Church is too wealthy?

[surfinpure]

I need help in answering the allegation that the Church, particularly the Pope and the Vatican, is hypocritical (even Pharisaical) in that it ammasses and hoards great wealth, and that the Pope lives “like a king.”

What in the world does one say to a thing like that?

 

[prv]

I need help in answering the allegation that the Church, particularly the Pope and the Vatican, is hypocritical (even Pharisaical) in that it ammasses and hoards great wealth, and that the Pope lives “like a king.”

What in the world does one say to a thing like that?

Last time I heard, the pope had simple furnishings for his residence.

 

[juno24]

I need help in answering the allegation that the Church, particularly the Pope and the Vatican, is hypocritical (even Pharisaical) in that it ammasses and hoards great wealth, and that the Pope lives “like a king.”

What in the world does one say to a thing like that?

What does one say to that? One asks for proof of the assertions. The other person made the claim-- he is required to back it up. That’s a pretty broad claim he has made, and now he expects you to refute it? No way. Tell him to offer specifics and then you can talk about it.

 

[mrs_abbott]

I don’t know what it’s like where you’re at but here it seems to be a battle of “who can build the biggest and most extravagant (sp?) church” these days.

 

[Damascus]

I would tell that person that the Church does have many things that are indeed valuable in terms of both wealth in the monetary sense and in terms of its priceless value in a spiritual sense. Why should anyone deny this or apologize for it? As far as Holy Father living like a King goes, I want to hear specific charges raised against him in this matter. He does accept and recieve many gifts of course. Is this wrong? I dont think so.
I think its funny how the “wealthy” Church gives more money away for charity than any other religious denomination. So, its all relative and it boils down to another attack against the Church that simply makes no point.

 

[surfinpure]

Last time I heard, the pope had simple furnishings for his residence.

Thanks for the reply. Do you happen to know of a reliable source for this information that I could use?

 

[surfinpure]

I would tell that person that the Church does have many things that are indeed valuable in terms of both wealth in the monetary sense and in terms of its priceless value in a spiritual sense. Why should anyone deny this or apologize for it? As far as Holy Father living like a King goes, I want to hear specific charges raised against him in this matter. He does accept and recieve many gifts of course. Is this wrong? I dont think so.
I think its funny how the “wealthy” Church gives more money away for charity than any other religious denomination. So, its all relative and it boils down to another attack against the Church that simply makes no point.

You make a good point. I wonder, perhaps there is a place I can find some sort of charity report that will tell me how much each Church gave each year in the United States alone.

 

[lizaanne]

If the asker is protestant, ask them what kind of car their pastor drives, is his name up on the sign in front of his church, what does his house look like, where do his kids go to school, and how does his wife dress?

Then tell him how our priests retire in poverty.

You do not have to make excuses for your Church. The accuser needs to provide proof of their argument. They will find none.

~Liza

 

[jc-servant]

This subject upsets me when it comes up, but I think some people just look for anything to tear our church down and to make it seem less legitimate so they don’t have to ask themselves if it is the true church founded by Christ. I think a lot of Protestants see the priceless art in Vatican City and our beautiful old buildings and assume that our church has “hoarded wealth.” They see the Pope in nice clothes and don’t realize that many things are just gifted to him.

Many critics don’t remember that ours is an ancient church that has been given things gradually over the course of 2000 years. The value of many things has increased due to time. For instance, if one of them volunteers to paint the mural behind the altar of their new building is that hording wealth? Now if one of our faithful just happens to be known as a famous painter many centuries after he painted one of our churches like the Sistine Chapel should we sell the building or the wall to get money for it?

I saw a letter to the editor that specifically mentioned my parish church’s permanent building that was finished in 2001 as a sign of ridiculous extravagance because it looked big and expensive to the writer. He said we should have spent the money on “the poor.” It is a pretty design, but it only seats a bit over 1,000 people so we have standing room only with 5 English and 2 Spanish masses for Sunday (including Sat. evening). It also was relatively inexpensive to build compared to hotels and many other current buildings going up in the area.

I suppose the complainer expected us to build a huge prefab warehouse and use metal folding chairs forever to avoid spending one penny that could have possibly gone to the poor. (We had already outgrown our simple multipurpose building and had used folding chairs for more than 10 years.) What he didn’t know is that the whole thing was built by pledges of parishioners many of whom made sacrifices to build a decent house for the Lord that will be sturdy and useful for many generations. For instance, I gave up eating out and other little luxuries to make my donations which were completely separate and above my stewardship donations. Past generations in our church built our beautiful old churches in the same manner by saving their pennies or donating their labor after slaving away all week at their jobs.

 

[Orionthehunter]

You make a good point. I wonder, perhaps there is a place I can find some sort of charity report that will tell me how much each Church gave each year in the United States alone.

No matter how much this will still be vulnerable to the charge it isn’t enough. What I would do is turn it around by focusing one the person making the charge. What evidence do you have that the Pope doesn’t live simply? Are you talking about the great works of art that were donated or commissioned on behalf of the Church as a gift? If I can give the fruits of my labor to the Church, why can’t an artist?

And regarding the Vatican, if you take out the grandeur of the St. Peter’s Basilica itself (which is a different issue justified in and of itself and discussed on another thread) and the museum, when you consider how many pilgrims, seminarians, and officials all doing legitimate work in the Vatican, it is really a pretty austere place.

Go to Washington DC, tour the Smithsonian, Capital, and walk around all the government buildings. Then go to the Vatican. It isn’t even close. Your accuser needs some perspective.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

… ammasses and hoards great wealth, and that the Pope lives “like a king.”

From the Last Will and Testament of John Paul II: “I leave no property behind me of which it is necessary to dispose.”

I don’t know of many non-Catholic pastors that could say the same.

I’m not sure of the finances of the entire Catholic Church. I suspect it is mainly in non-liquid assets, such as ancient buildings and artwork. Our local parish runs off of charitable donations of its members. The pastor makes a humble income, significantly less than other non-Catholic pastors in the area. The parish finances are used for operations and maintenance, and the remainder given to other charities.

Jesus was annointed with oil which was of great value. If the antagonist is complaining about the value of such expenses, he ought to reflect upon what Jesus said to a similar complaint:

Matt 26:7-10: "a woman came up to him with an alabaster flask of very expensive ointment, and she poured it on his head, as he sat at table. But when the disciples saw it, they were indignant, saying, “Why this waste? For this ointment might have been sold for a large sum, and given to the poor.” But Jesus, aware of this, said to them, “Why do you trouble the woman? For she has done a beautiful thing to me.”

Moreoever, during the past decade, the Catholic Fraternal organization, Knights of Columbus, has donated more than $1.208 billion to charity, and provided in excess of 574 million hours of volunteer service in support of charitable causes. This is just one example of giving nature of the Catholic Church.

 

[kage_ar]

In our area, it is the non-denoms and Baptists who are building the huge complexes, buildings with waterfalls and 3 oversized plasma screen monitors in the lobby (so you can watch the service while you sip your Starbucks from the coffee bar) under the atrium. These places REEK of excess without reverence.

I’ve yet to see a Catholic church with a plasma sceen (even a tiny one) or a coffee bar - andi I’ve been to the Vatican

 

[manualman]

I refer such people to Jesus own’ words.

Read the gospels where the woman spends a month’s (or was it a week) wages on expensive perfume and applies to Jesus feet with her hair. Some condemned her. Jesus applauded.

People learn to express their love for God in different stages. One is by giving what is valuable to them to God. Some Vatican treasures ARE amazingly priceless. Some were gathered by greed-driven clerics and popes over the centuries. But even these attest to the greatness of the faith of those who gave, even when they had little to give. (Though they sometimes reflect badly on those in the church who levied the taxes that paid for them).

I think OUR era makes the opposite mistake. Churches these days are often cheap feeling compared to the local movie theater. And I think that fact says a lot about our priorities.

 

[Maxply]

No. There’s a book on the Vatican, can’t recall the title, but the upshot is that Pius VI spent a ton of money, ended up pretty much eviscerating the treasury. . . American contributors have since then tried to develop sounder banking methods and controls.

And given the enormous windfall legal awards, certainly plenty more diocesessss in the US bound to fall BK.

 

[didymus]

Too wealthy compared to what?
The Vatican’s basic working capital is ~US$ 1 billion (or 1,000 million to English-speakers). It depends on the income from this to meet expenses.
See this Business Week article.

OTOH, Harvard University has an endowment of US$ 19B according to the Harvard Gazette. Does anyone complain that Harvard is “too weaothy”?

Many other charitable institutions are far richer than the Vatican. The Church as a whole (not just the Vatican) is rich only in the sense that, on paper, dioceses, religious orders, &c. own asets worth hundreds of billions of dollars – primarily the land on which schools, churches, hospitals, &c. are sitting (imagine what one could get for St. Patrick’s Cathedral, given Manhattan real-estate prices). Obviously all these things are money-losers to operate.

 

[Caesar]

Last time I heard, the pope had simple furnishings for his residence.

Benedict had his apartments redone in 2005 and they are supposed to be beautiful now (of course, a new library had to be constructed to house his 20,000 books), but even so they are still more more simple then some of the past Papal apartments.

 

[setitstraight]

I heard an interesting response to this claim…without even getting into numbers.

Ok, so the Church sells all of its property, assets, investments and art. They take the proceeds and help people all around the world for a few months until the money runs out.

or…

They keep things going the way they are and continue helping people for another 2000 years with the money they raise and control with prudent fiscal management.

 

[Maxply]

Of course, some of the most valuable assets would be impossible to sell. Who would buy the Sistine ceiling? etc.

Read an interesting story on the church’s wealth, which made this point. For a good bit of its property, the church really holds this stuff in trust for the world, the same way a museum might.

It would be interesting to flip the coin and ask, “how much would it take to pay people to do the world currently done in thousands of schools, hospitals, parishes, soup kitchens, etc., if these workers did this at market rate?”

Probably quite a few such places would fold the minute you tried this.

 

[Maxply]

I’ve got to toss this in. One Sunday afternoon I was out cycling, went past a Baptist church all a’singing, sounded great and enthusiastic, went past the church, saw parked in the back two matching Dodge Vipers, with the plates “Rev” and “Mrs. Rev”.

Pretty nice deal, if you like cars. I’m thinking each was $100K.

 

[Frankk]

I’m not sure that the answer to this is.

However, if you visit Rome and look at the wonder of the Sistine Chapel and the sheer opulence of St Paul’s and the Vatican City in general then I am left with one conundrum.

I wonder what Jesus would think if he saw it?