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Mickey
Guest
Do a search. It’s easy to find.
I believe the logical reasons for avoiding this material are abundant and evident.
My apologies. I do not read minds or hearts.
I would love to get an audience and ask him.
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styrgwillidar
Guest
Mickey,
I completely agree with this. I noticed the number of shows on childrens networks (Disney/Nickelodean) that portrayed the adults as clueless, ‘uncool’, out of touch and sometimes just plain dumb; contrasted with the kids being portrayed as so much smarter than the adults! Canceled the cable and have never regretted it.
Peace to you and yours,
G
gatewood1988
Guest
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Mumbles140
Guest
Actually, Mickey, we aren’t, and your attempts to ‘laugh off’ our arguments doesn’t fit. If you want to claim that any magic is Occult, you are condemning a large portion of world literature, which is fine if you do. Our argument is that the magic contained in Harry Potter is no different than the magic seen in cartoons, Middle Earth, Narnia, or fairy tales, so your desire to label that as Occult makes me wonder why the others aren’t labeled as well. If you want to address my previous questions, we can go from there.You’re kidding, right?
You’re kidding, right?
Oh, I see now. These particular witches and wizards are acceptable because they were born that way. I’m sure the children will undersatnd this important distinction.
Unfortunately, I was unable to look up the passages and commentary on them last night, and I fear I may not be able to until Sunday. If you want to provide a synopsis, gladly do so. If not, I’ll wait until I have time to study them and then make an assessment.
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Mumbles140
Guest
Please provide specific examples of how Harry Potter falls under the Occult magic described by the Catechism and previously posted. If you want to make the claim that HP’s magic is Occult but other magic isn’t, than prove it.
Also, Portrait, if you have time today, please address the Lucy Pevensie issue.
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Mickey
Guest
Me too!!! :dancing:
Many blessed years to you and yours!
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mdrummer5
Guest
It says that they were not taught properly. That’s not George Lucas’ fault just like a kid trying to summon a magical broom isn’t Rowling’s fault.
gatewood if memory serves you were the one who indicated in a previous post that you had been drawn to the occult because of some friends and wanted to blame HP before it was pointed out to you (and you fully admitted) that you didn’t have a firm grasp on reality. I mean no disrespect but again, that’s a lack of education so if we are looking to place blame that is on your parents not Rowling.
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Mickey
Guest
Believe me. I do not see it as a laughing matter.
I certainly understand your tactic of attempting to justify Potterism by comparing it to other material. But the fact remains that the Potter story lines revolve around children witches who are attending witch school while being taught how to cast spells by witch teachers.
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Mickey
Guest
From the Sorcerer’s Stone:
Professor Snape says: “I don’t think you will really understand the beauty of the softly simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the **delicate power **of liquids that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the senses, I can teach you how to **bottle fame, brew glory, even stop death **… Potter! … What would I get if I added powdered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood?” [p. 137]
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gatewood1988
Guest
Oh I know, I am just saying, I see that now of course. See my parents would not let me watch anything that mentioned magic, but then my mom allowed me when I got into Jr High to read Harry Potter. Yes I was sheltered, but I guess what I am saying is now that I am an adult and am re-reading the series, isee it through different lenses I guess. I was just making an observation that there are in fact wierdos who decide to take an obsession to an “nth” degree. I am just saying if there was no mention of magic in the world, there wouldn’t be alot of the lterature and media we have today. I am sure Miss Rowling had no intention whatsoever as to drag people to hell with her literature. I am also sure that George Lucas never meant for the idea of the Jedi order to become a religious reality either. There is some literature though, like Silver Ravenwolf’s novels directed towards teen girls that are a big no-no or the Circle of Three series, and those are very open to the occult, maybe we should focus on getting those away from our children instead.
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Mumbles140
Guest
If you have such an abundance of logical reasons, then present them as such instead of cracking jokes and making attempts at being witty.Do a search. It’s easy to find.
I believe the logical reasons for avoiding this material are abundant and evident.
My apologies. I do not read minds or hearts.
I would love to get an audience and ask him.
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Mumbles140
Guest
Ok, but what is driving your opinion that it is school children and teachers that make the magic worse than other cases? So any magic other than that actually being taught in schools is okay, or is your condemnation of magic broader than Hogwarts?
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Mickey
Guest
I have presented my views as logically as I can. I am not cracking jokes and I have never bragged of being witty. In fact, I am the most wretched of all sinners. I am sorry that you do not understand my stance. Please forgive me.
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Mickey
Guest
The focus here is on Potterism. I will state it one more time:
There are child witches and wizards who are attending a witch/wizard school. In this school they are learning how to cast spells, chant incantations, make drug-like potions etc. They are being taught by more experiences witches/wizards. Do I think this is occult- like? Yes. Do I think this is proper for our children and teens to absrob? No.
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Mumbles140
Guest
Congratulations, you found magic at a magic school. Although you aren’t familiar with magic potions from Narnia and LOTR, I trust there are some magic potions from Disney movies you are familiar with, too. But Rowling made the point of stating that only those with magical abilities were able to do potions, so this isn’t really damning evidence. In fact, if a school that was dedicated to teaching magic and had a class entitled ‘Potions’ did not actually teach potions, I would be concerned about the management of that institute!
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Portrait
Guest
F.A.O. Mumbles140/ Reply to Post 831
Dear Mumbles,
Cordial greetings and a very good day to you. I say, this thread has been a hive of activity since yesterday. Just hope other contributors will forgive any discontinuity to the current discussion occasioned by this response to an earlier post.
It may have been argued that the Potter series “is consistent with British fantasy literature”, but that does not necessarily mean that it is so; it is only so in the opinion of those who are arguing that this is the case.
No, I do not have some infelxible criterion by which I assume that any piece of literature written prior to the 1960’s is, ipso facto, going to be wholesome and culturally healthy, but I would wager that it is next to certain that it will be. Many men underestimate the impact of the cultural and moral revolution that occured in the 60’s, that decade of decadence, the many sad effects of which are still very much felt today. What I would contend here is that the laxity of moral standards and the far reaching social changes that occured in those libertarian times, facilitated the whole climate in which inferior fiction such as the Potter books could be written and then received by the public with such wide-eyed enthusiasm. If proof were needed that men have become desensitized by prevailing trends, then a lowered public opinion in the arts and literature is surely that irrefragible proof.
Now as regards Father Amorth and his comments that all magic is evil. You, and others, are of the opinion that if we accept Father’s words about the Potter series, then, to avoid being branded hypocritical or inconsistent, we must necessarily apply them equally to the classical works of Messers. Lewis and Tolkein. Having given the matter some careful thought I do not believe that this is an ineluctable conclusion by any means. It is a typical pro-Potterite line of reasoning which sounds superficially plausible, but is, nonetheless, fallacious and plainly wrong. It is supposedly one of those arguments designed to overwhelm and corner the anti-Potterites and, hopefully, make them realise just how stupid and illogical their whole position is. This reasoning is flawed because men are falling into a fundamentalist mindset by insisting on an either/or and failing to distinguish between things which *essentially *differ at their very core. Look, any reasonable man can see the difference between that type of “magic” that occurs in Lewis and Tolkein and that which occurs in the Potter books. In the latter, contrary to what is continually asserted, Rowling uses the symbol world of the occult as her *primary *metaphor and occultic activities as the dramatic engine of her plots (this was clearly discerned by Father Amorth, hence his blunt warning). However, this is hardly applicable in the case of the *Chronicles of Narnia *and *The Lord of *The Rings which are replete with Christian themes that are perfectly self-evident. These great authors decidedly use magical elements in a benign and Christian manner. In Rowling magic is presented in a Gnostic and pagan fashion through attractive ‘role models’ like Potter and Hermoine who, as Mickey observed, are students of witchcraft and sorcery. This is why the books are culturally unhealthy because they have the potential of lowering a child’s gaurd, both subconscious and spiritual, to actual occult activity that is growing at an alarming rate in our fallen world. Dearly beloved, it does not take rocket science to see that the Potter series does present a clear and present danger and can be a gateway to the occult. My plea is that the pro-Potterites learn to differentiate between inferior and morally ambiguous literature such as the Potter novels and the manifestly wholesome reading material of Lewis and Tolkein. Let us not, for polemical purposes, try to play down or ignore the fundamental differences and pretend they do not exist, when we know in our heart of hearts that they do.
As for Lucy Pevansie, I do not think that she presents any problem from a Christian standpoint inasmuch as she does not perform any kind of magic, nor has she been to a school of witchcraft (unlike the Potter boy). If you are alluding to the elixir that she uses for medicinal purposes, this is a gift (probably from Aslan originally, although that is an inference) and not some innate faculty, as in Potter, that only requires awakening and formation through the pursuit of esoteric knowledge and power. In fact I think that her case actually illustrates the fundamental difference between the Potter series and Lewis that I spoke of in the preceding paragraph. Sorry, but I do not see anything here that destablises the anti-Potter position, on the contrary, I see something that very much strengthens it by underscoring a basic difference.
Finally, you have totally misunderstood my remarks regarding book burning mumbles. Not suggesting that we burn the Potter books and goose-step around the pile. No there is no need to go to those lengths. My point was that if men were brought to such a state of penitence and they felt led to burn their personal copies of Potter books, then there was biblical precedent for such an action. No one is suggesting that they must take this course of action. Nowadays a man, if he felt so convicted about such a thing, would most probably just consign the books to wastepaper basket for recycling. Many years ago after my sound conversion to Christ I felt convicted to such an extent that I parted company with my entire rock/pop collection, which, I may add, was quite sizeable.
Mumbles, if I don’t respond to any posts again today, have an enjoyable and relaxing weekend and I will, God willing, be on the boards next Moday pm. Goodbye dear friend.
God bless you.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
Dear Mumbles,
Cordial greetings and a very good day to you. I say, this thread has been a hive of activity since yesterday. Just hope other contributors will forgive any discontinuity to the current discussion occasioned by this response to an earlier post.
It may have been argued that the Potter series “is consistent with British fantasy literature”, but that does not necessarily mean that it is so; it is only so in the opinion of those who are arguing that this is the case.
No, I do not have some infelxible criterion by which I assume that any piece of literature written prior to the 1960’s is, ipso facto, going to be wholesome and culturally healthy, but I would wager that it is next to certain that it will be. Many men underestimate the impact of the cultural and moral revolution that occured in the 60’s, that decade of decadence, the many sad effects of which are still very much felt today. What I would contend here is that the laxity of moral standards and the far reaching social changes that occured in those libertarian times, facilitated the whole climate in which inferior fiction such as the Potter books could be written and then received by the public with such wide-eyed enthusiasm. If proof were needed that men have become desensitized by prevailing trends, then a lowered public opinion in the arts and literature is surely that irrefragible proof.
Now as regards Father Amorth and his comments that all magic is evil. You, and others, are of the opinion that if we accept Father’s words about the Potter series, then, to avoid being branded hypocritical or inconsistent, we must necessarily apply them equally to the classical works of Messers. Lewis and Tolkein. Having given the matter some careful thought I do not believe that this is an ineluctable conclusion by any means. It is a typical pro-Potterite line of reasoning which sounds superficially plausible, but is, nonetheless, fallacious and plainly wrong. It is supposedly one of those arguments designed to overwhelm and corner the anti-Potterites and, hopefully, make them realise just how stupid and illogical their whole position is. This reasoning is flawed because men are falling into a fundamentalist mindset by insisting on an either/or and failing to distinguish between things which *essentially *differ at their very core. Look, any reasonable man can see the difference between that type of “magic” that occurs in Lewis and Tolkein and that which occurs in the Potter books. In the latter, contrary to what is continually asserted, Rowling uses the symbol world of the occult as her *primary *metaphor and occultic activities as the dramatic engine of her plots (this was clearly discerned by Father Amorth, hence his blunt warning). However, this is hardly applicable in the case of the *Chronicles of Narnia *and *The Lord of *The Rings which are replete with Christian themes that are perfectly self-evident. These great authors decidedly use magical elements in a benign and Christian manner. In Rowling magic is presented in a Gnostic and pagan fashion through attractive ‘role models’ like Potter and Hermoine who, as Mickey observed, are students of witchcraft and sorcery. This is why the books are culturally unhealthy because they have the potential of lowering a child’s gaurd, both subconscious and spiritual, to actual occult activity that is growing at an alarming rate in our fallen world. Dearly beloved, it does not take rocket science to see that the Potter series does present a clear and present danger and can be a gateway to the occult. My plea is that the pro-Potterites learn to differentiate between inferior and morally ambiguous literature such as the Potter novels and the manifestly wholesome reading material of Lewis and Tolkein. Let us not, for polemical purposes, try to play down or ignore the fundamental differences and pretend they do not exist, when we know in our heart of hearts that they do.
As for Lucy Pevansie, I do not think that she presents any problem from a Christian standpoint inasmuch as she does not perform any kind of magic, nor has she been to a school of witchcraft (unlike the Potter boy). If you are alluding to the elixir that she uses for medicinal purposes, this is a gift (probably from Aslan originally, although that is an inference) and not some innate faculty, as in Potter, that only requires awakening and formation through the pursuit of esoteric knowledge and power. In fact I think that her case actually illustrates the fundamental difference between the Potter series and Lewis that I spoke of in the preceding paragraph. Sorry, but I do not see anything here that destablises the anti-Potter position, on the contrary, I see something that very much strengthens it by underscoring a basic difference.
Finally, you have totally misunderstood my remarks regarding book burning mumbles. Not suggesting that we burn the Potter books and goose-step around the pile. No there is no need to go to those lengths. My point was that if men were brought to such a state of penitence and they felt led to burn their personal copies of Potter books, then there was biblical precedent for such an action. No one is suggesting that they must take this course of action. Nowadays a man, if he felt so convicted about such a thing, would most probably just consign the books to wastepaper basket for recycling. Many years ago after my sound conversion to Christ I felt convicted to such an extent that I parted company with my entire rock/pop collection, which, I may add, was quite sizeable.
Mumbles, if I don’t respond to any posts again today, have an enjoyable and relaxing weekend and I will, God willing, be on the boards next Moday pm. Goodbye dear friend.
God bless you.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
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Mumbles140
Guest
For simplicity, I combined your two posts. First, no need to get all penitential, beating your breast in public and wailing for your sins. You were precisely cracking jokes and attempting to discredit our valid, logical arguments by repeatedly asking if we were serious.
Furthermore, you have presented a conclusion, but have failed to explain how you got there. I previously said if you did not wish to go into your reasoning, then abandon the debate. I am trying to find out what it is about the magic and its relation to the Occult. You seem very set against Harry Potter, and I want to know whether there is something specific about Potter, or if it is against the same type of magic we see in Fantasia, Disney movies, and the like. I tried finding a base ground to start from and you were, what could only be considered in court, a hostile witness.
If you don’t want to cooperate, I assume you don’t want to debate, which makes me think you are merely out to troll this thread than actually contribute to the argument at hand. If I am wrong, then prove me so and let’s really debate.
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Mickey
Guest
I found occultism at a witch school.
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Mickey
Guest
Why must you be so condescending? We are all sinners. I am worse than most. I do not beat my breast in public and I pray that I could ceaselessly weep for my sins.
I do not see your arguments as valid.
You get there by reading the Potter books and/or viewing the movies.
I am free to post here. If you do not like what I have to say, you do not have to respond.
Indeed.
It seems that you are the one who is hostile.
It does not matter if you resort to name calling. You do not have to respond to my posts.
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mdrummer5
Guest
I don’t agree with Mickey or Portrait here which I’m sure goes without saying at this point. However, at least Mickey is not trying to say that his point of view is true for Potter but not for Narnia and LOTR. On the other hand Portrait continues to ignore the contradictions in his arguments saying that they are clearly different despite the fact that it’s been pointed out to him repeatedly that his differences are in fact not.
Mickey, you ignored me because you misread one of my other posts but I do respect your view and the consistency of it… even if you can’t read this…
Portrait, you’re blinded by your arrogance.
Your ridiculous reasoning after finally addressing the contradiction in what Father Amorth said and your continued backing of Narnia and LOTR seems to want to assume that you knew of a hidden meaning in his message. That he obviously wasn’t including the type of magic found in Narnia and LOTR… please…
If you’re going to hold him in such a light do not attempt to add to his own words.
He said (again) “magic is ALWAYS a turn to the devil” until you provide another quote from him that backs your frankly stupid point that contradicts this then you’ve already proven mine.
Mickey, you ignored me because you misread one of my other posts but I do respect your view and the consistency of it… even if you can’t read this…
Portrait, you’re blinded by your arrogance.
Your ridiculous reasoning after finally addressing the contradiction in what Father Amorth said and your continued backing of Narnia and LOTR seems to want to assume that you knew of a hidden meaning in his message. That he obviously wasn’t including the type of magic found in Narnia and LOTR… please…
If you’re going to hold him in such a light do not attempt to add to his own words.
He said (again) “magic is ALWAYS a turn to the devil” until you provide another quote from him that backs your frankly stupid point that contradicts this then you’ve already proven mine.
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