Church of Christ mom of Catholic child

[Proverbs31woman]

they have been saved by Christ via His extraordinary Mercy

 

[hope]

Indeed, that is why I believe in infant baptism.

How does it translate that they are saved, if they die?

 

[Proverbs31woman]

I respect your belief

 

[MaryT777]

Proverbs 31; it is so good to have you here. Welcome.!~ It’s always good to hear of the beliefs of other and why they believe as such to find common ground in the Faith Christian.

You have been so respectful too of our Faith Catholic.

God bless you and yours.

 

[hope]

I am glad you are here asking questions. It also gives me a chance to understand others. I hope you have found the answer for which you are looking. I never thought of Godparents as being proxies. I guess that is an appropriate word but they are so much more.

 

[phil19034]

I understand that completely, we believe those before the age of consent/understanding…(age depends on child’s understanding) he or she is saved no matter what, whether his or her parent baptized, Christen, or Dedicated the child…including those miscarried, stillborn or worse…aborted
We dedicate our babies…begin bible teaching in “Cradle Roll” (as soon as dedicated…usually 3-6 weeks) …and continue biblical classes for life…till old age death

OK, we Catholic HOPE that God will save those who are not Baptized. But we don’t take chances.

Esp since babies have been baptized for 2000 years. Remember, the Church of the East broke away from the Catholic Church around the year 424 AD. Yet, they have infant Baptism.

So do the Oriental Orthodox who broke way from the Catholic Church around 451 AD.

Infant baptism - Wikipedia

God bless

 

[phil19034]

Also, here are just SOME Early Church Fathers referencing infant baptism:

“He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age”

St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies 2:22:4 circa 189 A.D.

“Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them”

St. Hippolytus, The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 circa 215 A.D.

“Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous”

Origen Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 circa 248 AD

“The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit”

Origen Commentaries on Romans 5:9 circa 248 AD

“As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born”

St. Cyprian of Carthage Letters 64:2 circa 253

“If, in the case of the worst sinners and those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin, except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old death from his first being born. For this very reason does he [an infant] approach more easily to receive the remission of sins: because the sins forgiven him are not his own but those of another”

St. Cyprian of Carthage Letters 64:5 circa 253

 

[ICHTHYS]

The initial answers below are very well written by joeybaggz, maximillian 75 etc.

I like to mention about original sin.

We all were born of original sin due to the fall of Adam and Eve. Therefore, a baby cannot enter heaven in case something happens and they die.

Parents are given authority by God thus commandment 4. Honor your father and mother. This is why, parents are allowed to have their children baptised and the parent’s will is adequate. Catholics believe in 3 types of baptism: Baptism of water/Spirit ; baptism of desire and baptism of blood.

These babies later, when they grow up, can reaffirm their baptismal vows themselves during first holy communion, when they prepare to receive the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist.

 

[phil19034]

we regularly confess our sin PUBLICLY TO GOD and OUR BROTHERS and SISTERS…not silently in a booth…but in front of God to be held by our brothers and sisters not to sin again…

We do that with our venial sins, but not our Mortal sins.

Reason why:

1. for charity & mercy
2. because we view Confession as a Sacrament of Healing and Mercy.

We need the one on one time with the priest when confessing because sometimes we need the counsel. Sin damages our relationship with God, and often also damages our view of ourselves & others. Sometimes the priest needs to give counsel to help the sinner deal with the emotional turmoil & temporal effects of their sins.

While confessing in public can have some value (like holding each other accountable), it can also do lots of damage to the sinner and community. This is why the Catholic Church only does Communal Absolution in very extreme situations (i.e. there is one priest and hundreds of souls on the battle field about to potentially lose their lives. Or there a hundreds or thousands in an area where Christians are being killed and not enough priests to hear all the confessions - like in the 1st century).

Again, just like Infant Baptism, the Church of the East and the Oriental Orthodox Church also have one-on-one confession with a priest.

God Bless

 

[Proverbs31woman]

yes, I understand…that is why our dedicated babies begin bible teaching in cradle roll (age birth-12 months) at age 6 most of our children understand and can give you proper bible verse concerning an issue…ie…sorrowful sadness concerning sin…Psalm 51…Putting on full Amour of God…Eph 6

 

[Wannano]

Proverbs31woman:

We hardly consider it a one time thing either…we teach for life. My husband is a deacon in The Church of Christ and is a also a Messianic Jew, where he attends every Saturday. He speaks at several Messianic services…so we totally understand Jewish Traditions…

We do NOT hold fast to the false notion of once saved always saved… we regularly confess our sin PUBLICLY TO GOD and OUR BROTHERS and SISTERS…not silently in a booth…but in front of God to be held by our brothers and sisters not to sin again…

Very admirable. My use of one time thing was only to contrast some Protestant understanding of baptism with the Catholic tradition of an ongoing process.

The RCC takes seriously Jesus’ words to his apostles to “forgive men’s sins”. So we have the sacrament of reconciliation or penance. We use “the booth” for privacy, believing that the process of confessing one’s sins and receiving absolution (or forgiveness) is private. I don’t know if I could publicly profess all the various type of sin publicly. Would that not lend itself to people seeking retribution if they were wronged and found out in a confessional environment, who harmed them? Like I said, your form is admirable. Thank heaven I’m Catholic. Couldn’t do it your way.
Shalom

LOL, if the Catholic Church is the one started by Jesus, it has changed the form of publicly confessing to making it a private form.

 

[phil19034]

yes, I understand…that is why our dedicated babies begin bible teaching in cradle roll (age birth 12 months) at age 6 most of our children understand and can give you proper bible verse concerning an issue…ie…sorrowful sadness concerning sin…Psalm 51…Putting on full Amour of God…Eph 6 at as young as 2nd or 3rd grade

But what does the dedication do?

You see Catholics believe that Baptism is gift that God gives us. Not something we do for God. Baptism washes us clean from the stain of original sin, which all humans inherit from Adam.

If you are not baptized (either though water, desire, or fire – water being the ordinary form of Baptism) then you are not cleansed from original sin.

Those who are not cleansed from original sin cannot directly enter the Kingdom of Heaven. They can only enter if Christ let’s them in. Again, we all hope and pray that he does. But, it’s also possible that unbaptized children remain forever in a blissful state in Limbo.

HOWEVER, even if Jesus does let in all children who die into Heaven, we also believe that Baptism infuses us with the Holy Spirit, and that the Holy Spirit comes upon us at our Baptism. Why deny a child the Holy Spirit to live inside of them?

Finally, we believe we are sealed with the Holy Spirit upon our Confirmation.

You see, Baptism is the first of three Sacraments of Initiation. These are: Baptism, Confirmation and First Communion

In ancient days, Latin Catholics used to confirm babies & give them First Communion too on the day of their Baptism. Eastern Christians still do (Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox & even Eastern Catholics). But today, Latin Catholics (aka Roman Catholics) typically wait until the child has reached at least the age of reason before administering the last two Sacraments of Initiation. We do this because many Latin Catholics feel that it’s best (not required) for Children to understand what they are doing when they receive communion and are Confirmed.

However, again, Eastern Catholics (who are in full communion with the Pope) typically confirm and give first common to babies with the Baptism. This is what we call a Christening. A Christening is when someone receives Baptism, Confirmation and First Communion on the same day.

So with all that said, what supernatural gifts does your dedication perform?

God Bless

 

[phil19034]

joeybaggz:

Proverbs31woman:

We hardly consider it a one time thing either…we teach for life. My husband is a deacon in The Church of Christ and is a also a Messianic Jew, where he attends every Saturday. He speaks at several Messianic services…so we totally understand Jewish Traditions…

We do NOT hold fast to the false notion of once saved always saved… we regularly confess our sin PUBLICLY TO GOD and OUR BROTHERS and SISTERS…not silently in a booth…but in front of God to be held by our brothers and sisters not to sin again…

Very admirable. My use of one time thing was only to contrast some Protestant understanding of baptism with the Catholic tradition of an ongoing process.

The RCC takes seriously Jesus’ words to his apostles to “forgive men’s sins”. So we have the sacrament of reconciliation or penance. We use “the booth” for privacy, believing that the process of confessing one’s sins and receiving absolution (or forgiveness) is private. I don’t know if I could publicly profess all the various type of sin publicly. Would that not lend itself to people seeking retribution if they were wronged and found out in a confessional environment, who harmed them? Like I said, your form is admirable. Thank heaven I’m Catholic. Couldn’t do it your way.
Shalom

LOL, if the Catholic Church is the one started by Jesus, it has changed the form of publicly confessing to making it a private form.

Did you read what I wrote about the Rite of Public Absolution?

 

[Melissa]

Another book recommendation, Stephen Ray’s Crossing the Tiber, which is part the story of his conversion (maybe a third of the book, if that–there’s lots of footnotes) and massive quotes from Scripture and the early Church on the subject of Baptism and the Eucharist.

I grew up in the Christian Church (we had piano and organ), and in a round-about way, studied my way right into the Catholic Church.

 

[phil19034]

we believe the last statement
“they have been saved by Christ via His extraordinary Mercy”

Yes, I know. However, this is our official teaching regarding this, as per the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1261:

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

 

[phil19034]

Another book recommendation, Stephen Ray’s Crossing the Tiber, which is part the story of his conversion (maybe a third of the book, if that–there’s lots of footnotes) and massive quotes from Scripture and the early Church on the subject of Baptism and the Eucharist.

I grew up in the Christian Church (we had piano and organ), and in a round-about way, studied my way right into the Catholic Church.

I also highly recommend Steve Ray’s book “Upon this Rock”

https://www.amazon.com/Upon-This-Rock-Scripture-Apologetics/dp/0898707234

 

[phil19034]

dedication is exactly what it means…and every child I knew that was dedicated is devoted to God and lives a godly life…as in contrast to my Catholic friends who children who were baptized all live in sin (at least 21 at last count…including my Catholic son in law who married my daughter who demands she practice birth control…and did not let her leave the hospital till she “tied her F’in tubes” …her father and I were appalled…we don’t allow that in our church and if it happened, such a person would be chastized publiclly for that…

OK… fair enough. However, here’s the difference between some protestant Churches and Catholic ones.

Protestant Churches TYPICALLY are filled with people who want to be there.

Catholic Churches are often filled with BOTH people who want to be there and grow up extremely faithful. Plus, people who don’t want to be there.

 

[phil19034]

understand Christian friend…one big issuse I hear from Catholics that make my blood boil is we accept birth control and abortion and are very lax on divorce…please dear brethern, understand some groups such as mine stand with you on these issues…we do not condone birth control for selfish reasons…including NFP and abortion and divorce (and remarriage) are sins…period…

Well, that’s because MOST Protestants are lax on those teachings. But many Catholics who interact a lot, theologically, with Protestants know that some are very orthodox in regards to social teachings.

In regards to NFP, the reason we do not feel NFP is sinful is because the couple is reframing or fasting from sex. However, a NFP couple could develop a sinful mindset if they are not open to life.

However, into today’s age, with all the sinful birth control out there (and misleading pro birth control sex education taught in public schools) the majority of people who use NFP today are open to life.

God Bless

 

[Proverbs31woman]

NFP is not sinful except if used in sinful desires…to deliberately avoid pregnancy even when one is quite ready to recieve children… (ie…prefer travel and career advancement over children)

 

[phil19034]

NFP is not sinful except if used in sinful desires…to deliberately avoid pregnancy even when one is quite ready to recieve children… (ie…prefer travel and career advancement over children)

Right. If their intentions are sinful. However, it might not be mortally sinful like artificial birth control is, since birth control is “Having your cake & eating it too”

Using birth control is not only selfish, but it’s like sticking a middle finger up to God.