

On a related note, if I can ask - why is it that Fr. Amorth’s concern about the books, coming, as it does from a man who spends his life studying and battling the forces of Satan, is completely disregarded by you who have read the books, but don’t have the understanding of the devil that he has. How is it you can disregard his opinion so completely? I’m not advocating blind obedience in this case, only consideration. It disturbs me to see the advice of someone who is so aware of evil discarded and even somewhat derided… Can you explain it to me?
 
On a related note, if I can ask - why is it that Fr. Amorth’s concern about the books, coming, as it does from a man who spends his life studying and battling the forces of Satan, is completely disregarded by you who have read the books, but don’t have the understanding of the devil that he has. How is it you can disregard his opinion so completely? I’m not advocating blind obedience in this case, only consideration. It disturbs me to see the advice of someone who is so aware of evil discarded and even somewhat derided… Can you explain it to me?
THIS is a valid question. I will not claim to speak for all on this but here’s my take on it.

It is said that violence, sex, drugs, and other immoral behavior in media can desensitize us. That door swings both ways. A man like Fr. Amorth and someone like Portrait (who I’m sorry is showing blind obedience) is over sensitive.

I can disregard his opinion on this matter so completely because there’s no evidence. People who share Portrait’s view will quickly point out that the dangers (that they can not prove) are very subtle and that’s why they’re dangerous.

To that I say “an idle mind is the devil’s playground”. If one has the inability to think for themselves then yes the books may be a danger. I (like most people here) are intelligent enough to read the books with no danger to my faith. In fact it was approximately a month AFTER I finished the series that I decided to convert.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top