Church music

[pianistclare]

Do you deny that beauty is objective?

I don’t think that is what this thread is about.
It’s about people complaining about things that the average lay person can’t change.
Some people like the old stuff. Others don’t. That has little to do with whether or not a trained, capable musician is in charge, making sure that the proper dignity is there at the Liturgy. THAT’s what people should be asking for. Not change per se, but expertise.
Sometimes, that trained professional (more likely a volunteer pressed into) is not given any support or (name removed by moderator)ut even.

 

[R_H_Benson]

This is a story from “long ago” in the 80s, but when my parents moved to my current hometown, they along with a few like-minded people tried to get chant going at the parish. And they were succeeding to some extent, and weren’t getting any pushback from the pastor, but some parishioners were just so nasty about it to them, and complaining to the pastor so much, that they eventually just couldn’t do it anymore.

A sad tale that is heard far too often. Unfortunately we live in an era when pastors are handcuffed by the various lay liturgical committees who are set in their ways. On the bright side, as the seminaries continue to produce priests who are far more friendly to tradition than their predecessors, with time the attitudes of the laity will also shift and the “old guard” of the spirit of Vatican II will be replaced by a generation with a renewed appreciation for the treasury of liturgical music accrued over the ages. Tradition will reassert itself organically as the Church continues to emerge from the post-conciliar chaos, and the guitars and bongos will fade into obscurity.

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

Sub par is good in golf.

On a more serious note…
The ideal in the Roman Rite is chant not hymnody.

I was trying to be nice when I sad “sub par.”

There are a lot of hymns at Mass at the Catholic Church that I attend.

I would love more Gregorian Chant. That is way better than the awful hymns.

 

[TheSurvivor]

I was trying to be nice when I sad “sub par.”

There are a lot of hymns at Mass at the Catholic Church that I attend.

I would love more Gregorian Chant. That is way better than the awful hymns.

Agreed, what is especially annoying is all the first person pronouns present in the average hymn.

 

[pianistclare]

A sad tale that is heard far too often. Unfortunately we live in an era when pastors are handcuffed by the various lay liturgical committees who are set in their ways. On the bright side, as the seminaries continue to produce priests who are far more friendly to tradition than their predecessors, with time the attitudes of the laity will also shift and the “old guard” of the spirit of Vatican II will be replaced by a generation with a renewed appreciation for the treasury of liturgical music accrued over the ages. Tradition will reassert itself organically as the Church continues to emerge from the post-conciliar chaos, and the guitars and bongos will fade into obscurity.

What does one expect when they put a liturgy committee in place?
Liturgy is pretty well decided and dictated already, right?

 

[TheSurvivor]

I don’t think that is what this thread is about.
It’s about people complaining about things that the average lay person can’t change.
Some people like the old stuff. Others don’t. That has little to do with whether or not a trained, capable musician is in charge, making sure that the proper dignity is there at the Liturgy. THAT’s what people should be asking for. Not change per se, but expertise.
Sometimes, that trained professional (more likely a volunteer pressed into) is not given any support or (name removed by moderator)ut even.

I think I am more on topic, actually.

Do you deny that beauty is objective?

I do not see how your posts could be consistent with objective beauty.

 

[pnewton]

I think I am more on topic, actually.

Do you deny that beauty is objective?

Your definition of “beauty” would be needed first, as an adjective, it is really not an absolute, at least as normally defined. Any extent to which it is objective, if it is, would still do nothing but cause us to beg the question as to what is the absolute. I mean, it is not like we have heard God sing, or play the organ. We do not know what he physically looks like. He has not physical appearance to be considered an objective absolute.

I find it typically a universal absolute that those who profess objectively good music that this objective standard always, repeat always, coincides with what they like. This is good evidence that there is not such thing. Also, it has been 100% the case that when people have talked to me about such an absolute as objectively good music, I always feel as though I am talked down to from one who is superior to the rest of us common people. This is the tone of the article.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

I agree that most of the music played in Catholic churches today is rubbish and not appropriate for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[R_H_Benson]

What does one expect when they put a liturgy committee in place?
Liturgy is pretty well decided and dictated already, right?

Young pastors and parochial vicars upon arriving at their new assignments often find a thoroughly entrenched “this is how we do things around here” mentality.

 

[bobballen_18]

On a more serious note…
The ideal in the Roman Rite is chant not hymnody.

Yes, this! I’m not even trying to make the claim that we have to make the 100% switch to singing Renaissance Polyphony right now, this weekend…lol. I will consider it will be a good start if Gregorian Chant is given the proper place it deserves in the Liturgy.

Pianistclare, you’re basically outlining what is the big problem today - the fact that 1) people are so against changing anything, even if it’s to the Church’s own proper music, and 2) priests are not willing to change anything.

I think we need to start calling this what it is - a problem - and not simply say “well since all these things are allowed…” etc. Even if you don’t want to admit that all music HAS to be Gregorian chant or some sort of polyphony, you have to admit that it is a problem that the vast majority of Catholics very rarely hear chant in the Liturgy. We gotta fix that!!!

Possibly my favorite passage from my favorite document on Church music (Tra le Sollecitudini, 1903):

On these grounds Gregorian Chant has always been regarded as the supreme model for sacred music, so that it is fully legitimate to lay down the following rule: the more closely a composition for church approaches in its movement, inspiration and savor the Gregorian form, the more sacred and liturgical it becomes; and the more out of harmony it is with that supreme model, the less worthy it is of the temple.

The ancient traditional Gregorian Chant must, therefore, in a large measure be restored to the functions of public worship, and the fact must be accepted by all that an ecclesiastical function loses none of its solemnity when accompanied by this music alone.

 

[peter26]

If my parish is anything to go by, Ordinariate parishes place a lot of emphasis on good music, so that’s always an option. We use traditional hymns, sung responses and a certain amount of chanting. Anglican converts seem to put a premium on good music.

 

[ProVobis]

What does one expect when they put a liturgy committee in place?
Liturgy is pretty well decided and dictated already, right?

I thought someone had to decide which of so many options to use for a particular Sunday.

Incidentally, one could incorporate chant (or even antiphons) in addition to the opening and closing hymns. Our FSSP Mass has an opening hymn right before the Asperges Me, the Introit chant, etc. Of course, it’s an EF but we don’t want any more ruptures, do we?

 

[bobballen_18]

Incidentally, one could incorporate chant (or even antiphons) in addition to the opening and closing hymns. Our FSSP Mass has an opening hymn right before the Asperges Me, the Introit chant, etc. Of course, it’s an EF but we don’t want any more ruptures, do we?

Ah, but in the EF there’s time to do both, when you’re doing a High Mass with the Asperges. When we do a High Mass at my parish, our priest skips the Asperges and so we actually don’t have time to do the hymn - we just start right with the Introit.

In the Ordinary Form, unless it is what could be called a “High Mass” in the sense that it’s a Solemn Mass with incense and all that, in which maybe there will be time for both an Entrance Antiphon and a hymn, but since that (Solemn Mass) like never happens, at least in my experience (I realize that might happen in some places), there is just not room for both an Antiphon and a hymn. At my parish, I think perhaps as an introduction to the Entrance Antiphon, we started singing the Entrance Antiphon with the priest basically just standing at the back waiting for us to finish, with him starting to process up as we begin the hymn. We’ve been doing that for almost a year now…and I hate it because it is still giving precedence to the hymn. Not that I hate hymns or anything, but if we’re being honest, there’s no inherent need for a hymn at the Entrance. I suppose if one is using the SEP or something (I have no idea about them, I’ve never really used them), they are short enough that there is time for a hymn…but the Lumen Christi series, which is our current hymnal/missal, has verses for the Entrance Antiphon which could suffice for a long procession with incense. Or, the traditional Latin Introit for the day would likely suffice as those usually last a few minutes or so with the Psalm, verse, Gloria Patri, and Psalm again.

I should stop talking…the loss of singing the actual propers for the day is another bone of contention for me! Lol. I think hymns are great at the Offertory and Communion, after the actual Propers have been used (I guess not so much Offertory since the status of that is questionable but definitely Communion).

I know, people are going to tell me “oh but hymns are allowed to replace the propers” blah blah. Yeah I know they are - fine, do what you “need” to do, Lol. I think/hope/pray things will change eventually. Sorry for being such a “negative Nancy”

 

[ProVobis]

I know, people are going to tell me “oh but hymns are allowed to replace the propers” blah blah. Yeah I know they are - fine, do what you “need” to do, Lol. I think/hope/pray things will change eventually. Sorry for being such a “negative Nancy”

RIght. Somehow going from “Gather Us In” to “Good morning, etc etc” to “Lord have mercy” just doesn’t seem to have that right Mass flow, though it’s thoroughly ingrained by now.

 

[exnihilo]

Honestly, I have to say that I find the Catholic hymns to be sub par. In my church, the hymns are much better and are executed much better. Also, I have noticed that there seems to be more singing by the congregants in my church versus the Catholic Church.

And before anyone asks, yes, I have been to Catholic Mass many times. I go every Sunday.

In my limited experience there seems to be no awareness or ability to sing parts. The hymns are sung monophonically. So if you just use the basic SATB parts that at least the old hymns have you’d greatly improve the quality of hymns. Or, If you insist on monophony go with chant since it is much better suited for it.

 

[pnewton]

Pianistclare, you’re basically outlining what is the big problem today - the fact that 1) people are so against changing anything, even if it’s to the Church’s own proper music, and 2) priests are not willing to change anything.

I think we need to start calling this what it is - a problem - and not simply say “well since all these things are allowed…” etc. Even if you don’t want to admit that all music HAS to be Gregorian chant or some sort of polyphony, you have to admit that it is a problem that the vast majority of Catholics very rarely hear chant in the Liturgy. We gotta fix that!!!

In the grand scheme of life, I do not know that I could ever call music a “problem,” yet I concur that liturgical inertia takes some effort to overcome. I have had some success in incorporating both Latin and chant into more of the liturgy, but it has been a gradual process. So far, I have met with no opposition, other than the occasional, “not yet.”

 

[Murmurs]

Anglican converts seem to put a premium on good music.

Indeed we do

 

[bobballen_18]

In the grand scheme of life, I do not know that I could ever call music a “problem,” yet I concur that liturgical inertia takes some effort to overcome

I definitely disagree. Anything to do with the Liturgy is a big deal “in the grand scheme of Life.” And one of the big reasons I think it is such a big problem is not just because I love sacred music - I do - but it also really bothers me that there is the attitude that “everything is ok” and that for the most part, there is no sense whatsoever of striving towards “better” or more ideal music for worship. In other words, the very fact that many people don’t think there is any problem at all is, to me, the problem.

I have had some success in incorporating both Latin and chant into more of the liturgy, but it has been a gradual process. So far, I have met with no opposition, other than the occasional, “not yet.”

That is good to hear! Sure, the “gradual process” is the way to go. I definitely support making gradual changes, as long as there is always the goal of attaining the true standards which the Church holds, and to get rid of anything which is furthest from being appropriate for the Liturgy. That is, anything which is furthest from reflecting the “Gregorian model” and is therefore less appropriate for the Liturgy.

 

[oldrover]

In my limited experience there seems to be no awareness or ability to sing parts. The hymns are sung monophonically. So if you just use the basic SATB parts that at least the old hymns have you’d greatly improve the quality of hymns. Or, If you insist on monophony go with chant since it is much better suited for it.

Unfortunately, the Catholic hymnals have no SATB parts… just the one note of the melody. Dunno why OCP does that… but there’s a lot I don’t get about OCP.

 

[pnewton]

… as long as there is always the goal of attaining the true standards which the Church holds, and to get rid of anything which is furthest from being appropriate for the Liturgy. That is, anything which is furthest from reflecting the “Gregorian model” and is therefore less appropriate for the Liturgy.

Again, that cannot be my goal, as I do not believe “true” can be applied to any musical standard. Perhaps the music is more of a problem for your area, parish and region. In my own parish, we are handling it nicely, and it presents no major problem. In accordance to canon law, I allow the bishop and priest do decide what is most appropriate for our local liturgy.