Church Governance -- Bishops or Elders?

[TimothyH]

I must say I have found the exchange sad as (1) my mother’s family were Scottish Presbyterian converts and (2) there is much to admire in Presbyterian rigor and zeal, and the intellectual achievements of Calvinist scholars. I have found that former Calvinists make excellent Catholic apologists. In some respects, it was sad that Calvin broke with Rome. I cannot pretend to be an expert but the Calvinists had a dynamism that the Church could have used. However, nowadays, many Presbyterian churches are as prone to error as any other mainline Christian church and ordain gays/lesbians and otherwise have sold out on orthodox Christianity.

Imagine the day when they come back, what gifts they will bring, putting many of us to shame.

Imagine all that zeal… for Mary and the rosary!

What a red letter day that will be.

-Tim-

 

[Tiberius1701]

Imagine the day when they come back, what gifts they will bring, putting many of us to shame.

Imagine all that zeal… for Mary and the rosary!

What a red letter day that will be.

-Tim-

Amen! “Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentence. … Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents” (Luke 15:7,10). Let heaven rejoice!

 

[KnightIHSV]

This is very helpful. Thank you.

I was just curious as to which Bible is used by Presbyterians as perhaps the translation of Elders / Bishops has some impact on how the issue is seen on both sides. There are so many translations and often a Protestant apologist will cite RSV, NLT, CEV and other translations as sources for an argument, all in the one document.

I will say that I can understand the Presbyterian position on Church government much better than I can understand the Anglican position. I have never understood why the Anglicans kept titles such as Bishop when they broke from the Church in the 16th Century, when clearly the Anglican Bishops would no longer be in communion with the Church and the successors of St Peter and the apostles. Then there is the US Anglican church’s tendency to ordain Biblically-ineligible people as bishops …

 

[Tiberius1701]

This is very helpful. Thank you.

I was just curious as to which Bible is used by Presbyterians as perhaps the translation of Elders / Bishops has some impact on how the issue is seen on both sides. There are so many translations and often a Protestant apologist will cite RSV, NLT, CEV and other translations as sources for an argument, all in the one document.

I will say that I can understand the Presbyterian position on Church government much better than I can understand the Anglican position. I have never understood why the Anglicans kept titles such as Bishop when they broke from the Church in the 16th Century, when clearly the Anglican Bishops would no longer be in communion with the Church and the successors of St Peter and the apostles. Then there is the US Anglican church’s tendency to ordain Biblically-ineligible people as bishops …

I don’t think it’s as clear to many, many Anglicans that they’ve broken communion with the Church as it is to Catholics. Many High-Chruch Anglicans and Episcopalians still see themselves as part of the visible, universal Church, even if they’re not technically in communion with Rome anymore/yet. They often even revere the Popes, keeping pictures of Blessed John Paul II and Benedict XVI displayed in their church buildings and quoting from their writings. It’s really only a subtle change in the Rite of Ordination that keeps the Anglican Church from having the same claim to valid priestly and bishopric orders that the Eastern Orthodox Churches have. From the Anglican side it can be a pretty simple matter to remain completely oblivious to this subtle change, especially when it was in the interest of the founders of the Anglican Church not to tell their successors that the Vatican declared their ordinations invalid, and after the first generation died, the smaller number of the next generation that might’ve known about the invalidity of their ordinations would have the very same insentive not to tell anyone…

As for the “ordination” of patently Biblically-inelligible people as Bishops, I suspect that one’s just a matter of blinded and/or deliberately mal-formed consciences…

 

[KnightIHSV]

This is indicative of the problem – I do not know if the Church of Scotland is presbyterian or episcopal in government but this is the future of many protestant churches.

christian.org.uk/news/first-church-set-to-split-from-the-kirk-over-gay-clergy-row/

One of the questions that Catholics will have to face in the next few decades is how well we outreach to Protestants who are potential Catholics – who share all of our Biblical moral views but still need convincing on issues like justification, Mary and the nature of the Church.

 

[Tiberius1701]

This is indicative of the problem – I do not know if the Church of Scotland is presbyterian or episcopal in government but this is the future of many protestant churches.

christian.org.uk/news/first-church-set-to-split-from-the-kirk-over-gay-clergy-row/

One of the questions that Catholics will have to face in the next few decades is how well we outreach to Protestants who are potential Catholics – who share all of our Biblical moral views but still need convincing on issues like justification, Mary and the nature of the Church.

That’s so sad. Although, the more denominations make poor choices like that, the more people will see that the only solid Rock of Truth is the Rock of Peter. When my wife and I were looking for a spiritual home that had roots in history and a strong, biblical liturgy, we might’ve stopped at Episcopalianism if they hadn’t been making the same pathetically amoral decisions about their clergy and about the Sacrament of Marriage at the time. But, because they were being so profoundly unfaithful, we hardly gave them a second thought and instead followed the Truth to Rome. God truly works all things together for the good of those who love Him.

 

[KnightIHSV]

I saw this today regarding the Chuch of England’s intention to approve gay bishops:

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13831162

What can one make of this? One wonders what happens to sincere Anglicans who continually have these problems in their Church. They can now become Catholic hopefully.