Church Fathers on the Eucharist

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But are there not in fact vocations available for those like you who must live in the world but are trying to be separate from it? Or is it only for non-married women?

God Bless,
Maria
Hi Maria,

I was an aspiring secular carmelite for several years, but never could bring myself to making the promises. It was really much too liberal for my tastes also, and was somewhat divided, even amongst the sisters because of that. Some of us felt the order needed another “dis-calcing” 😉

I did frequent a Franciscan monastery - went to daily mass, weekly confession and spent a good deal of time in adoration. I had a regular confessor there for a time, but was advised by another priest to find another one b/c the one I was going to was very, very old. That was about 5 years ago, and the man is still alive and hearing confessions :rolleyes: . I should have stayed with him, but he is now only available if you ask for him at this point. He is about 95 years old, and I feel guilty watching him walk for 30 minutes to get from one end of the chapel to the confessional :eek: .

Anyway, when I started seeing someone else from the monastery, I was bringing up the question of seperation and was repeatedly told that it was not for me to do those things unless I had my husband’s blessing. At that time I really felt it was a neccessity in order to put to death some of those sinful affections.
 
Oh and I may again have already given you this, (I have told others but can never keep straight who:o ), there is a great book by St. Francis De Sales, *Introduction to a Devout Life. *It focuses on advice and practical step by step instructions on how a person like you is already married but is feeling a call for deeper devotion, can live that life, live that devotion through thier current circumstances.

A guide to making your whole life a prayer to God and praying without ceasing yet still being a wife.

You can find it at CA shop (link below) or you may even find it in your local parish library.

Introduction to the Devout Life by St. Francis De Sales

God Bless,
Maria

ps. Do you in fact have a sacramental marriage?
I do. We were married by a JP, then after my conversion we renewed our vows.

I have Introduction to the Devout Life, but I haven’t read it in many years. If I remember it correctly, I probably related very well to some of his writing there, and I do believe it would further justify my feelings about seperation, as I seem to remember him rejecting the type of “worliness” I was talking about in the other thread.

Thank you though for the suggestion. It is a great book, and maybe I will dust it off and read it again.

FCEGM,
Thank you. I am reading it…
 
. . .As a Catholic, I was so attached to the church and all it’s pomp and circumstance, that I felt a slave to her; constantly needing her intercession to attain God’s grace. Very attached to the formal prayers, rosaries, liturgies, statues, art, devotions, music - all these tangible, sensual mediums. I used to love all of it, but I eventually have found it all very distracting and restricting. This is what I mean by pure worship. I think those things are very distracting, restricting and potentially idolatrous. Perhaps it is not that way for everyone (?) - I cannot know, but I felt they were obstacles and I fear that God is offended that people turn to all of these things instead of coming directly to Him. . .
You are approaching this without thought of the Incarnation and how with that great event the world of matter is shown to truly matter. The Church responds to this Mystery by putting the beauty of created things (music, art, liturgy, icons, statues, etc.) to the service of the Incarnate Christ and our intimate connection with Him. The liturgy is a Mystery, a sacrament unveiling before eyes of faith the sacred scene of the Church, the mysteries of God’s life among men.

The Church is a liturgical theology in wood, glass, metal, and music if it is purposefully, wisely planned. Every part of it should speak of consecrated space and time where God takes up His presence and acts. We can point to it as the dramatic scene where the secular and sacred spheres fuse, where heaven and earth meet. Every bit of creation is swept into the liturgical movement leading up to God. The liturgy integrates the most elementary human actions – drinking, eating, washing, speaking, acting, living – and direct them to their destiny. We who live in cosmic space and time must reverberate with the sacred. The rhythm of our liturgical life must set the tempo for family and community life, and also must set the rhythm of our interior life that seeks to grow in its intimacy with the One we encounter in the Sacraments.

In the sacraments a loving familiarity with Christ develops; this familiarity should deepen our commitment to spend time with Him beyond the time of the liturgy of the Church. We will then see how the richness of our life in Him in the solitudes of divine encounter makes more vibrant our participation in the liturgical life of His Mystical Body.

The pivotal point to be understood is that Christ acts on us in the sacraments. By these material rites, these signs, the power of His resurrection is brought to the world. A sign is a way of expressing something; it is an outward visible mark of some spiritual state or action. Gifts express friendship, tears are the marks of grief – or of joy; a kiss is a sacred symbol of love. A world such as ours is filled with symbols for this reason; we are humans, a peculiar composite of body and spiritual soul, the meeting point of the worlds of matter and spirit. The implication of that is far-reaching: what is in our soul, in our heart, our mind, our will, find expression through the body and material things.

Consider how this enters into God’s plan of salvation. We could hardly expect the Lord to have a design for men and then proceed to treat them as angels. A plan of salvation for men will treat them for what they are: creatures composed of body and soul. And so the whole world of symbol, of sign, of human expression, of physical religious expression will be involved. St. John sums it up when he writes: “The Word was made Flesh and dwelt among us and we have seen his glory as it were of the Only Begotten full of grace and truth.” When God intervened to save men He became Man. By this tremendous fact the whole world of human and material things was radically elevated and transformed. Through its contact with the body of the God-Man, the world of matter is given a new polarity. Christ has assumed solidarity with our race, has entered in the deepest possible way into the world of humans and into the universe of matter as well. As a consequence, the final term of human things will be completely renewed and transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit coming to matter by its contact with the resurrected Body of the Man Who is God.

One cannot disdain the Liturgy and all the material accoutrements associated with worship of the Triune God and be found to be living a truly full - and human - response to the Incarnation.
 
. . . . As a Catholic, I was so attached to the church and all it’s pomp and circumstance, that I felt a slave to her; constantly needing her intercession to attain God’s grace. Very attached to the formal prayers, rosaries, liturgies, statues, art, devotions, music - all these tangible, sensual mediums. I used to love all of it, but I eventually have found it all very distracting and restricting. This is what I mean by pure worship. I think those things are very distracting, restricting and potentially idolatrous. Perhaps it is not that way for everyone (?) - I cannot know, but I felt they were obstacles and I fear that God is offended that people turn to all of these things instead of coming directly to Him.
I don’t know why this paragraph did not grab my attention earlier. What you may be called to now could very well, indeed, be towards a less sensual form of prayer. I would think that lectio divina would be a great form of prayer for you. Did you come across it in your Franciscan and Carmelite ventures? You pray the Scripture as a way of deeply shaping your heart in the Holy Word.
 
I don’t know why this paragraph did not grab my attention earlier. What you may be called to now could very well, indeed, be towards a less sensual form of prayer. I would think that lectio divina would be a great form of prayer for you. Did you come across it in your Franciscan and Carmelite ventures? You pray the Scripture as a way of deeply shaping your heart in the Holy Word.
I had once read about it several years ago in a Cistercian abbey. Not sure I remember it exactly, but I think at the time it was something I felt I was already doing with scripture. I’ll have to look it up. To be honest though, I’m not sure I even want to venture into it again. I used to love contemplative prayer (is that the same?) but I’m not sure I believe what I was experiencing in it was even from God, and I don’t really want to consider revisiting my past prayer-life and experiences. It was too consuming. I just can’t function with it. That is why I question it’s origins.

FCEGM,
I’m not ignoring you. I did read the link and your other post. I just have a lot to respond to regarding it, and I’m entering phase 2 of my hectic schedule. I’ll see what I can put together…

Thanks
 
Well Jesus said spirit that gives life, the flesh had nothing to offer. Could he have not been saying that his flesh had nothing to offer, but his spiritual self is what gives life? …
Forgive me - I don’t have time right now to read all the subsequent posts so someone may have already said this. How can you entertain the notion that Christ’s flesh had nothing to offer - if that were so, then why did he have to suffer His flesh in such a grusome manner and then die for us if His flesh had nothing to offer?

He did offer His flesh for the life of the world and we are so lucky to be the ones to have the true understanding of the Real Presence… what an awesome gift… to second guess this is the same as receiving a gift and then returning it after Christmas because it just didn’t suit your taste.
 
I had once read about it several years ago in a Cistercian abbey. Not sure I remember it exactly, but I think at the time it was something I felt I was already doing with scripture. I’ll have to look it up. To be honest though, I’m not sure I even want to venture into it again. I used to love contemplative prayer (is that the same?) but I’m not sure I believe what I was experiencing in it was even from God, and I don’t really want to consider revisiting my past prayer-life and experiences. It was too consuming. I just can’t function with it. That is why I question it’s origins.
Dr. Mercygate’s diagnosis: Nobody on an internet forum can possibly counsel you regarding your questioning the source of your consolation/disconsolation. You could profit from good, sound spiritual direction (if you can find it)
.
I know that the bad guy LOVES to confuse and scatter.
 
Dr. Mercygate’s diagnosis: Nobody on an internet forum can possibly counsel you regarding your questioning the source of your consolation/disconsolation. You could profit from good, sound spiritual direction (if you can find it)
.
I know that the bad guy LOVES to confuse and scatter.
I’ve tried for years to find a spiritual director. I’m not actively looking anymore since I wouldn’t know where to go - not exactly being Catholic now and all… But I was frequently advised to seek one.
 
FCEGM,

Well, I’ve spent a large portion of my spare time today making a response to this, but every time I step away and return to what I’ve typed, I see a problem with my response.

Apparently I should re-examine this. I am reminded of a perception I had many years ago and hadn’t recently been able to see. I’ll give it more thought.

Thank you.
 
JoyToBeCatholic,

I just wanted to drop a note to tell you that you are in my prayers.

I pray that God will led and guide you and make it obvious the path you are to take.

Ohh! As a Catholic have you ever prayed a novena? I have friends who were praying constantly about God showing them the way but it wasn’t until they prayed a Novena for it that it became clear to them.

I personally do not have such a story, but I know several friends who have done this and are sure that it is in this manner that God chooses to reveal His will for them.

God Bless,
Maria
 
These things might have already been explained sorry for repeating.

A difficulty arises when protestants link spirit (such as when Jesus states “spirit and life” in John6) with symbolic. The eucharist has a physical reality with spiritual benefits.
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KathyH:
Yes we are temples of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is united with my spirit, not my body. With out my spirit, my body is just flesh.
I have a problem with your understanding of what it means to be human. Think about the resurrection…souls by nature are eternal hence they have no need for a resurrection (they have a need for justification to enter into heaven but that is something else). If our bodies are of so little significance why did Jesus thought they were worth resurrecting both for himself and us for eternity? Why if of so little importance does God wishes for us to continue to commune and communicate with him throught the use of our bodies?
Being human does not mean having a soul (that would make us angels). Being human means having body AND soul. At the end this shows disregard to the beauty and holiness of God’s creation and yourself. You are falling somewhat towards “angelism/gnosticism” (spirit good-body bad).

Now I don’t have time to go through all the ECF listed but they mentioned Augustine in the site…here are other quotes. Protestants love selective quoting to diminish ECFs views.

“For he received earth from earth, because flesh is from the earth, and He took flesh from the flesh of Mary. He walked here in the same flesh, and gave us the same flesh to be eaten unto salvation. But no one eats that flesh unless he first adores it; and thus it is discovered how such a footstool of the Lord’s feet is adored; and not only do we not sin by adoring, we do sin by adoring.”

“For I promised you, who have been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the Sacrament of the Lord’s Table, which you now look upon and of which you last night were made participants. You ought to know what you have received, what you are going to receive, and what you ought to receive daily. That Bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the Body of Christ. The chalice, or rather, what is in the chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the Blood of Christ”

The majority ECFS (I cannot say all with certainty) understood the reality of the Eucharist, having assumed that the reader accept this truth (like with Augustine) they use the Eucharist as symbloism to explain other truths however they do this without refusing the first truth of the presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.
 
I apologize if this has been said. It is late and I didn’t take the time to read the posts. But, even so, if it has been said it is worth repeating. Sure, many of the early followers did not believe in the real presence. The answer is simple. Those who did not believe were heretics and were ex-communicated. St. Igantius warns us to stay away from such folks and not even associate with them for"they will perish in their own disputes…" Enough said. :yup:
 
sorry noticed a typo in my last post here…for Augustine’s quote it ought to read

“…and not only we do not sin by adoring, we do sin by not adoring.”

Sorry once again
 
I’ve tried for years to find a spiritual director. I’m not actively looking anymore since I wouldn’t know where to go - not exactly being Catholic now and all… But I was frequently advised to seek one.
Don’t worry about “not exactly being Catholic” with respect to finding a spiritual director – although they ARE hard to come by. You could dip your toe in the water by going to a church during hours for confession and when you go in, say: Father, I cannot make a confession now, but this is my problem . . ."
 
I’ve tried for years to find a spiritual director. I’m not actively looking anymore since I wouldn’t know where to go - not exactly being Catholic now and all… But I was frequently advised to seek one.
You have so many questions and are looking so hard, why don’t you just ask Jesus? I pray that the Holy Spirit will come to you and help show you the way.
 
You have so many questions and are looking so hard, why don’t you just ask Jesus?
Although laudible, and yes I would believe she did so, she does need the guidance of people as well, like we all do. We ask guidance and direction from Him, but He also gave that same authority to men to guide us. So we are called to be a community of believers.
 
JoyToBeCatholic,

I just wanted to drop a note to tell you that you are in my prayers.

I pray that God will led and guide you and make it obvious the path you are to take.

Ohh! As a Catholic have you ever prayed a novena? I have friends who were praying constantly about God showing them the way but it wasn’t until they prayed a Novena for it that it became clear to them.

I personally do not have such a story, but I know several friends who have done this and are sure that it is in this manner that God chooses to reveal His will for them.

God Bless,
Maria
Thank you for your prayers 🙂 . I haven’t done a novena in ages, but I do pray every day for God to lead me and show me His will.
Sure, many of the early followers did not believe in the real presence.
How do we know it isn’t the ones who believed in the real presence that were the heretics?
You could dip your toe in the water by going to a church during hours for confession and when you go in, say: Father, I cannot make a confession now, but this is my problem . . ."
Yes, that is how I’d gotten by for the past 10 years. I can’t do this where I live though w/out getting an appoinment. There simply aren’t priests sitting in the confessional waiting to hear confessions anymore, and the 1 that I know of that does, only does it for about 30 minutes, and he’s got a line of 10 people waiting. I used to go to the Franciscans to do it, but they told me they only wanted to hear confessions unless you make an appointment for direction. I’ve taken them up on the offer serveral times and never found anyone to do it. There are other reasons now why I would not be willing to go back to them anyway.
You have so many questions and are looking so hard, why don’t you just ask Jesus? I pray that the Holy Spirit will come to you and help show you the way.
I am asking Jesus. He is taking the round-about way of answering me ;). He knows how patient I am :rolleyes: .

Thanks so much. I still don’t see the light on this subject, but I’m considering the whole incarnation perspective…

God Bless
 
Although laudible, and yes I would believe she did so, she does need the guidance of people as well, like we all do. We ask guidance and direction from Him, but He also gave that same authority to men to guide us. So we are called to be a community of believers.
Well getting advice from a community of believers is fine, but when if is a question about God you need to ask Jesus what is right.
 
Well getting advice from a community of believers is fine, but when if is a question about God you need to ask Jesus what is right.
Yes, but then where do you get the answers? Evidently you have to ask people as well; like I said, Jesus guides us towards men and resources. God speaks through men. God speaks to us as well within ourselves, but we confirm those thoughts with the thoughts of the community that surrounds us.
 
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