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Nohome
Guest
I’m sorry that reality disgusts you. I’ve been there and seen it with my own eyes. Yes, there are devout Catholics in Africa, but there are also masses of destitute people just trying to survive.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
m134e5,
I respectfully disagree. When we obey the Church, we are obeying God. God does not call us to love everything He wants us to do, yet He does call us to obey Him. A person who goes to Mass because they feel they “must” go is not getting the most out of the Mass, yet they are getting Graces just for being there.
Anyone who thinks they “must” attend Mass, must also think that God is real and that obeying God is important. If they did not think so, they would not attend. Additionally, the Catholic view is that faith is a journey, not a one-time declaration like so many Protestants think. In other words, a person who attends Mass because they think they “must” attend still receives Graces and that person might very well fall in-love with God later in life thanks to the Graces they received. If they do not attend, they receive no Graces at all. I will grant you that the Mass is more spiritually rich when we are truly in-love with Christ, yet love affairs sometimes take time and patience and one must be in the pew for the Lord’s Grace to work on them.
We tend to want everyone to be on-fire for Christ, yet most fires start very small and grow large. The Graces we receive overtime helps us to grow that fire into a very real blaze of love for God.
Please consider cutting those pew sitters a break. They are there, they are receiving Graces, they believe “enough” to know they must attend and later in life they might be a disciple of saint like quality.
I applaud all Catholics who regularly attend Mass for any reason, either because they think they must, or because they are totally in-love with the Lord. They are all receiving Graces, they all are on a journey, they are all God’s children.
I respectfully disagree. When we obey the Church, we are obeying God. God does not call us to love everything He wants us to do, yet He does call us to obey Him. A person who goes to Mass because they feel they “must” go is not getting the most out of the Mass, yet they are getting Graces just for being there.
Anyone who thinks they “must” attend Mass, must also think that God is real and that obeying God is important. If they did not think so, they would not attend. Additionally, the Catholic view is that faith is a journey, not a one-time declaration like so many Protestants think. In other words, a person who attends Mass because they think they “must” attend still receives Graces and that person might very well fall in-love with God later in life thanks to the Graces they received. If they do not attend, they receive no Graces at all. I will grant you that the Mass is more spiritually rich when we are truly in-love with Christ, yet love affairs sometimes take time and patience and one must be in the pew for the Lord’s Grace to work on them.
We tend to want everyone to be on-fire for Christ, yet most fires start very small and grow large. The Graces we receive overtime helps us to grow that fire into a very real blaze of love for God.
Please consider cutting those pew sitters a break. They are there, they are receiving Graces, they believe “enough” to know they must attend and later in life they might be a disciple of saint like quality.
I applaud all Catholics who regularly attend Mass for any reason, either because they think they must, or because they are totally in-love with the Lord. They are all receiving Graces, they all are on a journey, they are all God’s children.
M
maklavan
Guest
I’m sorry but this post disgusts me. I dare you to say that to an African Catholic! They are on average much more zealous in their faith than the average American. And I dare you to to tell any Church worker providing basic needs to poor Africans that you think they provide these basic needs only to people who “say that they are Catholic”. What bigoted and racist nonsense.
I think this an example of the kettle calling the pot black! Your comment “I dare you to say that you are an African Catholic!” reeks of racism itself! Having lived in Africa for years, I would like to point out the follwing:
1 There are many White African Catholics in Africa.
2. It is true that the Church is progessing in Africa, but the Moslem Faith is progressing at a faster pace, and their conversions tend to stick, whereas Catholic conversions are sometimes superficial.
3 The phenomenon described by “Nohome” was common practice, historically, among Christian Missionaries. Its converts were called “rice Christians”
3 The phenomeno described by
I think this an example of the kettle calling the pot black! Your comment “I dare you to say that you are an African Catholic!” reeks of racism itself! Having lived in Africa for years, I would like to point out the follwing:
1 There are many White African Catholics in Africa.
2. It is true that the Church is progessing in Africa, but the Moslem Faith is progressing at a faster pace, and their conversions tend to stick, whereas Catholic conversions are sometimes superficial.
3 The phenomenon described by “Nohome” was common practice, historically, among Christian Missionaries. Its converts were called “rice Christians”
3 The phenomeno described by
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TPJCatholic
Guest
Nohome,
I do not agree. Signs of renewal are everywhere. The fact that so many Catholics express pain on this board is incredible evidence of a true renewal. It will take time, yet the future of the faith looks incredibly bright. The Church has gone through much pain lately, yet that will be followed by the springtime that Pope John Paul II talked so much about.
Vocations are “way” up in dioceses that are faithful.
People are clamoring for the Latin Mass and they are receiving those Masses at a much higher rate.
There is a convent that just ten years ago had only 4 sisters, today they have over 60 and that happened because of their faithfulness. Those sisters are being trained as teachers and will then move into Catholic schools to teach the faith and academics.
The young Priests coming out of seminaries today are incredibly faithful and orthodox and they want nothing to do with the liberalism of the past 30-40 years.
The plight of our Catholic universisities is well known and Catholics are no longer blindly accepting that any school is truly Catholic.
The cause for life and for many other Catholic teachings are being fought on the battlefield of our culture.
Catholics, albeit still smaller numbers, are spreading the faith.
There are new, young, apologists coming up that will hope draw in more young people.
10-20 years from the Church will truly be in a golden age…imo.
Just do whatever you can, remain faithful always and pray for the Church and for vocations.
I do not agree. Signs of renewal are everywhere. The fact that so many Catholics express pain on this board is incredible evidence of a true renewal. It will take time, yet the future of the faith looks incredibly bright. The Church has gone through much pain lately, yet that will be followed by the springtime that Pope John Paul II talked so much about.
Vocations are “way” up in dioceses that are faithful.
People are clamoring for the Latin Mass and they are receiving those Masses at a much higher rate.
There is a convent that just ten years ago had only 4 sisters, today they have over 60 and that happened because of their faithfulness. Those sisters are being trained as teachers and will then move into Catholic schools to teach the faith and academics.
The young Priests coming out of seminaries today are incredibly faithful and orthodox and they want nothing to do with the liberalism of the past 30-40 years.
The plight of our Catholic universisities is well known and Catholics are no longer blindly accepting that any school is truly Catholic.
The cause for life and for many other Catholic teachings are being fought on the battlefield of our culture.
Catholics, albeit still smaller numbers, are spreading the faith.
There are new, young, apologists coming up that will hope draw in more young people.
10-20 years from the Church will truly be in a golden age…imo.
Just do whatever you can, remain faithful always and pray for the Church and for vocations.
N
Nohome
Guest
Thank you for your insightful comments. Based on my experience, Africa remains a paradoxical mix of hope and dispare. I refuse entertain comments of bigotry and racism until others remove the plank from their own eye.
Nohome
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Colm_O_Higgins
Guest
Nohome: Ive read through this post and have had some difficulty isolating the ‘comments of bigotry and racism’. Well, unless you consider the attempts to gainsay Catholic conversions in Africa by declaring most to be caused by material motivations an archetypal case of racism or bigotry. But you raise a valid point regarding sustaining the Church and evangelizing the World. Over the past 50 years, many priests sought to consolidate the Church’s position. They spent themselves trying to reshape the Church to whichever stream of thought seemed most ‘progressive’ or ‘modern’. I think this is the key difference between our new priests (whose numbers are growing and growing) and our middle-aged priests. The new blood, if I can use such a callous term, understands that sustinance and evangelization are one in the same. A Church not commited to spreading the entirity of Christ’s message to the World is a church which has no vitality. As far as Churches and congregations becoming less personal, I suppose that is a rationally interminable statement. I mean, I now belong to a large parish (having been part of a much smaller one for several years) and my experience has been quite the opposite. Maybe it is different for other Christian denominations?
Maklavan: Unfortunately for the comparitive scholar in all of us, one simply cannot analyze ‘converts’ to Catholicism against ‘converts’ to Islam. Why? For starters, Islam is a national identity in much the same way being American or Canadian is a national identity. Most Muslims are Muslims because of their location. There is no family decision for baptism or anything voluntary, one is simply born into Islam. Even in Hussein’s secular state of Iraq, Islam was (and remains) the de facto criteria of citizenship; one cannot participate in social or economic life without being a Muslim. Islam is spread by way of invasion and assimilation. There are exceptions to the rule naturally, but to draw any meaningful or cogent conclusions from such a comparison, one would have to go back 300-600 years to find an adequate Catholic example. Perhaps the looming secularization of the Middle East will make things easier.
But going back to the original topic, I think the preacher is ‘preaching to the converted’. Those whom consider themselves righly ordered Catholics are well aware of the moral, spiritual and heck, liturgical decay which has bedraggled the Church over the past 50 years. As TPJ writes however, the signs of renewal are everywhere.
Maklavan: Unfortunately for the comparitive scholar in all of us, one simply cannot analyze ‘converts’ to Catholicism against ‘converts’ to Islam. Why? For starters, Islam is a national identity in much the same way being American or Canadian is a national identity. Most Muslims are Muslims because of their location. There is no family decision for baptism or anything voluntary, one is simply born into Islam. Even in Hussein’s secular state of Iraq, Islam was (and remains) the de facto criteria of citizenship; one cannot participate in social or economic life without being a Muslim. Islam is spread by way of invasion and assimilation. There are exceptions to the rule naturally, but to draw any meaningful or cogent conclusions from such a comparison, one would have to go back 300-600 years to find an adequate Catholic example. Perhaps the looming secularization of the Middle East will make things easier.
But going back to the original topic, I think the preacher is ‘preaching to the converted’. Those whom consider themselves righly ordered Catholics are well aware of the moral, spiritual and heck, liturgical decay which has bedraggled the Church over the past 50 years. As TPJ writes however, the signs of renewal are everywhere.
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