Church made up of "all believers regardless of denomination?"

[Harpazo]

protestants separate catholic and “roman catholic” (the same way the orthodox do). the catholic church is the one church made up of all believers. the roman catholic church is one branch of that, centered in rome and headed up by the pope.

we would read this creed and say, “of course, that is what the catholic (meaning one or universal) church teaches. and, as i am a member of the catholic church, i believe it.”

you are assuming that whenever some one says catholic they mean roman catholic.

This was written by bengal_fan in another post and I wanted to discuss this further.

How does this view hold up against history and Scripture & Tradition? Many Fathers and Doctors of the Church, both East and West, taught nothing close to this, and in fact taught contrary to this belief. It was not taught for at least 1500 (maybe more) since Our Lord ascended to Heaven.

So for the Protestants that profess this, why? This sounds like a tradition of men to me.

How can such a thing be taken seriously with each denomination believing something different from the next? I know the over-played response of “well, we all believe in the essentials right?”

Nay! No two denominations can completely agree on what the essentials actually are, can they? I can’t seem to find in Protestant history where these essentials were defined, or more importantly in Sacred Scripture, where most, if not all Protestants go for the basis of their faith.

Alaha minokhoun
Andrew

 

[Claire_from_DE]

 

[Ilroy]

I would have to say his whole premis starts out wrong. This from what you quoted from him:
“protestants separate catholic and “roman catholic” (the same way the orthodox do). the catholic church is the one church made up of all believers. the roman catholic church is one branch of that, centered in rome and headed up by the pope.”

In reality, the Catholic Church is the one Church given to us by Christ with His vicar being the Bishop of Rome and otherwise known as the Pope. the term Roman Catholic was originally started by the church of England and was a put down. Now it is commonly used by Catholics to simply differentiate the Roman or Latin Rite of the Catholic Church from the various other Rites in The Church who are all under the leadership of Christ’s vicar, the Pope.

To claim that all christian denominations are part of the Catholic Church is partly right and partly wrong. If they mean they are fully Catholic then they are wrong. The way it is partly right, is that all who are validly baptised are in an imperfect union with the Catholic Church.

 

[Genesis315]

The word Catholic was originally used to denote the universal Church rather than particular local Churches. But, it never included heretical Churches. When St. Paul says that those who bring a different Gospel are anathema, he means they are cast out fo the assembly of believers.

Thus, the Church maintains a unity of faith. Plus, the entire flock of Christ was entrusted to Peter, not just a portion.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

…

How can such a thing be taken seriously with each denomination believing something different from the next? I know the over-played response of “well, we all believe in the essentials right?”

…
I can’t seem to find in Protestant history where these essentials were defined, or more importantly in Sacred Scripture, where most, if not all Protestants go for the basis of their faith.

This, and the “only within the Church (Catholic) is there salvation” question, are very popular questions today, and for the last few days, aren’t they?

I wonder what kicked that into high gear?

 

[Harpazo]

The word Catholic was originally used to denote the universal Church rather than particular local Churches. But, it never included heretical Churches. When St. Paul says that those who bring a different Gospel are anathema, he means they are cast out fo the assembly of believers.

Thus, the Church maintains a unity of faith. Plus, the entire flock of Christ was entrusted to Peter, not just a portion.

Exactly! St. Augustine said something along those same lines about how all the heretics want to be called Catholic, but if you ask them to point you to the Catholic Church, they will point not to their own church but to the Catholic Church.

No Protestants have anything to say about this?

Alaha minokhoun
Andrew

 

[deacon_d]

Exactly! St. Augustine said something along those same lines about how all the heretics want to be called Catholic, but if you ask them to point you to the Catholic Church, they will point not to their own church but to the Catholic Church.

No Protestants have anything to say about this?

Alaha minokhoun
Andrew

Protestants see themselves as Catholic as well. They just don’t say Roman Catholic unless they think you mean Roman Catholic. If we define the Catholic church as all believers IN Christ then that’s the one true Church. By capitalizing the IN I’m stressing those that accept Jesus as well. Not just admit to it.

 

[Harpazo]

Protestants see themselves as Catholic as well. They just don’t say Roman Catholic unless they think you mean Roman Catholic. If we define the Catholic church as all believers IN Christ then that’s the one true Church. By capitalizing the IN I’m stressing those that accept Jesus as well. Not just admit to it.

Thank you for your post

Where is this belief in Catholic history? I can’t find it coming on the scene of Catholic history or Protestant history until some of John Wesley’s later writings, making this claim. However, it may have been made in the early 1600s at the earliest.

I don’t consider myself Roman Catholic. I’m Maronite (almost. still have to have both Bishops of both Churches approve) That Catholic Church is a Communion of Churches made up of 6 Traditions:

Latin (Roman Church)
Constantinopolitan [Byzantine] (Russian Catholic, Ukrainian Greek Catholic, Melkite Greek Catholics, Ruthenian Catholic, etc)
Antiochene (Maronite Catholic, Syro-Malankara Catholic, Syriac Catholic)
Chaldean (Chaldean Catholics, Syro-Malabar Catholics)
Armenian (Armenian Catholics)
Alexandrian (Coptic Catholics, Ethiopian Catholics)

The Roman Church is the largest Church of this Communion, but there are Churches in the other Traditions as well.

Your post doesn’t answer my question though. Where’s the Scriptural proof and writings of the Fathers to make this claim hold?

It doesn’t make much logical sense to me, and it never did when I was a Protestant. One Protestant group says abortion is abhorrently evil, another says it’s alright and if you want to do it, it’s your body.

Another will say it’s fine if homosexuals want to marry, and yet another will say homosexuality is a disorder.

One group will claim that you can only worship God on Saturdays, and another will say, it doesn’t matter when you worship him and you don’t even have to go to a faith community.

And still another will say there are 7 Sacraments, or one group will say there are only 2 sacraments, but another will say there aren’t any at all.

One group will say that baptism is necessary for Salvation, another will say it doesn’t matter if you’re baptized at all.

You see what I’m talking about? I could go on forever with differences in the varying sects of Protestants, and it will still be divided. No two groups in the Protestant factions can decide on what the essential beliefs for a Christian are.

Alaha minokhoun
Andrew

 

[deacon_d]

Thank you for your post

Where is this belief in Catholic history? I can’t find it coming on the scene of Catholic history or Protestant history until some of John Wesley’s later writings, making this claim. However, it may have been made in the early 1600s at the earliest.

I don’t consider myself Roman Catholic. I’m Maronite (almost. still have to have both Bishops of both Churches approve) That Catholic Church is a Communion of Churches made up of 6 Traditions

The Roman Church is the largest Church of this Communion, but there are Churches in the other Traditions as well.

Your post doesn’t answer my question though. Where’s the Scriptural proof and writings of the Fathers to make this claim hold?

Are you asking what’s the scriptural proof that all believers in Christ are Catholic??

It doesn’t make much logical sense to me, and it never did when I was a Protestant. One Protestant group says abortion is abhorrently evil, another says it’s alright and if you want to do it, it’s your body.

What Protestant group condones abortion??

Another will say it’s fine if homosexuals want to marry, and yet another will say homosexuality is a disorder.

What I have seen is that Protestants will say if homosexuals want to marry they can. But I don’t believe they will actually marry 2 homosexuals. I could be wrong though I just don’t know of any that would perform the service. But just because they (Protestants) say they can marry doesn’t mean they (Protestants) think it’s right.

One group will claim that you can only worship God on Saturdays, and another will say, it doesn’t matter when you worship him and you don’t even have to go to a faith community.

And still another will say there are 7 Sacraments, or one group will say there are only 2 sacraments, but another will say there aren’t any at all.

One group will say that baptism is necessary for Salvation, another will say it doesn’t matter if you’re baptized at all.

You see what I’m talking about? I could go on forever with differences in the varying sects of Protestants, and it will still be divided. No two groups in the Protestant factions can decide on what the essential beliefs for a Christian are.

Alaha minokhoun
Andrew

It is an interesting dilemma. I think what we have today are denominations who make very loose interpretations of the Bible and unfortunately just like there is a market for Nike, Adidas, Puma etc., there will always be a market for new religious denominations that claim to have all the right answers. People will try to find what best suits them.

The question you have to answer is if that brings you to Christ then why the problem??

Personal example. I grew up in the Roman Catholic church for a long long time. I fell away years ago for various reasons. After getting married my wife and I spent time searching for a place to go to church. We prayed diligently to GOD to lead us where we would grow spiritually. He led us to a non-denominational church. For me personally I’ve gotten more out of this church than my whole life within the Roman Catholic church. I think GOD knows where we individually can flourish and I don’t think he looks at the label. Of course this is just my opinion. I’ve seen people become more fulfilled within the Roman Catholic church. I’ve also seen many many Roman Catholics become more fulfilled outside the Roman Catholic church.

Not sure if I helped or just confused more.

 

[Chellow]

Protestants see themselves as Catholic as well. They just don’t say Roman Catholic unless they think you mean Roman Catholic. If we define the Catholic church as all believers IN Christ then that’s the one true Church. By capitalizing the IN I’m stressing those that accept Jesus as well. Not just admit to it.

See the problem with your point is that Mt 18:17 tells us that if we have a problem with one another to go to the Church, what Church, the Church of believers. What believers the two others I was suppose go to before the Church.

 

[SyCarl]

Thank you for your post

Where is this belief in Catholic history? I can’t find it coming on the scene of Catholic history or Protestant history until some of John Wesley’s later writings, making this claim. However, it may have been made in the early 1600s at the earliest.

I don’t consider myself Roman Catholic. I’m Maronite (almost. still have to have both Bishops of both Churches approve) That Catholic Church is a Communion of Churches made up of 6 Traditions:

The Roman Church is the largest Church of this Communion, but there are Churches in the other Traditions as well.

Your post doesn’t answer my question though. Where’s the Scriptural proof and writings of the Fathers to make this claim hold?

It doesn’t make much logical sense to me, and it never did when I was a Protestant. One Protestant group says abortion is abhorrently evil, another says it’s alright and if you want to do it, it’s your body.

Another will say it’s fine if homosexuals want to marry, and yet another will say homosexuality is a disorder.

One group will claim that you can only worship God on Saturdays, and another will say, it doesn’t matter when you worship him and you don’t even have to go to a faith community.

And still another will say there are 7 Sacraments, or one group will say there are only 2 sacraments, but another will say there aren’t any at all.

One group will say that baptism is necessary for Salvation, another will say it doesn’t matter if you’re baptized at all.

You see what I’m talking about? I could go on forever with differences in the varying sects of Protestants, and it will still be divided. No two groups in the Protestant factions can decide on what the essential beliefs for a Christian are.

Alaha minokhoun
Andrew

It is not what a church teaches that makes members part of the catholic church; it is what the individual people believe that matters.

Our churches, and I am including Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox and whatever else in this, have added a lot of extra doctrines and rules to the Christian religion. I don’t think that Jesus intended His Church to be a complex mess of rules and doctrines on every possible thing we can think requires one. Jesus was teaching simple, largely uneducated people. Did Jesus really expect there to be thousands of pages of Catechism and Canon Law? I don’t really think so. I use these examples from the Catholic Church but every church does the same thing and makes the Gospel complex.

Do people need a degree in philosophy or theology to understand Christianity.

I think if someone believes in one God, that Jesus is His Son who came died for us and rose again for the forgiveness of sins and tries to love God and other as Jesus loved us that they are part of the catholic (universal) Church.

Was the catholic Church originally one organization? Yes, it was what came to call itself the Catholic Church. Did it remain one organization? No. Whether Catholics accept it or not, as doctrine “developed” it became more and more complex and with came error in some things. That doesn’t mean that the Catholic Church stopped being Christain, but people could disagree with some of the developments that came about. As this happened the Church splintered. There hasn’t been just one church for a long time; splits occured long before the Reformation. People who belonged and belong to those chuches, and maintained the required beliefs, remained part of the catholic Church even if they no longer belonged to the Catholic Church. So yes the true cathloic Church is made up of believers in all denominations.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

It is not what a church teaches that makes members part of the catholic church; it is what the individual people believe that matters.

Jesus said “I will build my Church” He did not say I will make “individual people to believe what matters” You see, you or I dont have a say in this, If you want to be Christian or call yourself Christian one must obey Jesus Christ, not what I or you want to believe that matters. ( there are many Scriptures that support this)

Our churches, and I am including Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox and whatever else in this, have added a lot of extra doctrines and rules to the Christian religion. I don’t think that Jesus intended His Church to be a complex mess of rules and doctrines on every possible thing we can think requires one. Jesus was teaching simple, largely uneducated people. Did Jesus really expect there to be thousands of pages of Catechism and Canon Law? I don’t really think so.

The Catholic Church put down in writing the teachings of Jesus Christ and his apostles, SO THAT THOSE WHO COME AGAINST HER, WILL LEARN AND KNOW WHERE SHE STANDS. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is for YOU, to see for yourself, and for those who want to understand the teachings of Jesus. The Catholic church wants you to Know Jesus.

If the many rules or doctrines is what got you confused, then like the Eunich said to St. Phillip, (YOU) I NEED A TEACHER. Jesus told Peter to teach you, to feed you and love you. John 21:15-17 And where is Peter today, if Jesus has not left his church like he promised, Pope Benedict XVI , THE HOLY APOSTOLIC CATHOLIC CHURCH. p.s these are Jesus teachings not mans.

Do people need a degree in philosophy or theology to understand Christianity.

No you dont need a degree, you need a teacher although, the Church and Pillar of truth.

I think if someone believes in one God, that Jesus is His Son who came died for us and rose again for the forgiveness of sins and tries to love God and other as Jesus loved us that they are part of the catholic (universal) Church.

This; I think what I want to believe theology, is not going to cut it. One cannot try to love God, a true believer does love God. Because one loves or tries to love as you say, is not part of the Catholic church, the enemies of the Catholic Church love themselves and their false god’s, does that mean they are Catholic

Was the catholic Church originally one organization? Yes, it was what came to call itself the Catholic Church. Did it remain one organization?

Yes, The Catholic Church is the body of Christ on earth and it has remained , the body of Christ, to think otherwise is to hold Jesus in contempt, and you call him a liar.

No. Whether Catholics accept it or not, as doctrine “developed” it became more and more complex and with came error in some things. That doesn’t mean that the Catholic Church stopped being Christain, but people could disagree with some of the developments that came about. As this happened the Church splintered. There hasn’t been just one church for a long time; splits occured long before the Reformation. People who belonged and belong to those chuches, and maintained the required beliefs, remained part of the catholic Church even if they no longer belonged to the Catholic Church. So yes the true cathloic Church is made up of believers in all denominations.

**I wont give you a history lesson, this will come in time here. You cant change, nor can the Catholic church change the teachings of Jesus Christ, the Catholic Church and her members would rather die first , and many Saints have, before denying or changing what Jesus has revealed.

You cant group all different denominations under the Catholic Church,because it is not so. You have to be in communion with Jesus’s body and his authority he placed here on earth, that is Catholic, and the Chair of Peter.

Now all denominations fall under one name and that is Christian, but not Catholic.

Now, if you check your denominations history , they ALL CAME FROM THE HOLY APOSTOLIC CATHOLIC CHURCH, there is no denying this. Other denominations took with them teachings from the Catholic Church, and changed, added, removed Catholic doctrine from their denominations.

I will just end with this thought, Protestants or non Catholics have PART TRUTH WITH THEM, the Catholic Church has the Fullness of truth. (this we can investigate further)

Peace and love**

 

[SyCarl]

**I wont give you a history lesson, this will come in time here. You cant change, nor can the Catholic church change the teachings of Jesus Christ, the Catholic Church and her members would rather die first , and many Saints have, before denying or changing what Jesus has revealed.

You cant group all different denominations under the Catholic Church,because it is not so. You have to be in communion with Jesus’s body and his authority he placed here on earth, that is Catholic, and the Chair of Peter.

Now all denominations fall under one name and that is Christian, but not Catholic.

Now, if you check your denominations history , they ALL CAME FROM THE HOLY APOSTOLIC CATHOLIC CHURCH, there is no denying this. Other denominations took with them teachings from the Catholic Church, and changed, added, removed Catholic doctrine from their denominations.

I will just end with this thought, Protestants or non Catholics have PART TRUTH WITH THEM, the Catholic Church has the Fullness of truth. (this we can investigate further)

Peace and love**

Of course you believe that you have the fullness of truth but then Protestants believe that so do they.

This is not “what I want to believe theology”, it is the simplicity of the Gospel that Paul was afraid would be lost.

But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.
(2 Corinthians 11:3 NASB)

We have added so much that what many Churches require can not be described by the word simplicity.

Are you trying to say that non-Catholic Christians follow false gods?

You should also note that I differentiate between the catholic Church and the Catholic Church. The catholic Church is the true body of Christ and is not identical to the Catholic Church.

As for trying to love God and others, this is the best we can do because although some may succeed more than others, on earth we can never achieve the perfect and pure love that Jesus had for us and God. Our remaining capacity for sin prevents that.

Jesus’ teachings are not difficult. He does not require complexity of doctrine. Men’s pride may cause them to want to say that everything they claim to know is required because they want to know it and feel they should know it. But read what Jesus and the Apostles actually say and it is not complex or hard. We make it hard.

Jesus says:

“For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”
(Matthew 18:20 NASB)

He doesn’t say they have to have a priest or belong to a particular group. But if Jesus is there, the Church is there, and if Jesus is there, the Truth is there. There is no partial truth where Jesus is.

 

[Rightlydivide]

This was written by bengal_fan in another post and I wanted to discuss this further.

How does this view hold up against history and Scripture & Tradition? Many Fathers and Doctors of the Church, both East and West, taught nothing close to this, and in fact taught contrary to this belief. It was not taught for at least 1500 (maybe more) since Our Lord ascended to Heaven.

So for the Protestants that profess this, why? This sounds like a tradition of men to me.

How can such a thing be taken seriously with each denomination believing something different from the next? I know the over-played response of “well, we all believe in the essentials right?”

Nay! No two denominations can completely agree on what the essentials actually are, can they? I can’t seem to find in Protestant history where these essentials were defined, or more importantly in Sacred Scripture, where most, if not all Protestants go for the basis of their faith.

Alaha minokhoun
Andrew

What are the essentials of the faith that Catholics and Orthodox agree on?
What determined those essentials?

The Bible does not mention denominations. It does not mention Catholics. It does not mention Orthodox. It does not mention Oriental Orthodox. It does not mention any of the groups as they are being referrred to.
But be sure, it absolutely mentions divisions and disagreements. Did they call themselves denominations? No, of course not. These things did not start 1500 years later, they have always been.

 

[paidion]

I think Emergency Ops said it best on another thread:

The Catholic ™ Church?

In other words, it’s just a word, folks. The word “catholic” has no inherently sacred or special meaning, nor is it “owned” by one group of people.

I see too many ppl on this forum get hung up on what this word means/ doesn’t mean. Is it really so hard to understand that Catholic (big “C”) is commonly used to refer to the Roman Catholic Church and catholic (little “C”) refers to the body of believers who recognize Jesus as the Messiah - part of the Triune G-d, etc.???

For those who don’t want to relinquish the word catholic to those believers, I have a couple of questions.

1. What do you call a group of non-RCs (but believers in Messiah), and RCs combined together?
2. Why is this usage of the word “catholic” so troublesome??? I can only image that perhaps some might feel their own beliefs threatened or under attack??? (I dunno.)

shalom

 

[paidion]

The Bible does not mention denominations. It does not mention Catholics. It does not mention Orthodox. It does not mention Oriental Orthodox. It does not mention any of the groups as they are being referrred to.
But be sure, it absolutely mentions divisions and disagreements. Did they call themselves denominations? No, of course not. These things did not start 1500 years later, they have always been.

Like King Solomon said, “…there’s nothing new under the sun…”

In the NT (I. Cor. 3), didn’t some say “I follow Apollos!”, while others said, “I follow Paul!” And Paul said, “I planted, Apollos watered, but G-d was making it [the believers] grow and giving the increase…”

“…so neither he who plants is anything nor he who waters, but only G-d Who makes it grow.”

We may come from different backgrounds/traditions (even different amounts of faith), but when the rubber hits the road, the bottom line is that G-d is L-rd of all and Jesus is our Messiah. And we are to love Him with all our heart, soul, mind and strength - and to love others as He has loved us.

shalom

 

[SIA]

This was written by bengal_fan in another post and I wanted to discuss this further.

How does this view hold up against history and Scripture & Tradition? Many Fathers and Doctors of the Church, both East and West, taught nothing close to this, and in fact taught contrary to this belief. It was not taught for at least 1500 (maybe more) since Our Lord ascended to Heaven.

So for the Protestants that profess this, why? This sounds like a tradition of men to me.

How can such a thing be taken seriously with each denomination believing something different from the next? I know the over-played response of “well, we all believe in the essentials right?”

Nay! No two denominations can completely agree on what the essentials actually are, can they? I can’t seem to find in Protestant history where these essentials were defined, or more importantly in Sacred Scripture, where most, if not all Protestants go for the basis of their faith.

Alaha minokhoun
Andrew

By Scripture, a case can certainly be made for the catholic church (universal) but certainly not the Roman Catholic church. Let’s look at Peter, he only came to Rome to be martyred. The popes claim to be the successors of Peter. The popes are surrounded by immense wealth, carried into the Vatican masses on chariots by the Vatican guards. Peter was a poor fisherman. he wasn’t even a smart guy. he was anything but infallible as the Scriptures point out. None of it adds up in Scripure for Catholicism. You can twist and spin to make them fit but the truth is they don’t fit. Not even close.

 

[Harpazo]

By Scripture, a case can certainly be made for the catholic church (universal) but certainly not the Roman Catholic church. Let’s look at Peter, he only came to Rome to be martyred. The popes claim to be the successors of Peter. The popes are surrounded by immense wealth, carried into the Vatican masses on chariots by the Vatican guards. Peter was a poor fisherman. he wasn’t even a smart guy. he was anything but infallible as the Scriptures point out. None of it adds up in Scripure for Catholicism. You can twist and spin to make them fit but the truth is they don’t fit. Not even close.

I’m sorry, but your polemical attack comes nowhere close to answering the question. Why do you keep attacking the Church? You’ve been nothing but rude and nasty and haughty since you’ve been here. You can never seen to directly answer a question at all, and never fail to make attacks at the Church.

If you’re going to reply to the thread, please contribute to it, and not make personal attacks to the Church. You and I know there is nothing in Scripture to indicate a Church of believers with different beliefs.

Alaha minokhoun
Andrew

 

[SIA]

I’m sorry, but your polemical attack comes nowhere close to answering the question. Why do you keep attacking the Church? You’ve been nothing but rude and nasty and haughty since you’ve been here. You can never seen to directly answer a question at all, and never fail to make attacks at the Church.

If you’re going to reply to the thread, please contribute to it, and not make personal attacks to the Church. You and I know there is nothing in Scripture to indicate a Church of believers with different beliefs.

Alaha minokhoun
Andrew

You are absolutely wrong in your assumptions. Show me where Scripture depicts anything remotely close to what the Roman church is today. How many times does Jesus have to say it in the Gospels? How many times does Paul have to preach it? You don’t want to see it although it is there. Show me sound proof that the Roman church is the one and only.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Of course you believe that you have the fullness of truth but then Protestants believe that so do they.

There is a difference between Knowing and believing.Protestants Believing comes by faith only, Catholics Knowing can only come by Truth and faith.

This is not “what I want to believe theology”, it is the simplicity of the Gospel that Paul was afraid would be lost.

**I am not questioning Pauls faith, I am trying to understand your simplicity theology, You would not have this simple faith had it not been for the Roman Catholic Church. She gave you your bible to which you derive your simplicity theology. The only difference is , you were not taught the scriptures from the 2000 year old Roman Catholic Church, You are either self taught bible Christian, or you get your teachings from a non- catholic perspective, or we would not be having this communication. **

We have added so much that what many Churches require can not be described by the word simplicity.

I** agree, for 1500 yrs, there was only one Holy , Apostolic, Catholic church, Then the protesters to the True faith caused the many interpretations of Christian faith and theology, that many churches outside the Catholic Church reguire many different views of Christianity and scripture interpretation.**

Are you trying to say that non-Catholic Christians follow false gods?

There is alot I can say to that statement, but I will keep it simple. No. Luke 6:32 For if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. I was referring to the enemies of the Catholic Church, although if the shoe fits many have worn it.

You should also note that I differentiate between the catholic Church and the Catholic Church. The catholic Church is the true body of Christ and is not identical to the Catholic Church.

Please define your catholic Church that is not identical to the Catholic Church. If you are trying to explain Catholic rites, thats another topic. Please inform me, so that I can stay on the same page with you.

As for trying to love God and others, this is the best we can do because although some may succeed more than others, on earth we can never achieve the perfect and pure love that Jesus had for us and God. Our remaining capacity for sin prevents that.

Sy Carl, forgive me for asking, but do you have any knowledge of Jesus Christ instituting Sacraments in the scriptures? Because if you dont, that explains why you just put a limit on God’s love.

Jesus’ teachings are not difficult.

You are definitely Catholic if you believe in the following doctrines.
**1.Jesus has given us a Church his body, with authority on earth to bind and loose, and the keys to the kingdom of God.

2.Jesus has given us 7 Sacraments

3.Jesus has given us 2 commandments

All these have been with the Catholic Church for 2000 years

Can you explain your simple Christian doctrine of faith in 3 statements, and back it up with scripture? Please dont say only faith, sola scriptura thats not in the bible.**

He does not require complexity of doctrine. Men’s pride may cause them to want to say that everything they claim to know is required because they want to know it and feel they should know it. But read what Jesus and the Apostles actually say and it is not complex or hard. We make it hard.

**To be gathered in his name you have to have his body, first. Jesus is not a puff of smoke. He comes to us Sacramentally, with authority and power., Not with fists down, but with love, and a self will given over to God. Remember, Truth has to have both a body and the Spirit, his flesh and his divinity. to believe in God and know his presence, heaven and earth has to meet. You cant have this simple Christian theology without recieving his body, soul and divinity. You get this obeying Jesus Commandments, not man. If you got a problem with the Catholic Church obeying and following Jesus commandments, then thats another story we can talk about. **

He doesn’t say they have to have a priest or belong to a particular group.

**See this is what I mean, Who gives you the authority to say Jesus did not ordain a priesthood? or they must follow him (Jesus group), You might check your theology before making a statement like that. Do you want me to show you where Jesus institutes the priesthood, and why the body of Christ does not change.

Why do you think Jesus is called our High priest. We are all called to be priests, and royal priests at that. There is plenty of scripture Jesus ordaining the apostles to be his priests. Rev. 20:6…The second death has no power over these, they will be priests of God and Christ, and they will reign with him… If you need more let me know, check out Hebrews.**

But if Jesus is there, the Church is there, and if Jesus is there, the Truth is there.

Amen to that

There is no partial truth where Jesus is.

** Yes I agree, but are you 100% sure Jesus is where you say he is? (or are you going off your feelings and emotions or goose bumps,). Did Jesus promise this simple Christianity to you?.**, You see I believe and I know where Jesus is because he has given us his word, and his promise I have in his Roman Catholic Church.

Peace be with you