Church of Christ question

[akarmitage]

I was talking to someone who is a COC member … But of the very conservative variety.

He told me that the preacher just gives the sermon and doesn’t get to decide what happens within the church. The Elders do that. He said the Bible sets that out and explains the qualifications to be an elder and what their responsibilities are.

Does anyone know where in the Bible it says that?

 

[yellowantphil]

Maybe he was referring to 1 Timothy 3.
1 Timothy 3:2-10 NAB:

Therefore, a bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, temperate, self-controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not aggressive, but gentle, not contentious, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, keeping his children under control with perfect dignity; for if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how can he take care of the church of God? He should not be a recent convert, so that he may not become conceited and thus incur the devil’s punishment. He must also have a good reputation among outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, the devil’s trap.

Similarly, deacons must be dignified, not deceitful, not addicted to drink, not greedy for sordid gain, holding fast to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. Moreover, they should be tested first; then, if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

 

[akarmitage]

So in that passage where they say Bishops … It doesn’t mean Bishop as we use the term? What would the correlation be in the church? His COC has only elders, not deacons and bishops. And what about his assertion that the “preacher” has no authority, that the elders make decisions in consensus?

 

[yellowantphil]

So in that passage where they say Bishops … It doesn’t mean Bishop as we use the term? What would the correlation be in the church? His COC has only elders, not deacons and bishops.

I just checked a few Protestant Bibles, and in the New Living Translation, “bishop” is translated as “elder.” Some other translations say “overseer.” So maybe they apply that passage to their elders, but I’m not (and never was) part of that denomination.

And what about his assertion that the “preacher” has no authority, that the elders make decisions in consensus?

Off the top of my head, I can’t think of any Bible passages that say anything like that. Maybe they just don’t consider their pastor to be an elder?

 

[hizstory]

I have taken part on CoC message boards and in general they do use “overseer” where we would use bishop

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

Does anyone know where in the Bible it says that?

yellowantphil has the right Bible passage for you. As a former member of the CoC (and leader-in-training, unofficially), this passage is the primary basis for their leadership model. They believe the church was established by the apostles who were “elders” in local congregations throughout the known world. ANY male may preach - regardless of whether or not he has been discerned as an elder (they typically elect their own - that is, current elders will determine who is to become a deacon and who will rise from deacon to elder, but that’s just one typical way it’s done). If a man is the “speaker” (the usual preferred term for the one who preaches) and not an elder, he speaks under the direct supervision of the elders present. Even a fellow elder is subject to the others. Preaching does not automatically come with any authority. They will claim that no where in the New Testament (and that, by the way, is the only text that matters for their doctrine) do you see an instance of an elder (bishop) acting alone, thus, there must always be at least 2 in consensus.

But of the very conservative variety.

By the way, there is no other kind! At least, not in my experience.

 

[Big_Dummy]

would not a pastor be a fellow elder? After all, Peter refers to himself as a feloow elder in his letters.

 

[akarmitage]

Thanks Cor ad cor. It’s still very perplexing to me.

 

[hizstory]

would not a pastor be a fellow elder? After all, Peter refers to himself as a feloow elder in his letters.

I dated a girl that belonged to a C of C offshoot and they refused to even use the term “pastor.” The would only refer to him as “brother” or as a minister.

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

would not a pastor be a fellow elder? After all, Peter refers to himself as a feloow elder in his letters.

There’s no such thing as a “pastor” in most CoC’s - that word isn’t found in most translations of the new testament. Typically, the speaker is or has been an elder or at least a deacon. He may be specifically trained as a preacher. The function of pastor belongs to the elders, collectively and almost never individually. I can’t say for certain, but I do believe the speaker/preacher, if “full-time” in that capacity (they don’t have multiple men on a rotating schedule) is permitted to attend most meetings of the elders and weigh in on decisions, but the decisions rest with the elders. If there are multiple preachers/speakers (which happens), then they are not usually in on those leadership meetings.

I’m still friends - on pretty good terms even! - with two “preachers” of local CoC’s. I’m sure they would be open to answering this question more specifically… I’ll have to ask!

 

[akarmitage]

Cor ad Cor, that would be great.

 

[God_is_Good_1]

would not a pastor be a fellow elder? After all, Peter refers to himself as a feloow elder in his letters.

I am also a former member of the churches of Christ (who is now in full communion with the Catholic Church).

Pastor is not generally used as a term within these congregations (often because the role of a preacher and pastor are linked in other denominational groups, but distinct and separate in the churches of Christ), yet the elders do have a pastoral role, as well as a role similar to a Catholic bishop – albeit less formalized. Just as with the Catholic bishop, elders are charged with determining/discerning right doctrine and teaching within that congregation. They also are given an administrative role, charged with upholding and furthering faith in Jesus Christ within the community.

Please bear in mind that there is no central governance (outside of the local congregation) with the churches of Christ. The union of these churches is more like a confederacy than a full communion, in that doctrinal beliefs tend to be quite similar congregation to congregation. But variations in doctrine and practice do exist, depending on how the elders, deacons, and baptized congregants within each local congregation interpret the sacred scriptures. Differences of opinion and interpretation do occur, and sacred scripture is used as the only reliable basis for debate and discussion (though biblical scholarship and theological arguments of Church Fathers are sometimes dragged into the debate, so long as sacred scripture is at the root of the theological debate).

Elders and deacons within the churches of Christ act as a spiritual “board of directors” for the worshiping body, and often hire a preacher/minister who has had at least some training or experience in studying the Scriptures. The elders (bishops, or in Greek: episcopoi) spiritually lead the local congregation, determine its stance on doctrine (based on their understanding of sacred scripture), choose appropriate prophets (mouthpieces, preachers, proclaimers of the Good News of Christ, evangelists), and along with the preacher may baptize those who have come to faith in Christ.

Deacons are often given authority by the elders to oversee the day-to-day upkeep of the congregation – its finances, its building(s) and ground(s), its educational outreach, and its evangelistic efforts.

Hope this helps.

 

[zz912]

They will claim that no where in the New Testament (and that, by the way, is the only text that matters for their doctrine) do you see an instance of an elder (bishop) acting alone, thus, there must always be at least 2 in consensus.

They must have missed the letters of Peter and Paul in the NT. Those were authoritative directions issued on their sole authority.

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

Sorry for the lengthy hiatus from this thread… I had to wait for one of my CoC “pastor” friends to return from a trip.

Here’s our conversation in a nutshell:

Me: “In the Church of Christ, the minister or preacher usually delivers a sermon but does not really have ultimate “authority” over the congregation - that lies with the elders. (Are we on the right track so far?)
Considering that to be true, based on I Timothy 3, why is that? Why does the preacher/minister not have more significant responsibility for shepherding the flock, so to speak? In other words, does the minister consult with the elders in their decision making, etc? (Am I making sense?)”

His response:
“You are correct, and it is a dilema that plagaus many preachers in the Church of Christ! I do believe that Elders have the ultimate watch for the flock… I believe the Christian church does a better job with this, many of them make their Preacher one of the Elders or Pastors.”