Church is asking $500 for an annulment!

[farmfresh]

Good Lord! you guys are coming down very hard on this person! since a pp noticed that mappers religion is n/a, it could be that mapper is not catholic and is just very confused and concerned with all this?

I’m not catholic, so maybe i looked at the post from a different point of view. but, i thought back to when dh (who was raised catholic) and I were getting married. i was very upset and frustrated with all the ‘rules’ and lets face it, there are a LOT of them within the Catholic Church, and every bit of it was greek to me. (FYI, i was raised religious, but raised in a small town where protestant is way more the norm, so I knew NOTHING about Catholicism. dh and his family failed to fill me in on all of this ‘stuff’ until we were engaged) There were points during our engagement where i thought we werent going to be able to get married for little ‘technicalities’ here and there, if that is what you would call them. so, i can definately sympathize w/ mapper and can totally read the frustration in the original post.

also, IMO, it seems unfair that so many of you would assume they are planning a big wedding, with $500 alcohol tabs. Here in my area, people dont have elaborate weddings. receptions include cake and punch, maybe a bowl of mixed nuts. big weddings are not the norm everywhere.

I will agree that some of the questions that mapper asked may have led some assume that they are considering ‘cheating’ the church, but come on guys. they were merely questions, possibly asked b/c they are curious as to how the system works. if mapper is unfamiliar w/ how this stuff works, they could just be honest questions!

I would also like to add that if mapper has just recently been introduced to the catholic church, you guys are not setting a very good example of how great the catholic church (and its people) can be…

 

[mercygate]

Good Lord! you guys are coming down very hard on this person! since a pp noticed that mappers religion is n/a, it could be that mapper is not catholic and is just very confused and concerned with all this?

I’m not catholic, so maybe i looked at the post from a different point of view. but, i thought back to when dh (who was raised catholic) and I were getting married. i was very upset and frustrated with all the ‘rules’ and lets face it, there are a LOT of them within the Catholic Church, and every bit of it was greek to me. (FYI, i was raised religious, but raised in a small town where protestant is way more the norm, so I knew NOTHING about Catholicism. dh and his family failed to fill me in on all of this ‘stuff’ until we were engaged) There were points during our engagement where i thought we werent going to be able to get married for little ‘technicalities’ here and there, if that is what you would call them. so, i can definately sympathize w/ mapper and can totally read the frustration in the original post.

also, IMO, it seems unfair that so many of you would assume they are planning a big wedding, with $500 alcohol tabs. Here in my area, people dont have elaborate weddings. receptions include cake and punch, maybe a bowl of mixed nuts. big weddings are not the norm everywhere.

I will agree that some of the questions that mapper asked may have led some assume that they are considering ‘cheating’ the church, but come on guys. they were merely questions, possibly asked b/c they are curious as to how the system works. if mapper is unfamiliar w/ how this stuff works, they could just be honest questions!

I would also like to add that if mapper has just recently been introduced to the catholic church, you guys are not setting a very good example of how great the catholic church (and its people) can be…

Point well made – and taken.

I am one of those who did not check the OP’s religious affiliation. Heck. A lot of Catholics are clueless about the annulment process, much less Protestants, who probably think of it as “Catholic divorce.”

Sorry, mapper. My apologies. I’m having a large portion of well-chewed foot here.

I second the motion that your fiance, as a Catholic, is considered married until proven otherwise and should not be dating, much less aiming at a wedding date. But give him points for actually being willing to go through the annulment process.

If $500 is a problem for him – or, more accurately, if the IDEA of $500 is a problem for him – you might want to think hard about what kind of husband material this is. I know: none of my business.

 

[EmergencyOps]

Good Lord! you guys are coming down very hard on this person! since a pp noticed that mappers religion is n/a, it could be that mapper is not catholic and is just very confused and concerned with all this? I would also like to add that if mapper has just recently been introduced to the catholic church, you guys are not setting a very good example of how great the catholic church (and its people) can be…

I agree wholeheartedly. So much for showing Christ’s love. If you’re going to be critical, at least be tact about it. Just look at the path of destruction y’all have left behind:

What a bunch of whining you are doing.

…go to Confession and repent for your sinful, bitter attitude.

…but it really would be a shame to cheat a church for your own selfish reasons…

To the OP:
The nerve you have to expect the Church to foot the bill for your “fiance’s” annulment. I am sure your fiance is a big boy and should have took it like a man to take care of his annulment the right way. I’d be willing to bet that you will probably spend more on beer/wine for your wedding. I guess the inconvience of doing what is RIGHT is too much to bother with. PUT ON YOUR BIG GIRL PANTIES AND DEAL WITH IT! How selfish and immature of you~shame on you! You SHOULD WANT fiance to be clear to marry you properly instead of whinning about the cost. IMHO, they should charge way more considering how much work goes into it. Quit whining and pay up.

Hmmmmmm!!! … Guess we all have our opinions and priorities…

Mapper, you have my love and prayers. I can see how confusing it can be when they pressure you to donate an amount, but give you several choices. Please pray about it and I hope the Holy Spirit guides you to the answer. It is your annulment, your beliefs, and your life. Don’t let these Monday morning armchair quarterbacks get you down and make you feel worthless, just because you ask a few questions.

-Mark

 

[lizaanne]

Good Lord! you guys are coming down very hard on this person! since a pp noticed that mappers religion is n/a, it could be that mapper is not catholic and is just very confused and concerned with all this?

Then the appropriate way to ask to be educated is to ask for help in understanding. Not spewing childish frustration and accusations of a process you do not understand. I have no problem with the responses here - the OP asked for it by the tone and content of their post. I suspect that had she asked about the process and what it usually costs and what the cost is used for, etc., she would have gotten a VERY VERY different response.

Words mean things - and once people understand this and are responsible with their use of words, they will not run into problems like this.

~Liza

 

[danimay]

My fiance finally has the paperwork done for his annulment (been 1 year in the making!) and before the church sends it off to the archdiocese they ask for a $500 fee! I think that is ridiculous. We are not rich people and to pay that much only to still have it take 12-15 months to go through the system is crazy. They give you the option of paying all, some or none. What if we choose none? Does that mean that goes to the bottom of the pile and the people who paid $500 get top service? What if we pay the $500, does that mean they’ll push it through. We are very fed up with the process.

Gosh, if you think it’s a raw deal now…how are you gonna feel if he isn’t granted the annulment? Will he still marry you if his first marriage is declared valid? Seems an engagement, at this point, is putting the cart before the horse.

 

[briang72]

$500 fee for 12-15 months of investigative work by multiple people, reading and judging responses to lengthy questionnaires of testimony sounds quite reasonable to me. There were at least 8 people involved in my case considering it goes through the diocese and archdiocese.

8 people at $41.67 per month. Even if each person only spends an average of one hour per month on your case, you only paid them each $5 per hour.

Let me compare this to my divorce lawyer fees for an uncontested divorce.

Lawyer fee: $150 per hour X 9 1/2 hours of preparing and filing paperwork and a 30-minute court appearance = $1500.

You want to marry in the Catholic Church. It is the duty of the people in this process to decide whether you and your fiance are able to do so. Your fiance is still married in the eyes of the church, and these people have to decide whether that marriage is valid or not. You are not paying $500 for an annulment. You are paying $500 for the services of these people. So, while my divorce lawyer makes a considerable percentage of her mortgage payment from my business, my Tribunal members can take their families out for dinner one night.

If you want a marriage that is considered sacramental, and thus comes complete with the grace of God (which is why I hope you have decided to marry in the Church), $500 is well worth it.

 

[EmergencyOps]

…the OP asked for it by the tone and content of their post.

Ah, yes…and eye for an eye.

Words mean things - and once people understand this and are responsible with their use of words, they will not run into problems like this.

Good observance. It should be duly-noted by everyone.

 

[wifenmommy]

Then the appropriate way to ask to be educated is to ask for help in understanding. Not spewing childish frustration and accusations of a process you do not understand. I have no problem with the responses here - the OP asked for it by the tone and content of their post. I suspect that had she asked about the process and what it usually costs and what the cost is used for, etc., she would have gotten a VERY VERY different response.

Words mean things - and once people understand this and are responsible with their use of words, they will not run into problems like this.

~Liza

Great point. If the tone would have been more respectful and the attitude would have been one of gaining info, nobody would have gotten irked with the op. The whole tone of the post was one of childish whining.

 

[puzzleannie]

notice mapper has not come back, and wonder if she ever will, but was merely going to suggest a search on this topics on the liturgy and sacraments forum will yield several discussions with very helpful links and personal testimony from those who have undergone this process, which may help in understanding what is involved.

 

[wifenmommy]

Good Lord! you guys are coming down very hard on this person! since a pp noticed that mappers religion is n/a, it could be that mapper is not catholic and is just very confused and concerned with all this?

I’m not catholic, so maybe i looked at the post from a different point of view. but, i thought back to when dh (who was raised catholic) and I were getting married. i was very upset and frustrated with all the ‘rules’ and lets face it, there are a LOT of them within the Catholic Church, and every bit of it was greek to me. (FYI, i was raised religious, but raised in a small town where protestant is way more the norm, so I knew NOTHING about Catholicism. dh and his family failed to fill me in on all of this ‘stuff’ until we were engaged) There were points during our engagement where i thought we werent going to be able to get married for little ‘technicalities’ here and there, if that is what you would call them. so, i can definately sympathize w/ mapper and can totally read the frustration in the original post.

also, IMO, it seems unfair that so many of you would assume they are planning a big wedding, with $500 alcohol tabs. Here in my area, people dont have elaborate weddings. receptions include cake and punch, maybe a bowl of mixed nuts. big weddings are not the norm everywhere.

I will agree that some of the questions that mapper asked may have led some assume that they are considering ‘cheating’ the church, but come on guys. they were merely questions, possibly asked b/c they are curious as to how the system works. if mapper is unfamiliar w/ how this stuff works, they could just be honest questions!

I would also like to add that if mapper has just recently been introduced to the catholic church, you guys are not setting a very good example of how great the catholic church (and its people) can be…

ahhh yes…please let us continue to handle people with disrespectful attitudes toward the Catholic church with kid gloves. ohhh…dont offend those that disrespect the Church!! If the op would have been respectful, there would have been no problem. That is the issue with those who are not Catholic. They are quick to mock and condem our teachings while being ignorant of our faith. If the op had any questions, she should have spoken to the Priest directly. I hope and pray since the op is marrying a Catholic that she gain some respect for the faith.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Well shucks I messed that up the last few years.

It’s just that in reading the OP’s, Mapper’s, other posts, it is hard to untangle who is the bride-to-be (fiancee) and who is the groom-to-be (fiance)- Although I did manage to figure out that Mapper is/ is not Catholic, and this is probably confusing to her, um, him, to Mapper! Yes!!

According to this forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=186820, Mapper is Catholic, but HER fiance (groom-to-be) is not, and neither is the groom-to-be’s ex. So,Mapper’s fiance is doing it for her, but SHE is fed up because of the price, and because SHE doesn’t understand why if it was before a judge it doesn’t count.

 

[puzzleannie]

thanks I had the feeling this same poster had started another thread on the same topic, and never came back, I am beginning to have doubts on his/her sincerity.

the thread is also of value in a negative way because it hilites the ignorance and misinformation that is still floating around.

 

[whatevergirl]

thanks I had the feeling this same poster had started another thread on the same topic, and never came back, I am beginning to have doubts on his/her sincerity.

the thread is also of value in a negative way because it hilites the ignorance and misinformation that is still floating around.

Ignorance?

 

[wanner47]

This is what it says regarding the tribunal’s fees for my diocese:

Is there a fee for Tribunal services?
Operating a Tribunal is expensive. The Diocese of Fargo is committed to providing this ministry. On average it costs the diocese approximately $1300 per case. Salaries for auditors, advocates, defenders of the bond and judges must be paid. There are expenses for paper, telephones, computers and other supplies required in any office. To help the diocese we invite the Petitioner to pledge a contribution toward defraying some of the cost. We suggest that the petitioner pledge a contribution of $650. We do request a filing fee of $25 to accompany the libellus.

Recognizing the difficult financial circumstances of many people, the Tribunal attempts to make it as easy as possible to pay this pledge. Many persons pay monthly. If a person is unable to pledge this amount, we ask them to pledge what they can. Also if anyone can make a larger contribution we welcome that help to offset those who are unable to make the suggested contribution. Once we accept the preliminary questionnaire, we will send the petitioner a pledge form. On this form they show the total pledge and the amount they can pay each month. We will send a reminder each month.

Both the amount listed above and the amount you cited seem MORE than reasonable considering the amount of manhours, paperwork, etc. that goes into investigating a marriage.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Ignorance?

Because Mapper does not understand that two people who are not Catholic can have anybody perform their ceremony according to the laws of their juristiction. HOWEVER, even though they are not Catholic, the Church presumes the marriage of divorced non-Catholics is valid until proven otherwise, no matter who officiated at the ceremony; ie, non-Catholics are not bound by canon law to have their marriage officiated in front of a Catholic priest and two witnesses.

Thus, it is presumed to be a valid, natural marriage; and if both parties are baptized Christians, a sacramental marriage; until a tribunal says otherwise.

It’s a very hard thing to understand, and it is a form of ignorance in the better sense of the word.

 

[whatevergirl]

Because Mapper does not understand that two people who are not Catholic can have anybody perform their ceremony according to the laws of their juristiction. HOWEVER, even though they are not Catholic, the Church presumes the marriage of non-divorced Catholics is valid until proven otherwise, no matter who officiated at the ceremony; ie, non-Catholics are not bound by canon law to have their marriage officiated in front of a Catholic priest and two witnesses.

Thus, it is presumed to be a valid, natural marriage; and if both parties are baptized Christians, a natural marriage; until a tribunal says otherwise.

It’s a very hard thing to understand, and it is a form of ignorance in the better sense of the word.

Oh! Okay-I didn’t understand how that was being implied.
Thank you.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Oh! Okay-I didn’t understand how that was being implied.
Thank you.

I had to clear up some of my own thought process, make some corrections for “natural” the second time to “sacramental”, and “non-divorced Catholics” to “divorced non-Catholics” so I am not exactly what could be called crystal clear.

 

[whatevergirl]

I had to clear up some of my own thought process, make some corrections for “natural” the second time to “sacramental”, and “non-divorced Catholics” to “divorced non-Catholics” so I am not exactly what could be called crystal clear.

:hypno: i’m thoroughly confused thank you.

 

[puzzleannie]

Ignorance?

there are two posters who pitch in on every annulment thread with false info and claims and cause endless confusion, and most of these threads begins with statements like “everyone knows the Catholic church teaches X about divorce, marriage and annulment” with a completely false statement. yes ignorance. on the part of non-Catholics understandable. on the part of Catholics, reprehensible
I was refering to thread linked in post above mine

this ignorance commonly occurs in defining what is and is not a valid marriage.
there is one poster who continually claims, in spite of being corrected several times, that a marriage is not valid unless it is sacramental. False. a marriage between two baptizes persons who are otherwise free to marry and properly disposed is sacramental (Christ is present in that union) and valid. A marriage between two unbaptized persons, or one baptized + one unbaptized person, who are otherwise free to marry and properly disposed is a valid natural marriage.

underlying thesis is that the Catholic Church considers all marriages valid until proven otherwise, and a marriage cannot be called “invalid” until the circumstances surrounding it have been examined and investigated and judged in the canon law process. It is not relevant in the case of non-Catholics where the marriage took place or who witnessed it. What is relevant is their being free to marry and understanding and intending to contract and accept all that the marriage state demands and implies.

the other misunderstanding comes in grounds for annulment. a decree of nullity (a decision by a judge of canon law following due investigation) is issued by the tribunal when it is found the circumstances which pertained at the time of the marriage (NOT what transpired afterward) make it impossible for one or both parties to give full, informed, intentional consent to the contract.

the third issue is that Catholics, in addition to being bound by natural law on marriage as everyone is, are also further bound by canon law, as to who they may marry, where, and witnessed by whom.

the root of all this ignorance is lack of knowledge of the nature of sacraments in general and the sacrament of marriage, and of natural law that is the foundation of all truth about marriage, sex and family. yes, ignorance. as I say, understandable in a non-Catholic, unacceptable in a Catholic

I note OP has not been back, and did not respond to her earlier thread on the same topic, and doubt sincerity on the part of OP

 

[whatevergirl]

there are two posters who pitch in on every annulment thread with false info and claims and cause endless confusion, and most of these threads begins with statements like “everyone knows the Catholic church teaches X about divorce, marriage and annulment” with a completely false statement. yes ignorance. on the part of non-Catholics understandable. on the part of Catholics, reprehensible
I was refering to thread linked in post above mine

this ignorance commonly occurs in defining what is and is not a valid marriage.
there is one poster who continually claims, in spite of being corrected several times, that a marriage is not valid unless it is sacramental. False. a marriage between two baptizes persons who are otherwise free to marry and properly disposed is sacramental (Christ is present in that union) and valid. A marriage between two unbaptized persons, or one baptized + one unbaptized person, who are otherwise free to marry and properly disposed is a valid natural marriage.

underlying thesis is that the Catholic Church considers all marriages valid until proven otherwise, and a marriage cannot be called “invalid” until the circumstances surrounding it have been examined and investigated and judged in the canon law process. It is not relevant in the case of non-Catholics where the marriage took place or who witnessed it. What is relevant is their being free to marry and understanding and intending to contract and accept all that the marriage state demands and implies.

the other misunderstanding comes in grounds for annulment. a decree of nullity (a decision by a judge of canon law following due investigation) is issued by the tribunal when it is found the circumstances which pertained at the time of the marriage (NOT what transpired afterward) make it impossible for one or both parties to give full, informed, intentional consent to the contract.

the third issue is that Catholics, in addition to being bound by natural law on marriage as everyone is, are also further bound by canon law, as to who they may marry, where, and witnessed by whom.

the root of all this ignorance is lack of knowledge of the nature of sacraments in general and the sacrament of marriage, and of natural law that is the foundation of all truth about marriage, sex and family. yes, ignorance. as I say, understandable in a non-Catholic, unacceptable in a Catholic

I note OP has not been back, and did not respond to her earlier thread on the same topic, and doubt sincerity on the part of OP

I didn’t realize that–I don’t know much about annulments myself…I thought I was being lumped in with the ignorant group–although, it wouldn’t be far off. Thank you for clarifying what you meant! It’s strange being a cradle Catholic and just finding out about a lot of these things NOW!