Church law vs Mosaic law

[fisherman_carl]

This is something I struggle with a bit lately. What is the difference in principle between the Mosaic Law that Gal 5:1 warns us of and Church laws like holy days of obligation? Paul warns us in Gal 5 not to make the Mosaic law as the source of our salvation because instead faith in Christ can only be the source of our salvation, which is where grace is, not in law. But doesnt this extend to any law? Can Church precepts be the source of our salvation any more than the Mosaic law? Christ is our only salvation.

“For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.” (Gal 5:1)

For instance is condemning people for missing holy days of obligation a legalistic bondage that takes away our freedom in Christ? Is it also not unmerciful, something Christ commanded us to be?

“You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.”
(Gal 5:4-6)

Granted I think going to Mass is a good thing and a source of grace. And I wouldnt go against Church teaching or counsel anyone to do so. I am just trying to understand it better. Are’nt we making it too legalistic?

 

[Della]

The Church’s laws are based on the 10 Commandments, which have never bee rescinded, thus we are to keep holy the Sabbath, which in our case is Sunday (another whole topic).

Christ gave the Church the authority and duty to govern and to decide matters of faith and morals. If had intended that we all just follow him however we see fit he wouldn’t have done that. People have been interpreting Scripture for themselves over the last 500+ years resulting in, not one Church as Christ desired, but a splittered body of believers all doing their own thing–not at all what Jesus had in mind.

The Church does not lay onerous burdens on people by calling us to celebrate the highest form of prayer–the Mass, to celebrate special occasions/persons in the Christian life. Would you consider it a burden to be invited to a personal visit with, say, the president of the USA or the Queen of England? You’d be honored. How much more should we be honored to attend the Mass in celebration of the King of kings?

 

[fisherman_carl]

The Church’s laws are based on the 10 Commandments, which have never bee rescinded, thus we are to keep holy the Sabbath, which in our case is Sunday (another whole topic).

Ok. But we don’t really keep the Sabbath law anymore do we? (catholic.com/tracts/sabbath-or-sunday )The Sabbath is on Saturday. We keep the Lord’s day. - “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.” (Col 2:16). We keep the moral laws but how is Sunday obligation a moral law?

Christ gave the Church the authority and duty to govern and to decide matters of faith and morals. If had intended that we all just follow him however we see fit he wouldn’t have done that. People have been interpreting Scripture for themselves over the last 500+ years resulting in, not one Church as Christ desired, but a splittered body of believers all doing their own thing–not at all what Jesus had in mind.

Ok that is a good argument against sola scriptura but does not address my question

The Church does not lay onerous burdens on people by calling us to celebrate the highest form of prayer–the Mass, to celebrate special occasions/persons in the Christian life. Would you consider it a burden to be invited to a personal visit with, say, the president of the USA or the Queen of England? You’d be honored. How much more should we be honored to attend the Mass in celebration of the King of kings?

Ok, that is a good reason to attend Mass but does not address why there is such condemnation for not attending Mass.

 

[Della]

Originally Posted by Della
The Church’s laws are based on the 10 Commandments, which have never bee rescinded, thus we are to keep holy the Sabbath, which in our case is Sunday (another whole topic).

Ok. But we don’t really keep the Sabbath law anymore do we? (catholic.com/tracts/sabbath-or-sunday )The Sabbath is on Saturday. We keep the Lord’s day. - “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.” (Col 2:16). We keep the moral laws but how is Sunday obligation a moral law?

The moral obligation to keep holy the Sabbath is not being negated in this passage. Nor has it been cancelled by moving the obligation to Sunday. The obligation still exists, but the Church, by the authority given to it by Christ, move the obligation to celebrate Christ’s resurrection. Only the day was changed, not the obligation. St. Paul was talking about the Judaizer (men who claimed that all the ceremonial laws had to be kept by the Gentile converts) confusing converts with their claims. He was not saying that we have no obligation to keep the Sabbath Day holy.

Christ gave the Church the authority and duty to govern and to decide matters of faith and morals. If had intended that we all just follow him however we see fit he wouldn’t have done that. People have been interpreting Scripture for themselves over the last 500+ years resulting in, not one Church as Christ desired, but a splittered body of believers all doing their own thing–not at all what Jesus had in mind.

Ok that is a good argument against sola scriptura but does not address my question

It addresses it because you are doing it, you see. By picking Bible verses out of context (historically, scripturally, and interpretatively) you are being a Solo Scripturist. It’s as if all of a sudden you discovered verses the Church missed or doesn’t want to hold to, you see. I don’t think that’s your intention, don’t get me wrong, but it seems that way. I was reminding all who are reading this that that way leads to error and divisions.

The Church does not lay onerous burdens on people by calling us to celebrate the highest form of prayer–the Mass, to celebrate special occasions/persons in the Christian life. Would you consider it a burden to be invited to a personal visit with, say, the president of the USA or the Queen of England? You’d be honored. How much more should we be honored to attend the Mass in celebration of the King of kings?

Ok, that is a good reason to attend Mass but does not address why there is such condemnation for not attending Mass.

We are under obedience to those whom God has put over us. We in the West have lost this concept because we’ve become so individualistic. But Christ established his Church on his Apostles whom he gave the authority to decide these matters. Look at the First Council of Jerusalem in the Book of Acts. What is happening there? The Church’s leaders–it’s bishops are deciding matters and ruling on them. They sent letters to all the Christians telling them their decisions and that they were to obey them. So, this has been what Christ intended and how he keeps us faithful to his teachings. He imparts saving grace to us–through his Church and the Sacraments. We can never receive too much grace. The Church, by making holy days of obligation mandatory, gives us more opportunities to receive God’s grace in the Sacrament of the Altar. We should see this as a positive thing and the correct usage of authority by those to whom God gave it.

 

[fisherman_carl]

In Gal 5:1 Paul speaks of a yoke of slavery found in the Mosaic law because it takes us away from Christ. If we are relying on the Mosaic law for salvation then we are denying the necessity of Christ’s sacrifice to redeem us from our sins.

Does the Church laws take us away from Christ or bring us more fully to Christ? If they take us away from Christ then they rob us of the freedom found in Christ. However, if they bring us more fully into Christ then in theory they should give us freedom in Christ.

Does going to Mass on Sunday bring us freedom in Christ or bondage? If sin is bondage then perhaps going to Mass helps free us from that sin and the resulting bondage. So in that sense going to Mass can make us ‘freer’ than not. If we are not going to Mass then perhaps we are doing something else that takes its place. In this sense if we are not going to Mass then perhaps it is because we have an idol in our hearts. We are not putting God first in our life and there is something else that is taking God’s place. If God was first in our heart and we understood the significance of going to Mass as pleasing to God then we would naturally want to go.

So in this sense it would not just be about obeying a bunch of laws but instead putting God first in your heart.

 

[fisherman_carl]

Originally Posted by Della
The moral obligation to keep holy the Sabbath is not being negated in this passage…

Exactly what is the moral obligation in keeping the Sabbath? My guess would be that it relates to putting God first in your heart.

It addresses it because you are doing it, you see. By picking Bible verses out of context (historically, scripturally, and interpretatively) you are being a Solo Scripturist. It’s as if all of a sudden you discovered verses the Church missed or doesn’t want to hold to, you see. I don’t think that’s your intention, don’t get me wrong, but it seems that way. I was reminding all who are reading this that that way leads to error and divisions.

No. I am not acting as a Protestant solo scripturist. I am simply asking a question and am not looking to get attacked. I am not trying to prove anyone wrong. I am not saying my interpretation is correct based on the bible alone. Perhaps you have been arguing with Protestants too long. I am a Catholic just trying to understand my faith better. Can I not ask as question without being labeled or accused of something?

We are under obedience to those whom God has put over us.

There is a difference between obedience and blind obedience. The Church also talks about following your conscience.

 

[fisherman_carl]

We can never receive too much grace. The Church, by making holy days of obligation mandatory, gives us more opportunities to receive God’s grace in the Sacrament of the Altar. We should see this as a positive thing and the correct usage of authority by those to whom God gave it.

I agree with this. However, if it is just about obeying external precepts but their is nothing that addresses the heart then it is pointless. For Jesus says from the heart is what matters. This was one of the points of his sermon on the Mount. He criticized the Pharisees for just observing external precepts when their hearts were far from God. I think the point of going to Mass on Sunday is more about putting God first in your heart than about obeying precepts. If God is first in your heart than you will choose to go to Mass. Jesus said, ‘if you love me you will obey my commands.’

Because if its just about the Church’s authority then it is simply about dominance. But, if it is about loving and serving the Lord then it is about Christ. When some of Christ’s disciples left him because they could not accept his teaching on the Eucharist in John 6 he did not condemn them or threaten them. He was not dominating them. Instead he turned to the 12 and asked if they wanted to leave also. And the 12 said where else can we go, you have the words of eternal life.

 

[fisherman_carl]

Sunday obligation, for some of us, may also be a matter of having started something with pure motives but then later it became a thing of bondage. For instance we have started going to church on Sunday because we loved the Lord and wanted to celebrate the Mass and the Resurrection with Him. But, then after awhile it ended up becoming something of drudgery and obligation where we feel we have to go out of fear of punishment.

Perhaps, in this case Jesus would say to us return to your first love as he said to to the church of Ephesus in Rev 2:4-5.

“And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.”
(Mark 2:27)

 

[Della]

The moral obligation to keep holy the Sabbath is not being negated in this passage…

Exactly what is the moral obligation in keeping the Sabbath? My guess would be that it relates to putting God first in your heart.

It addresses it because you are doing it, you see. By picking Bible verses out of context (historically, scripturally, and interpretatively) you are being a Solo Scripturist. It’s as if all of a sudden you discovered verses the Church missed or doesn’t want to hold to, you see. I don’t think that’s your intention, don’t get me wrong, but it seems that way. I was reminding all who are reading this that that way leads to error and divisions.

No. I am not acting as a Protestant solo scripturist. I am simply asking a question and am not looking to get attacked. I am not trying to prove anyone wrong. I am not saying my interpretation is correct based on the bible alone. Perhaps you have been arguing with Protestants too long. I am a Catholic just trying to understand my faith better. Can I not ask as question without being labeled or accused of something?

I didn’t attack you and went out of my way to state that I believed trying to be solo scripture was not your intention. We need to fully read each other’s responses or we’ll just end up talking past one other or looking for a fight, which I have no intentions of doing.

We are under obedience to those whom God has put over us.

There is a difference between obedience and blind obedience. The Church also talks about following your conscience

.

And the Church allows for this by teaching that if you cannot attend a Mass obligation for good cause you have no obligation to attend and therefore no sin. We form our consciences by obeying all the Church teaches, which means using our prudential judgment. Prudential judgment is not, however an excuse to avoid doing what we know we ought to do. I’m sure you’re aware of that but for lurkers and seekers I think it needs to be made clear.

 

[Della]

We can never receive too much grace. The Church, by making holy days of obligation mandatory, gives us more opportunities to receive God’s grace in the Sacrament of the Altar. We should see this as a positive thing and the correct usage of authority by those to whom God gave it.

I agree with this. However, if it is just about obeying external precepts but their is nothing that addresses the heart then it is pointless. For Jesus says from the heart is what matters. This was one of the points of his sermon on the Mount. He criticized the Pharisees for just observing external precepts when their hearts were far from God. I think the point of going to Mass on Sunday is more about putting God first in your heart than about obeying precepts. If God is first in your heart than you will choose to go to Mass. Jesus said, ‘if you love me you will obey my commands.’

Of course, but we all fail in this to one degree or another because we are fallen creatures not glorified saints. We cannot know why anyone attends Mass except ourselves. It seems to me that it is better for people to be at Mass, even if they only go out of obligation, than to miss and start making lame excuses why they need not attend and let themselves slip into sin and disobedience to God.

Because if its just about the Church’s authority then it is simply about dominance. But, if it is about loving and serving the Lord then it is about Christ. When some of Christ’s disciples left him because they could not accept his teaching on the Eucharist in John 6 he did not condemn them or threaten them. He was not dominating them. Instead he turned to the 12 and asked if they wanted to leave also. And the 12 said where else can we go, you have the words of eternal life.

No one is “dominating” anyone. The Church must teach the truth even if people don’t want to hear it. That’s the lesson of the disciples who walked away. They could have stayed out of their own free will, but choose not to. But there was a consequence to pay. They didn’t go away and lead lives in union with Christ–they returned to their former lives as if Christ had never been a part of it. How was that right and good for them? Of course, it wasn’'t. And the Church is telling us the same thing–we need to do what God through his Church tells us to do in order to have our hearts and minds on Christ. You are raising an ariticial barrier that simply doesn’t exist. No one puts a gun to a Catholic’s back and forces them to attend Mass, but the Church tells us that if we don’t there will be consquences. Its the the same thing as saying that if you speed and drive off a cliff you could be seriously hurt or kill. Should we throw out the rules of the road because they impede our freedom to drive however we please no matter who we might hurt or kill? Rules are there to help and guide us not hinder us. The Church asks very little of us for an eternal reward. Why would anyone balk at it?

 

[Della]

Sunday obligation, for some of us, may also be a matter of having started something with pure motives but then later it became a thing of bondage. For instance we have started going to church on Sunday because we loved the Lord and wanted to celebrate the Mass and the Resurrection with Him. But, then after awhile it ended up becoming something of drudgery and obligation where we feel we have to go out of fear of punishment.

Perhaps, in this case Jesus would say to us return to your first love as he said to to the church of Ephesus in Rev 2:4-5.

“And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.”
(Mark 2:27)

And who is to judge who is attending for the right reasons? See my previous reply about this.

When we were children we learned many things by rote so that we would retain them. Sure, we didn’t fully understand all that we learned, but it was there in our heads when we needed it later, when we could understand. Obeying Christ in his Church is very much the same. We do what God wants us to do because he wants us to do it. Jesus said that those who love him obey his commands, not just love him in their hearts, as if that’s enough. We humans have to do things in order to get anything out of them, not just want to have the right disposition of heart. It’s right and good to have an rightly ordered disposition, but that comes through obedience and practicing it. The Church gives us ample opportunities to do that by making somethings mandatory–like a mother demanding her child eat all his veggies. And we are, after all, but children in God’s eyes who don’t understand all he does but we certainly can obey him, because that’s what he asks of us.

 

[fisherman_carl]

No one is “dominating” anyone. The Church must teach the truth even if people don’t want to hear it.

If the Church is telling you to do something because it says so and if you don’t then you are condemned that is dominating. I’m right you’re wrong mentality and you better do what I say or else. But, I don’t believe that is what the Church is doing. That is what some Catholics do when they present the churches teaching. But, there is a deeper meaning for why we go to Church than just because the Church says so. There has to be something that speaks to the heart, not just the head. You can’t dominate your heart with your head. The heart is moved by love.

It can be about dominating if the way that teaching is presented is done in a dominating kind of way. Believe this doctrine or else kind of way. Go to church or you are condemned. I am right, you are wrong. It can make God look like some kind of a dominating super cop who is going to send people to hell for missing one Mass. How can we have a loving relationship with someone who is constantly threatening to damn us if we fail to perform?

 

[fisherman_carl]

When we were children we learned many things by rote so that we would retain them. Sure, we didn’t fully understand all that we learned, but it was there in our heads when we needed it later, when we could understand. Obeying Christ in his Church is very much the same. We do what God wants us to do because he wants us to do it. Jesus said that those who love him obey his commands, not just love him in their hearts, as if that’s enough. We humans have to do things in order to get anything out of them, not just want to have the right disposition of heart. It’s right and good to have an rightly ordered disposition, but that comes through obedience and practicing it. The Church gives us ample opportunities to do that by making somethings mandatory–like a mother demanding her child eat all his veggies. And we are, after all, but children in God’s eyes who don’t understand all he does but we certainly can obey him, because that’s what he asks of us.

I agree with a lot of what you say here. That’s fine if you want to do it that way if that’s what motivates you. Jesus wants us to have a relationship with him that involves more than just doing stuff for him. When Jesus went to Mary and Martha’s place Martha was busy running around trying to get things ready for supper while Mary was at the feet of Jesus. Martha became angry because Mary wasn’t helping her get ready. Jesus told her that only one thing is required and Mary had chosen the better part.

“Jesus said that those who love him obey his commands, not just love him in their hearts, as if that’s enough.”

I think it is more important to love Jesus from your heart then it is to do a bunch of stuff for him (see Mt 7:21 -23). The thief on the cross did nothing besides loving Jesus in his heart. It is love that motivates us to act, not the other way around. We don’t get love from doing a bunch of stuff. Or from fear of punishment for that matter. John says we love because God first loved us. And he says that perfect love casts out all fear because fear has to do with punishment (1 Jn 4:18). Jesus said if we love him we will obey his commands. So we don’t worry about whether loving him in our hearts is enough. Rather love should be what drives us to obey him. If we don’t obey him then maybe we have an idol in our heart that is blocking us from completely loving him the way we should. And we need to pray about that and ask Him to show us what that is and repent of it and ask for God’s help and for forgiveness.

 

[fisherman_carl]

It addresses it because you are doing it, you see. By picking Bible verses out of context (historically, scripturally, and interpretatively) you are being a Solo Scripturist. It’s as if all of a sudden you discovered verses the Church missed or doesn’t want to hold to, you see. I don’t think that’s your intention, don’t get me wrong, but it seems that way. I was reminding all who are reading this that that way leads to error and divisions.

Actually, I am not picking bible verses out of context. That may be your opinion. Sola Scriptura is not quoting the bible. Sola Scriptura is saying the bible alone has authority. That is not what I am doing. But, the bible IS an authority so we need to use it. That IS what I am doing.

I think apologetics has its place but not everything is about apologetics. We need more than apologetics. We need more than just reasoned theology. We need a relationship with Jesus.

 

[Della]

I fail to see how obeying the legitimate decisions of the Church in any way equals God being an angry cop bent on damning us to hell for the least infraction. This is all in your head, dear friend. Consequences are results that occur because of cause and effect not because anyone is dominating anyone else. The Church knows about cause and effect quite well having dealt with humans and human societies since 33 AD.

And Martha was NOT following Christ’s commands when she busied herself with minor issues instead of sitting at his feet like Mary. She was worrying and fussing. Christ’s commands do not make us do that. Just the opposite. Jesus told us that his burden was easy and light. What the Church asks us to do is a gift to us, not a burden. If you have issues with obeying the Church, you need to take it up with Christ himself because he founded the Church, gave it authority, and expects us to be obedient to it according to the ordinary laws of the Church.

This is my final word on the subject because I can’t make it any clearer. Others may wish to carrying on the discussion. I have other things I need to do. You may also want to have a good talk with your priest about your issues. God bless you.

 

[fisherman_carl]

I fail to see how obeying the legitimate decisions of the Church in any way equals God being an angry cop bent on damning us to hell for the least infraction. This is all in your head, dear friend. Consequences are results that occur because of cause and effect not because anyone is dominating anyone else. The Church knows about cause and effect quite well having dealt with humans and human societies since 33 AD.

And Martha was NOT following Christ’s commands when she busied herself with minor issues instead of sitting at his feet like Mary. She was worrying and fussing. Christ’s commands do not make us do that. Just the opposite. Jesus told us that his burden was easy and light. What the Church asks us to do is a gift to us, not a burden. If you have issues with obeying the Church, you need to take it up with Christ himself because he founded the Church, gave it authority, and expects us to be obedient to it according to the ordinary laws of the Church.

This is my final word on the subject because I can’t make it any clearer. Others may wish to carrying on the discussion. I have other things I need to do. You may also want to have a good talk with your priest about your issues. God bless you.

Good. I never asked u to comment on every little thing i said anyway. I wasnt talking to you. Cheers.

 

[fisherman_carl]

Good. I never asked u to comment on every little thing i said anyway. I wasnt talking to you. Cheers.

I prefer to talk with people who actually listen to what i have to say, To people who come alongside in love rather than in opposition to everything i say. I stated that i agreed with a number of things u said. What did u agree with what i said?

 

[fisherman_carl]

I prefer to talk with people who actually listen to what i have to say, To people who come alongside in love rather than in opposition to everything i say. I stated that i agreed with a number of things u said. What did u agree with what i said?

Whoops. Sorry for my little rant here. As u can see I was frustrated. I dont want to be angry with you or you with me. The bible says dont let the sun go down on your anger. You were probably just trying to help me. I was frustrated because it didnt seem like u listned to me but opposed everything i said. But Im not onterested in a debate since i think all debats do is polarize people to opposite sides. Jesus loves you and God bless. Im praying for u.

 

[fisherman_carl]

Whoops. Sorry for my little rant here. As u can see I was frustrated. I dont want to be angry with you or you with me. The bible says dont let the sun go down on your anger. You were probably just trying to help me. I was frustrated because it didnt seem like u listned to me but opposed everything i said. But Im not onterested in a debate since i think all debats do is polarize people to opposite sides. Jesus loves you and God bless. Im praying for u.

As a token of thanks for answering my question I want to offer u an all expense trip to Las Vegas! No just kidding! But seriously, i was given some cds on how to hear God’s voice that I am benefitting from. I am still working on it and going through the material. I would reccomend it to anyone. You can download the materials here - cwgministries.org/

Mark Virkler is the instructor. He is an Evangelical. If that concerns you I understand. I was a little apprehensive at first but it is ok. If u listen to him u find out he is not anti-catholic. He used to be but not since he attended a Catholic Charismatic retreat. He spent 11 years as a Protestant trying to hear God’s voice but could not. It wasnt until he attended a retreat given by 2 Jesuits that he first learned the first 2 keys to hearing God’s voice.

The course is not theology. It instruction on hearing God’s voice through journaling, dreams, images and pictures, and visions. He says God is always speaking to us. We just need to quiet our minds, focus on Jesus, tune to flow and write. This can be difficult for left brained people like me to do but it is well worth the time to learn it. We dont want to miss out on what God wants to say to us.

 

[wanabesaint]

Ok, take breath.

in the beatitudes, it says that the meek shall inherite the earth… and to that.
People should stop one day a week, and on that day do no work, and to that they should make it a point to stop and give thanks to God.

For, if you dont, you make your means to be, your work, when it should be your means should be, God.
to that, it is a sin if your work comes to be your means, and this come tobe more clear in the sense that many farmerd AND FISHED at one time, and if they couldnt stop their labor, they were then definitely putting the land OR WATER before God, it was their means.

to go to Church, is to listen directly to God, to go to Eucharist, is to directly take God to yourself. and, in faith, God is your means, as it should be.
Its not about you, its that you go, as an exmaple for others follow you

If your not a example to follow, well, face it, your a failure.

in the old it was on one day, in the new covenant it was changed, for Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday, and that changed alot, well more than alot, it was the beginnig of the New Covenant we follow, if you want to follow the old one, well that is a Jewish thing. they missed the boat.

HEY, are you sure you dont want to give a free vaction to las vegas away??? you can call it a good deed…