Church music

[clem456]

In our parish, there is a lot of pressure for the liturgy/music director to conform. He is capable of doing it all from pipe organ with a big choir to the H’s with guitars.
But the leadership element in the parish really pushes for the new music in an effort to bring em in.
This effort is ongoing for 45 years now and has not produced the hoped for results.
But, because ministerial leadership is predominantly 55+ and female, a certain type of music is still the correct “new” music. Ok…

Here’s the irony: our director comes from a very musical family. Wife and son are both accomplished musicians. My son as well is a musician.

When these two boys went through high school here my son says “they think they know what youth music is but they don’t know what they’re doing. It’s stupid”. Take it with a grain of salt, he was 16 or so.

What do these young people listen to and perform in college?
How about stuff like Carmin Burana by Orff.
Sound track to Lord of the Rings.
Beethoven’s 5th.
All intense music, with timeless themes. Music that can move the spirit outside itself. .

It’s unfortunate that many people in control of liturgy have no idea what type of music moves people. Music need not be tepid, or “nice”, or “different” for different’s sake, to appeal to young people.
Much of the music sung at our youth masses is near impossible to follow. The melodies make no intuitive sense whatsoever, the rhythms meander to nowhere. They are different, for the sake of being different. What my son was saying in effect was “the music panders to young people in a patronizing way. We know you young people need something different, here ya go”.

There isn’t a problem with modern music, there is a problem with poorly done modern music. There is such a thing.

 

[exnihilo]

Unfortunately, the Catholic hymnals have no SATB parts… just the one note of the melody. Dunno why OCP does that… but there’s a lot I don’t get about OCP.

Since Catholics don’t have a history of singing these tunes and thus don’t have the parts memorized, I can only assume they don’t expect anyone to actually sing those parts. They expect the hymns to be sung poorly. The melody only also presents a problem for men who can have trouble singing this part. Many of the hymns have somewhat complex melodies, for a congregation, with a wide range that would be difficult for even better congregational singers. It is rather bizarre, unless the purpose is to make bad music.

 

[bobballen_18]

…I do not believe “true” can be applied to any musical standard.

I’m confused. Are you saying that you don’t believe the Church holds any musical standards for the Liturgy? Or that if they do, that the Church’s reasoning behind such standards is arbitrary since “‘true’ cannot be applied to any musical standard”? So basically you are saying that there is no music which is inherently more appropriate for the Liturgy than other music? I’m very curious to hear your answers to these questions.

Perhaps the music is more of a problem for your area, parish and region. In my own parish, we are handling it nicely, and it presents no major problem. In accordance to canon law, I allow the bishop and priest do decide what is most appropriate for our local liturgy.

Not that I’ve been to tons and tons of different parishes in many different areas, but I have been to different parishes and areas, so based on that personal experience as well as the experience of my friends (From various places in the US) from their own parishes, this is NOT just a regional problem.

I could really go on about priests and bishops making decisions about sacred music in particular…but I better not as I will likely only be (unjustly, in my opinion) perceived as criticizing them.

So, pnewton, I’m only looking for answers to the questions I asked above. I can’t wait!

 

[otjm]

Agreed, what is especially annoying is all the first person pronouns present in the average hymn.

I don’t know what book you are singing from, but the one I see has a multitude of hymns which are from the Oland and New Testament. Not a whole lot of 1st person there.

 

[otjm]

Unfortunately, the Catholic hymnals have no SATB parts… just the one note of the melody. Dunno why OCP does that… but there’s a lot I don’t get about OCP.

OCP does that because most people in the pew - which is where OCP music is found - can’t sing in parts.

Just a hint - they (the ones in the pews) couldn’t sing in parts in the 1950’s either.

However, I would be surprised if OCP didn’t have music in parts for choirs which could actually sing in parts. Has anyone sought out their catalogue or contacted them?

 

[clem456]

OCP does that because most people in the pew - which is where OCP music is found - can’t sing in parts.

Just a hint - they (the ones in the pews) couldn’t sing in parts in the 1950’s either.

However, I would be surprised if OCP didn’t have music in parts for choirs which could actually sing in parts. Has anyone sought out their catalogue or contacted them?

Right. There would little benefit to printing the harmonies as 99% of people can’t read them or sing them. It takes some ability and practice to do that.

We have a cantor who, when he sings in the congregation, will sing in parts, and really, all it does is cause confusion for those who are trying to chortle along with the melody.
I want to say "dude, just sing the melody and help the people around you to praise the Lord. " But, to each his own…

 

[ProVobis]

But, to each his own…

Exactly. Music is too personal to make everyone happy.

 

[TheSurvivor]

I don’t know what book you are singing from, but the one I see has a multitude of hymns which are from the Oland and New Testament. Not a whole lot of 1st person there.

I do not sing out of hymnals.

 

[TheSurvivor]

Exactly. Music is too personal to make everyone happy.

Perhaps.

However, the Church favors Gregorian Chant for our rite; therefore, regardless of who may be displeased, chant should be the primary form of music.

 

[bobballen_18]

Unfortunately, the Catholic hymnals have no SATB parts… just the one note of the melody. Dunno why OCP does that… but there’s a lot I don’t get about OCP.

Maybe it is just an OCP thing. It is not “the Catholic hymnals” thing - our current hymnal, which is not an OCP hymnal, definitely has parts available. There is a main hymnal for the congregation which has just the melody, and then there is also a choral version available with parts.

 

[pnewton]

I’m confused. Are you saying that you don’t believe the Church holds any musical standards for the Liturgy? Or that if they do, that the Church’s reasoning behind such standards is arbitrary since “‘true’ cannot be applied to any musical standard”? So basically you are saying that there is no music which is inherently more appropriate for the Liturgy than other music? I’m very curious to hear your answers to these questions.

So, pnewton, I’m only looking for answers to the questions I asked above. I can’t wait!

If that is truly what you want, I will gladly answer. Yes, the Church holds standards, but does not set the standard as an ideal for which all parishes must strive. The Church does not use such words as “true” which are likely to carry some moral or doctrinal component, but words like “esteem” or “fitting.” Also, what is deemed to be fitting has changed over the centuries, belying the idea of the absolute. This is not to say these standards are arbitrary. They are a matter of our tradition and of great value. It is also not saying that all music is equally suitable.

We know this from history; if at one time someone did not take the plunge and depart from Gregorian chant and adding parts, we would not have polyphonic chant today. If no one would have ever dared to add an instrument, we would not have magnificent church organs today. So while we value tradition, an cringe at excessive experimentation, we need also recognize the value of singing a new song, a new way.

Now, I could also delve into inculturation. The Roman Rite is so heavily European we sometimes forget that America, as a cultural melting pot, is not. We could point out the hispanic influence, and it is significant, but our greatest cultural influence, and a positive one, is the wealth of Protestant music. This makes sense when you consider that without the Holy Eucharist, music is their height of worship. So without this, we also would not have the SATB discussion above. By the way, SATB was the format of **all **hymnals fifty years ago found in Baptist pews. It is how I learned to read music and distinguish parts.

 

[Trad_Catholic27]

Traditional Chant and Polyphony are the perfect from of music for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass period.

Even the orthodox are scandalized by Our abandonment of Chant and Polyphony I was speaking to an orthodox friend of mine who claimed that since orthodoxy has not changed the Divine Liturgy and adopted false doctrines of the Immaculate conception the Filoque and Papal infallibility that makes Catholicism a heresy.

If that is how the majority of orthodox view the Novus Oro Mass then we need to return towards traditional Catholic music in the Mass.

 

[ProVobis]

However, the Church favors Gregorian Chant for our rite; therefore, regardless of who may be displeased, chant should be the primary form of music.

Indeed. We even had a council which echoed that sentiment in its first documents.

But apparently it wasn’t enough to reverse the downward trend of its use in the liturgy. Just sayin…I’m not one who favored the 4-hymn format which effectively and eventually replaced the Latin texts of the Mass going forward after the council. Since then it has turned out to be a game of “preferences” among all types of music.

 

[pnewton]

Traditional Chant and Polyphony are the perfect from of music for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass period.

Even the orthodox are scandalized by Our abandonment of Chant and Polyphony I was speaking to an orthodox friend of mine who claimed that since orthodoxy has not changed the Divine Liturgy and adopted false doctrines of the Immaculate conception the Filoque and Papal infallibility that makes Catholicism a heresy.

If that is how the majority of orthodox view the Novus Oro Mass then we need to return towards traditional Catholic music in the Mass.

This is a rather inconsistent opinion on the part of your friend as polyphony was not allowable until well after the Eastern schism. Also, I would point out to him that the Catholic Church does not put musical choice on the same level as doctrine. I would be surprised if the Orthodox do.

But no, the Catholic Church is not going to change the liturgy, nor should she, because of errors in the Orthodox way of thinking.

 

[Trad_Catholic27]

That’s right Pnetwon

The Liturgy belongs solely to Christ and not man.

I think it’s shows the universal nature of our Faith which appeals to every human regardless of rank,age,or gender.

The orthodox are so focused on persevering their Liturgical practices that forgot the imporant lession of not being to legalistic which has resulted in them becoming infexable

 

[ProVobis]

The orthodox are so focused on persevering their Liturgical practices that forgot the imporant lession of not being to legalistic which has resulted in them becoming infexable

That’s quite a claim. Do you have any references to back you up on that? The Orthodox have been around a long time, longer than Trent, in fact.

 

[rben20]

Perhaps.

However, the Church favors Gregorian Chant for our rite; therefore, regardless of who may be displeased, chant should be the primary form of music.

This is a point that many will over look as they have for the past 50 years. The Roman Rite and the special place of honor Gregorian Chant has is not something that should be taken lightly. The whatever floats your boat mentality is why we have such terrible music in Church today.

 

[Trad_Catholic27]

No they have not been around longer than Trent.

In the Early church all of eastern orthodox were a part of the Catholic Church their schism in 1054 because of political interference by Byzantine emperors who wanted more authority over the bishops of the eastern rite.

They may have a valid priesthood but they celebrate the Mass invaildy.

Because they are not in communion with Rome unlike the Eastern Catholics who reunited with Rome

 

[otjm]

I do not sing out of hymnals.

Well, maybe you don’t, but a whole lot of other people do.

 

[otjm]

No they have not been around longer than Trent.

In the Early church all of eastern orthodox were a part of the Catholic Church their schism in 1054 because of political interference by Byzantine emperors who wanted more authority over the bishops of the eastern rite.

They may have a valid priesthood but they celebrate the Mass invaildy.

Because they are not in communion with Rome unlike the Eastern Catholics who reunited with Rome

Their Masses are valid and so is their Eucharist.

And you seem to forget that there were plenty of kings and queens in Europe who exercised not a little authority over bishops, and a few who took on some of the popes.

And by the way, Trent was in the 1500’s, which is about 50 years after the schism…