Church of Alexandria

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Dear TWF,

There seems to be two canon lists extant in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. One is the standard Christian canon; the other indeed has 8 more books in the NT than the standard Christian canon. These eight “books” are 4 sections of apostolic canons from the Sinodos, 2 parts of the Ethiopic Book of the Covenant, the epistle of Clement, and the Didascalia. Some ancient lists state that these eight “books” are comprised of 8 epistles of Clement.

God bless,

Greg
 
The Coptic Church does not follow the OT precepts that the Ethiopians do. I wonder why the Ethiopians maintained these practices while under the jurisdiction of the Coptic Patriarchate for so many centuries?
 
Irish Melkite:
Eastern Patriarchs directly rule the faithful of their Particular Churches, who are not simultaneously subject to any other Patriarch. It is in the exercise of his papal role that the Eastern Patriarchs are subject to the Pope; as Patriarch of the West, he is - to them - primus inter pares, first among equals.
Sob :nope: Irish Melkite, I hate to correct you.

The Pope is NOT first among equals. He is first, no equals.

The faithful (and all the bishops) of whatever rite or sui juris Church ARE simultaneously subject to the Pope, although it would be more accurate to say that the Pope’s authority over them supercedes that of their Patriarch.

piar.hu/councils/ecum20.htm#Chapter%203.%20On%20the%20power%20and%20character%20of%20the%20primacy%20of%20the%20Roman%20pontiff

Tinyurl – tinyurl.com/3rja6

Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other church, and that this **jurisdictional power of the Roman pontiff ** is both episcopal and immediate. Both **clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power ** by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the church throughout the world.
. . .

So, then, if anyone says that the Roman pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: **let him be anathema. **​

 
The Pope is NOT first among equals. He is first, no equals.
I suppose that is a phrase that could be read various ways, both orthodox and heretical.

However, sacarmentally, the Pope is a bishop. Christ entrusted the Church with a threefold ministry – deacons, priests and bishops. The Pope is of the class of bishop, though first of his class, he is not above or outside his class. The papacy is not a fourth level of Holy Orders. Holy Orders has three levels of which the highest is the episcopacy. This is a doctrine of the Catholic faith.

Even though he is not always charitable to me, I have to say that in this sense, Irish Melkite is right.
 
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katherine2:
I suppose that is a phrase that could be read various ways, both orthodox and heretical.

However, sacarmentally, the Pope is a bishop. Christ entrusted the Church with a threefold ministry – deacons, priests and bishops. The Pope is of the class of bishop, though first of his class, he is not above or outside his class. The papacy is not a fourth level of Holy Orders. Holy Orders has three levels of which the highest is the episcopacy. This is a doctrine of the Catholic faith.

Even though he is not always charitable to me, I have to say that in this sense, Irish Melkite is right.
The doctrine of the Catholic Church is that everybody in the Church, of whatever rite or rank is immediately **subordinate to the Pope ** by the duty of hierarchical subordination. That means an altargirl in Birmingham, a mother in London, a nun in Paris, a bishop in Ceylon, and a Patriarch in Damascus.

Subordination means just that -subordination.

Irish Melkite belongs to a Patriarchate whose Patriarch is pushing the limits in his claim for equality with the Pope and he has been slapped down by the Vatican once or twice for his pains.

As an Orthodox Christian, I very much hope that the Patriarch’s efforts bear fruit and pave the way for the development of a more Orthodox paradigm of authority in the Roman Catholic Church. But in the meantime, the Patriarch is, in present theology, a subordinate of the Pope of Rome.
 
Subordinate as far as the affairs of the entire Universal Catholic Church are concerned…but the patriarch plays a similar role for Melkite Catholics that the Pope does for Roman Catholics. As far as the office of patriarch is concerned, they play the same role. It is only in the Pope’s special Petrine ministry that his authority is superior to the Melkite Patriarch’s.
 
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twf:
Subordinate as far as the affairs of the entire Universal Catholic Church are concerned…but the patriarch plays a similar role for Melkite Catholics that the Pope does for Roman Catholics. As far as the office of patriarch is concerned, they play the same role. It is only in the Pope’s special Petrine ministry that his authority is superior to the Melkite Patriarch’s.
It is fairly clear that the Patriarchs of the Byzantine Catholic Churches are not treated as first among equals in their patriarchal status vis-a-vis the Pope in his own capacity as Patriarch of the West.

For example, the Byzantine Catholic Patriarchs are disenfranchised when it comes to appointing bishops within their own Churches. The appointments which should be made by the Patriarch and the Synod of his Church are in fact made from Rome by the Pope. This “equality” is a bit of a Catholic urban legend.

Here are merely a few recent examples.

eparchy-of-van-nuys.org/docs/newsletter-2002-XI-2.htm
  1. Most Reverend Basil Schott, OFM, was named Archbishop of Pittsburgh and Metropolitan of the Byzantine Metropolitan Church there **by Pope John Paul II ** on May 2, 2002. The appointment was made known by the Apostolic Nuncio, Very Reverend Gabriel Montalvo JCD.
With joy we received the announcement of the appointment of the Most Reverend Basil M. Schott, OFM, presently the Bishop of the Eparchy of Parma, succeeding the Most Rev. Judson Procyk of blessed memory, as the fourth Archbishop of Pittsburgh and Metropolitan of the Byzantine Metropolitan church sui juris of Pittsburgh.

**Through this appointment His Holiness, Pope John Paul II ** has placed his confidence in him that he will fulfill these two distinct offices of Archbishop and Metropolitan with responsibility, making every effort to serve the best interest of our Metropolia.
  1. **Very Reverend John M. Kudrick was appointed Bishop-elect of Parma by His Holiness John Paul II ** at the same time as Bishop Schott’s elevation, and it was announced by the Papal Nuncio, Most Reverend Gabriel Montalvo, JCD.
In my capacity as Administrator of the Byzantine Metropolitan Church sui juris of Pittsburgh, it is my privilege and honor to announce that **His Holiness, Pope John Paul II has appointed the Very Rev. Archpriest John M. Kudrick as the fourth Bishop of the Eparchy of Parma, **
  1. His Holiness, Pope John Paul II, has accepted the resignation of the Most Reverend John A. Elya from pastoral governance of the Eparchy of Newton and has appointed the Most Reverend Cyrille Salim Bustros, most recently Archbishop of Baalbeck in Lebanon, as the new Eparch of Newton. **The Holy Father’s acceptance of Bishop Elya’s resignation and the appointment of Archbishop Bustros ** are effective at the installation of the New Eparch.
    catholic-pages.com/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=2303
 
Father: Thanks for the info. I do not know the inner-workings of the Eastern churches and their arrangements with Rome, but from what I do know, I would say that it is because these particular churches are outside the traditional geographical boundaries of those Eastern churches. A quick glance suggested that these appointments are to American jurisdictions. Is this correct? I understand that Eastern jurisdictions in immigrant countries are immediately subject to the Holy See in all or most cases. Can an Eastern Catholic verify this?
I believe that bishops in Lebanon would be appointed by the Maronite Church, and bishops in the Middle-East by the Melkite Church, etc. (Though in the case on non-patriarchial churches, the situation is probably somewhat different).

Just one nitpick. There is only one Byzantine-Rite patriarch in the entire Catholic Church: the Melkite Patriarch of Antioch. The only other prelate that could almost be considered a Byzatine patriarch would be the Major Archbishop of the Ukrainian Catholic Church. The other Eastern patriarchs belonging to various other Eastern Rites. I’m sure you are aware of this though, but I thought I better point that out.
 
It is true that the Pope names bishops for the Eastern churches, outside of the home Patriarchal territory of the particular church.

This is another symptom of the problem all churches have had to face with colonization or migration to new world sites. The Orthodox churches have chosen one way to deal with this issue, the Catholics another.

I quote a Melkite website which touches on the subject:
The authentic Eastern form of Church governance is synodal, that is, the Patriarch governs the Melkite Church together with the Synod or Assembly of Melkite Bishops. The Patriarch exercises executive power and the Synod of Bishops exercises legislative power, similar to the American civil government. That is the reason that all the Melkite Bishops throughout the world gather at Rabweh every year for the annual meeting of the Synod of Bishops. There, under the presidency of the Patriarch, all major decisions affecting the Melkite Church are discussed and enacted.
Code:
   However, the present Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches distinguishes between the powers of the Patriarch and Synod of Bishops inside the patriarchal territory and outside of it; and it expressly states that their powers are exercised validly only inside the patriarchal territory, with certain limited exceptions. The basic reality is that all laws enacted by the Synod and promulgated by the Patriarch are effective inside the patriarchal territory, but for us Melkites in the United States, the only laws that are currently effective are liturgical laws. 

The reason for this distinction is that, from the very earliest times, Patriarchal power or jurisdiction has been subject to a geographical limitation. This restriction, known as the Patriarchal Territory, refers to those regions in which the proper rite of the Church is observed and in which the Patriarch has the right to establish ecclesiastical provinces, eparchies and exarchies. Only the highest authority can change the Patriarchal Territory. The Patriarchal Territory of the Melkite Patriarch is Antioch, All the East, Alexandria and Jerusalem.
I do not consider this an ideal situation, and neither do other Eastern Catholics, we are hoping the situation becomes rectified in the future (many Roman Catholics will think it’s just dandy the way it is) but over time more and more people are migrating out of their home territories and the percentage of the population of these Sui Iuris churches directly under their own Patriarchs is gradually shrinking, a transferal of the population into the administrative authority of Rome is not the best solution we have but the only option at present.

This is actually an improvement (!) over the situation before the establishment of hierarchies by Rome, as the only legitimate bishops in the new world(s) were Latin rite bishops and they had an abysmal record of meeting the needs and properly serving the Eastern Catholics, whom they regarded as just another resource for their building projects. The situation in the past was canonically correct: one city, one bishop. But it was prone to abuse.

I would be happy to see all Byzantine rite churches in North America directly under the supervision and appointments of the Patriarch of Antioch for the Melkites. I doubt that my Ukrainian friends would like it though. Human nature.

Another issue no one ever seems to raise is that there are Latin rite faithful in the traditional home territories of the eastern patriarchs. Canonically these need to be put under the control of the local Patriarchs with Eastern bishops serving as local Ordinaries. The problem for Catholics is that there are multiple traditions emanating from the same regions, primarily Syria and Lebanon and southern India (something the Orthodox do not yet need to concern themselves with) and it really would be a challenge to determine which Eastern bishop would take priority as the local Ordinary, leaving the other equally valid traditions behind!

The fact is, there already is overlapping of jurisdictions in the old world among Catholics. If the Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox (non-Chalcedonians) were to ever resolve their differences (as there is current dialogue to that end it could happen) the Orthodox churches would need to address this very same issue.

{continued}

+T+
 
{continued from post #29}

So now returning to the new world(s) we visit the common Orthodox approach which is also an unacceptable reality, to erect parallel overlapping jurisdictions under multiple foreign Patriarchs and Synods. The strong advantage is the protection of those churches spirtual/liturgical tradtitions from molestation by unsupportive bishops. The negative aspect of this is that it prevents a united witness to the outside world which needs such a witness desperately, (and similar to the Catholic situation) is subject to encourage Phyletism, and violates the Canons of the church.

So what is to be done? In new world territories one solution both the Orthodox and Catholics are considering is new Eastern patriarchs and synods for economic regions or nations, complete with the rights to elevate their own bishops. I don’t think the multiplication of Patriarchs is helpful here, but I would support it if nothing else rears it’s head. A problem is the original Patriarchs in Alexandria, Damascus and Constantinople need and deserve some kind of financial support, a sort of “Apostles Pence” so that they can carry on their own tasks as their local congregations shrink in the Moslem world. We must expect that they would do some receding into the background over time if new Patriarchs in the west and Australasia come to represent the bulk of the faithful.

Yet this will not solve the problem of overlapping jurisdictions across traditions, which will be equally difficult for the Orthodox to contend with if (as I suggested before) they were to make progress with the non-Chalcedonians.

We are all looking for a formula that will work, both now and into the future. What we have today is inadequate for all parties, and I think everyone can recognize this. I believe the Holy Spirit is driving us toward a new ecclesiology, some of us will be kicking and screaming along the way, but it needs to be.
 
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twf:
Father: Thanks for the info. I do not know the inner-workings of the Eastern churches and their arrangements with Rome, but from what I do know, I would say that it is because these particular churches are outside the traditional geographical boundaries of those Eastern churches. .
So one would assme, since as patriarchs there is “equality among equals,” that the Patriarchs of the East would appoint the bishops of the Church of Rome who reside in their traditional geographical boundaries?

I suspect that this is a case where some are “more equal” than others and the Eastern Patriarchs *do not have equal rights * with the Pope on the appointment of bishops in their territories. The bottom line is “Roma rexit” and has no equals.
 
That’s a good point, Father, which Hesychios also raised. That probably should be the case, and Lord willing, it will be eventually. (Either that or the Eastern Churches should appoint their own bishops all around the world, and the Pope continue to appoint Roman bishops thoughout the world as well). This is, however, a matter of discipline, and not doctrine, and could potentially change.
 
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twf:
That’s a good point, Father, which Hesychios also raised. That probably should be the case, and Lord willing, it will be eventually. (Either that or the Eastern Churches should appoint their own bishops all around the world, and the Pope continue to appoint Roman bishops thoughout the world as well). This is, however, a matter of discipline, and not doctrine, and could potentially change.
So? The claimed equality? First among equals at the patriarchal level?
 
I suppose there is no ‘first among equals’ on a practical level in the present state of the Church. Is this a bad thing? Well to an Orthodox or Eastern Catholic mind it may be…so I hope, for ecumenism and to be more faithful to the example of the first millenium, the Church will move in this direction. (Not to undermine the authority of the Holy See, but to grant the Eastern Patriarchs the full dignity their office entails). For us Latin Catholics, the Holy Father IS our Patriarch, so to us it only seems natural that he would appoint our bishops.
 
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twf:
I suppose there is no ‘first among equals’ on a practical level in the present state of the Church. Is this a bad thing? Well to an Orthodox or Eastern Catholic mind it may be…so I hope, for ecumenism and to be more faithful to the example of the first millenium, the Church will move in this direction. (Not to undermine the authority of the Holy See, but to grant the Eastern Patriarchs the full dignity their office entails). For us Latin Catholics, the Holy Father IS our Patriarch, so to us it only seems natural that he would appoint our bishops.
The Orthodox feel a little sorrowful that the regional Churches in the West did not develop into fully autonomous Churches. But what happened was that the Church of Rome, the only see of apostolic origin in the West (apart from maybe Compostela in Spain) did not act like a good midwife and foster her children into adulthood and independence but she kept them firmly tied to her apron strings.

If the opposite had happened, if the local Churches had developed normally, we would now have such venerable churches as the Church of Ireland with an Irish Patriarch in Dublin. A Patriarch in Paris on the chair of Saint Denys and heading an autocephalous Church of France. A Patriarch of Madrid sitting on the cathedra of Saint James.

But with God’s help, this may yet come about as Rome, hopefully, returns to a more Orthodox and New Testamental type of church governance.

Síd ocus soinmige dúib isin blíadnai-seo do·thét!
Peace and happiness to you all in this coming year!
 
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