Church infallibility

  • Thread starter Thread starter Draewell
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
D

Draewell

Guest
I have recently had a conversation with my mother about several Catholic doctrines and moral teachings. She is devoutly Catholic in many ways but she disagrees with many issues, and I personally believe that she therefore cannot be Catholic in the truest sense of the word. She disagrees with the Church’s teachings on birth control and female ordination (some others as well), but couldn’t really defend her positions, yet will not submit to the truth even though I defended the Churches standpoint on these issues thoroughly. I think the underlying problem is that she doesn’t believe the Church is blessed with infallibility to teach the truth. I was hoping someone could help me by pointing to biblical verses, quotes from Church fathers, and general logic to help me get my mother to accept this truth so that she will no longer be led astray by her personal opinions in any other issues in which she disagrees with the Church.

God bless.
 
One of the things that my RCIA Director made sure was in my head is to listen to and follow the church teachings. It’s what makes and keeps the Catholic church whole. This necesarrily doesn’t mean that every one has to agree with them.
For example, one must admit and follow the Pope as the head of the church, but one doesn’t have think hes the best pope. Or think that hes the best to be fulfilling that position. But one has to still follow him. Or one doesn’t have to like the Father at their local parish, but they do have to awknowledge the presense and divinity of Christ at the Priests Mass.
So I guess what I’m just trying to chip in is that she can still be Catholic and wish ABC’s and Women priest were ok. But she still can’t use ABC’s (without sinning that is), and she still has to awknowledge that Women Ordination is invalid.
If she isn’t following the rules, then I would agree she isn’t following the belief that the Church will always teach the truth.
 
Draewell said:
I have recently had a conversation with my mother about several Catholic doctrines and moral teachings. She is devoutly Catholic in many ways but she disagrees with many issues, and I personally believe that she therefore cannot be Catholic in the truest sense of the word. ss.
Click to expand...
well her standing with the Church is not dependent on your opinion, and you have stated nothing that might indicate she is “not Catholic” as you define it. If you frame your debate in those terms you will most assuredly fail to convince her even if your positions are correct. Stick to the issues and the method of exploring the truth together, and leave out such inappropriate judgmentalism if your true purpose is convincing her of the truth.
 
I’ll provide a few supports for the doctrine of the infallibility of the Church. The most common biblical one is
40.png
God:
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 16:18-19 RSV2CE)
Click to expand...
According to Wikipedia,
In usage to bind and to loose mean simply to forbid by an indisputable authority, and to permit by an indisputable authority. (article)
Click to expand...
As for the Church Fathers… Augustine wrote in his letter to Mani,
I would not believe in the gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.
Click to expand...
Additionally, in Scripture, St. Paul reminds the addressees of his letters to hold fast, not only to the written traditions, but also to the oral ones (I think this is from the letter to Timothy, but I’m not certain).
 
One of the hardest things for me to accept has been the denial of abortion in cases of rape and incest. However, as I believe that nurture is a stronger determinant than nature, and as the innocent unborn child had no say in the particulars which led to its conception, I think I’m coming to terms with this teaching of the Church. At any rate as this teaching against abortion under any circumstances has been delivered ex cathedra and thus with infallible authority from a succession of Popes. I must obey regardless of any misgivings, else I am not de fide.
 
puzzleannie said:
well her standing with the Church is not dependent on your opinion, and you have stated nothing that might indicate she is “not Catholic” as you define it. If you frame your debate in those terms you will most assuredly fail to convince her even if your positions are correct. Stick to the issues and the method of exploring the truth together, and leave out such inappropriate judgmentalism if your true purpose is convincing her of the truth.
Click to expand...
Well said! Until judgement is suspended, understanding cannot occur.
 
Faithdancer said:
One of the hardest things for me to accept has been the denial of abortion in cases of rape and incest. However, as I believe that nurture is a stronger determinant than nature, and as the innocent unborn child had no say in the particulars which led to its conception, I think I’m coming to terms with this teaching of the Church. At any rate as this teaching against abortion under any circumstances has been delivered ex cathedra and thus with infallible authority from a succession of Popes. I must obey regardless of any misgivings, else I am not de fide.
Click to expand...
On top of that, a child produced by rape is an example of God taking a base, evil action and using it to produce something good and beautiful. It would be a terrible shame to destroy even that!

On a side note, there’s something here that has always baffled me. Whey do people talk about “rape and incest”? If it’s between two consenting adults who happen to be related, why on earth should abortion be permitted? And if it’s not, isn’t it just a special case of rape (in other words, it would be like saying, “I go to work on weekdays and Wednesdays”)?
 
For Christmas or her birthday, buy her a “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition”.

The following quotes are from the CCC - - -

" 1577 “Only a baptized man (vir) validly receives sacred ordination.” The Lord Jesus chose men (viri) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry. The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ’s return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible. "

" 2399 The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception). "

" 2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:
Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality. "

You can also get her a copy of Theology of the Body" by Pope JPII.
 
Draewell said:
I have recently had a conversation with my mother about several Catholic doctrines and moral teachings. She is devoutly Catholic in many ways but she disagrees with many issues, and I personally believe that she therefore cannot be Catholic in the truest sense of the word. She disagrees with the Church’s teachings on birth control and female ordination (some others as well), but couldn’t really defend her positions, yet will not submit to the truth even though I defended the Churches standpoint on these issues thoroughly. I think the underlying problem is that she doesn’t believe the Church is blessed with infallibility to teach the truth. I was hoping someone could help me by pointing to biblical verses, quotes from Church fathers, and general logic to help me get my mother to accept this truth so that she will no longer be led astray by her personal opinions in any other issues in which she disagrees with the Church.

God bless.
Click to expand...
I think you are wrong, your mother can be fully catholic and think those things. First of all, those teachings are not infallible teachings becuase they werent taught ex cathedra. see Lumen Gentium. Many catholics believe in an idea called Primacy of Conscience. This is the idea that one should accept the Pope’s non-ex cathedra teachings as a default, but if one’s conscience disagrees one should follow one’s conscience.
 
Thank you forhe wonderful answers thus far. I do want to say that I have not judged my mother or told her that she is not Catholic, that would be quite disrespectful and would put her on the defensive. By saying that I don’t think that she is Catholic in the truest sense of the word I meant simply that she disagrees with the Church on some issues, which means she is not universal or “of one mind and one judgement”. Also, infallibility does not only pertain to ex cathedra pronouncements, the ordinary magisterium is infallible also. Teaching against birth control has been taught by the Church for centuries upon centuries, the teaching may not have been spoken ex cathedra by a pope, but it is indubitably infallible.

God bless
 
jfoges said:
I think you are wrong, your mother can be fully catholic and think those things. First of all, those teachings are not infallible teachings becuase they werent taught ex cathedra. see Lumen Gentium. Many catholics believe in an idea called Primacy of Conscience. This is the idea that one should accept the Pope’s non-ex cathedra teachings as a default, but if one’s conscience disagrees one should follow one’s conscience.
Click to expand...
Catholics must make every attempt to form a good conscience. Conscience does not trump TRUTH.
The “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” is available in most Countries and languages to improve our knowledge and insure a properly formed conscience.

" The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I have approved…and the publication of which I order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of Catholic Doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the Faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion.** "** - Pope John Paul II, with Imprimi Potest by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger.

CCC - " 1792
Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel,
bad example given by others,
enslavement to one’s passions,
assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience,
rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching,
lack of conversion and of charity:
these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct. "

CCC - " 1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility.
This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good,
or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.”
In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits. "

We all have a responsibility to read the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition”.
 
jfoges said:
I think you are wrong, your mother can be fully catholic and think those things. First of all, those teachings are not infallible teachings becuase they werent taught ex cathedra. see Lumen Gentium. Many catholics believe in an idea called Primacy of Conscience. This is the idea that one should accept the Pope’s non-ex cathedra teachings as a default, but if one’s conscience disagrees one should follow one’s conscience.
Click to expand...
Wait, what?

There is all kinds of error in your post. Those teachings ARE infallible teachings. Where did you learn otherwise? And no, you can’t usurp your conscience over the teachings of the Church. You must rightly form your conscience to the Church’s teachings. If your conscience is opposed to a teaching, your conscience is wrong.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top