Church of Christ teaches Jesus had siblings?

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I wrote, “The Bible makes some things very clear, but others (yes, even baptism and the eucharist) are not so well defined. The logical conclusion I find now is that if it was God’s desire that everyone now worship in exactly the same way, the Bible would provide more explicit detail on how to do that.” And you replied
To jump in…and out…the bible ultimately is not clear if one removes the authority of the Church to interpret it. Hence, 38,000 Christian denominations. Baptism and the Eucharist were clear to everyone for for 1,500 years. The early church fathers attest to this fact. Why fight history, the written Word and oral tradition of the those closest to Christ.
Do you have a recommended first book or two? Looking at the titles, Scripture Matters seems interesting, but maybe there’s a better place to start.
Books…IMHO and I have it in my “about me” section: The St. Ignatius Bible Study Catholic Edition (RSV-CE) for the translation but also the commentary, including commentary by Scott Hahn. It’s on the NT only but the OT is being developed and is available for reading on-line while in progress. It’s the best $30 that you can spend.

Other books depending on your interest:
  • Hail Holy Queen, Hahn (Mary in light of scripture),
  • The Lamb’s Supper, Hahn (the Eucharist in light of Revelation),
  • Rome Sweet Home, Hahn (his conversion story from a Presbyterian minister & anti-Catholic).
Other excellent reads:
  • Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist by Brant Pitre. One has to get this Eucharist down pat…
  • Crossing the Tiber, Stephen Ray (conversion story that started out to be a letter to his father explaining why)
…and the Catechism of the Catholic Church which is available for free on-line.
 
Without arguing against the fact that words like “brother” can have more than one meaning,
'zactly, jrtrent. Exactly.

So 2000 years later, how are we Christians to know which of the “more than one” meanings are assigned to the word “brother” in Scripture…

through the guidance of the Church.

Otherwise, we are left with tens of thousands of differing understandings of the Scriptures, with no authority to discern which is correct and which is just a mangling of the Word of God.
 
I think we can all agree that the most authoritative English translation is the Good News Bible with Deuterocanonicals/Apocrypha (with imprimatur by John Francis Wheaton, Archbishop of Hartford);
Actually, no. We cannot agree on this.

A translation cannot be “authoritative”. It proffers no more authority than the paper upon which it is written.

Authority is a quality that an inanimate object cannot possess.
 
Well yes, I did have the Bible in mind. What I’m thinking is that if all these points of dispute are so terribly important, it would not have needed each individual to be moved by the Holy Spirit for everyone to agree, but simply a more explicit passage in scripture.
Or, a Church to speak authoritatively, as the pillar and foundation of truth.
 
CaptFun responds in RED

Appreciate what you did here Randy. Not nitpicking, just curious about these thought provoking details and the details about them that I don’t yet know. 🙂
This is a document that I did not source very well, and it was done a couple of years ago, so it would be difficult to recreate exactly.

However, the good news is that you can search for each of these folks in the Catholic Encyclopedia right here on catholic.com and read a ton of information about these folks.
 
Similarly, by using other scriptures, we can figure out that James was not a uterine-brother of Jesus.
  1. James, the Lord’s “brother”, is an apostle.
agreed…Paul was also an apostle and so was Barnabas. We don’t have a list of all apostles of the NT period, but we do have a list of the twelve disciples. Although every one of the 12 (save Judas I)was an apostle, not every apostle was one of the 12. All three of the synoptic gospel writers mention the 12 and mention the brothers of the Lord as separate sets of people.

here is Matthew:
Matt 12: While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Matt 13: 54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?

55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
Matt 10 lists the names of the 12, they are disciples and believers. Matt 12 relates part of the story where his brothers, who think that Jesus isn’t right in the head, come with Mary to take custody of Jesus. These brothers are not with the disciples. Matt 13 provides the names of four of the brothers…and just one chapter earlier he distinguished the brothers (outside the house) from the disciples(inside the house).

Here is Mark:

Mark 3: 13 Jesus went up on a mountainside and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him. 14 He appointed twelve[a] that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach 15 and to have authority to drive out demons. 16 These are the twelve he appointed: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter), 17 James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means “sons of thunder”), 18 Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot 19 and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him….
…Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21 When his family** heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”
Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”

33 “Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked.

34 Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”

Mark 6: 2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?

3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

4 But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
as you can see, Mark does the same thing as Matt, though Mark emphasizes that the brothers were not believers. So again, the 12 are identified, they are believers and are with Jesus when the unbelieving brothers come to take custody of Jesus. Shortly after having distinguished between the believing 12 and the unbelieving brothers, Mark provides the names of 4 brothers……having already made a very dramatic distinction between the two groups (in chapter 3), Mark would not (in chapter 6) negate that distinction and list members of the believing 12 as belonging to the other group (of brothers) which have been clearly identified as unbelievers.

Moving on to Luke,… at chapter 6 Luke identifies the 12, and then at chapter 8 relates the story where the brothers are outside and Jesus and his disciples are inside…it is the same story from Matt and Mark that I have provided above and so I won’t repeat it, but you should note that the same distinction exists between the two groups. In addition Luke wrote:
Acts 1: When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James. 14 They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.
Here is another distinction being made between the 12 (now 11) and Jesus’ brethren**
 
Moving to the fourth gospel writer we see that distinction yet again:

John 2: 11 What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.

12 After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples. There they stayed for a few days…

John 6 & 7: 70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.) After this, Jesus went around in Galilee. He did not want[a] to go about in Judea because the Jewish leaders there were looking for a way to kill him. 2 But when the Jewish Festival of Tabernacles was near, 3 Jesus’ brothers said to him, “Leave Galilee and go to Judea, so that your disciples there may see the works you do. 4 No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world.” 5 For even his own brothers did not believe in him.
so here again, we have a gospel writer identifying the 12 and then identifying the brothers as non-believers
  1. There are two apostles named James.
this isn’t accurate….this should be corrected to read: 2. There are two apostles within the 12 who are named James
  1. One James (the brother of John) is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his father is Zebedee.
brilliant
  1. The other apostle named James is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his father is Alpheus.
correction: The other apostle among the 12 who is named James is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his father is Alpheus.
  1. Therefore, neither apostle named James was a uterine brother of Jesus.
correction: 5. Therefore, neither apostle named James from the 12 was a uterine brother of Jesus.

Catholics here have repeatedly ignored the distinction that all four gospel writers make in order to explain away the mention of the brothers of Jesus. All four gospel writers point to three distinct groups of men: the largest is the body called the disciples (this actually includes some women as well), within that largest group is a group of 12 select disciples. The third group described by each of the gospel writers as the brothers of Jesus is not a still smaller group within the 12. The brothers of Jesus are clearly said to be non-believers whilst the 12 are believers. Luke maintains that distinction (listing the brothers separately) even after the brothers become believers. On this thread, Catholics have repeatedly gone to the effort to show that members within the 12 are not the sons of Mary….I view that effort as a ridiculous waste of time since the gospel writers make it clear that the 12 and the brothers are two distinct groups.
 
Radical, can you provide at least one example where any one person (ranging from the 1st century to the protestant reformation) believed what you believe regarding Jesus having blood brothers? Even Martin Luther (father of Protestantism) did not agree with you.
here is an earlier response to Patavium’s similar question:

yes…a number. What seems to be often missed by Catholics when considering the PVof M is that it has three pieces to it:
  1. Ante partum
  2. In partu, and
  3. post partum
Fail to have any one of those three and the PVofM is lost. Terullian denied 2 and 3. Origen likely denied 2. The Helvidians and the Antidicomarianites denied 3. Basil of Caesarea implied that the view that Mary had more children after Jesus “was widely held and, though not accepted by himself, was not incompatible with orthodoxy” (J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines [San Francisco, California: HarperCollins Publishers, 1978], p. 495). Hegesippus, as quoted by Eusebius wrote:
Of the family of the Lord there were still living the grandchildren of Jude, who is said to have been the Lord’s brother according to the flesh.
(Church History by Eusebius, 3:20.1). At 4:22.4 Hegesippus is quoted as saying:
The same author also describes the beginnings of the heresies which arose in his time, in the following words: And after James the Just had suffered martyrdom, as the Lord had also on the same account, Symeon, the son of the Lord’s uncle, Clopas, was appointed the next bishop. All proposed him as second bishop because he was a cousin of the Lord.
…and so the weak “he said “brother” when he meant “cousin” b/c the language he wasn’t using didn’t have a word for cousin” argument can’t even be raised in this case, because the author uses the word for cousin, when he meant cousin.

He refers elsewhere to Symeon, a “cousin of the Lord” (church history of Eusebius, 4:22). We know, then, that Hegesippus understood the differences between the Greek terms for “brother” and “cousin”. He chose “brother”, and added the words “according to the flesh”, to describe Jesus’ sibling named Jude.
 
Just to be clear: there are many uneducated folks here who confuse traditions and customs, with Sacred Tradition.

The above example of an ECF tradition is, of course, quite different from what Catholics understand to be the Word of God: Sacred Tradition.
just to be clear, I know that you make that distinction, but I do not…I distinguish between the canonical works and the non-canonical works b/c the former is reliable and the latter is much less reliable. I do not distinguish between what you call Sacred Tradition and other tradition b/c I don’t view either as possessing a reliabilty that approaches the reliability of scripture. Sacred Tradition then (which includes the PVof M), would not be properly called the Word of God and can be dismissed as invalid…hence the discussion on this thread.
 
the scholars who contributed to Mary in the New Testament see the question as a literary device which echoes the “how’ question in a handful of biblical annunciations…
So scholars(who of course are infallible:rolleyes:) say that it is a literary device. Does that mean that it didn’t actually happen? I find that stance untenable. Your attempt at trying to prove your attack on during birth her virginity remained intact is laughable. Either the birth of Jesus(before, during and after) was miraculous or it was not. BTW I was inquiring into your beliefs not what the Church believes.
but since we are noting what wasn’t mentioned in the gospels, why wasn’t the miraculous birth (through Mary’s ear or otherwise) mentioned? .
Really maybe that the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary was enough of mention for them. After all they were writing to believers who understood that the Church was guided by the Holy Spirit and that not all would be contained in Scripture. It is not a teaching of the Church that it was through Mary’s ear. You are being disrespectful with that comment.
Further, if such a thing happened, then Luke, who refers to Jesus as the one who opened the womb (at 2:23…look for a word for word translation) must not have meant it….yet another instance where you are required to avoid the plain meaning of scripture.
Luke was pointing out that Jesus was first born that is the meaning of the one who opened the womb. It does not address the hymen remaining intact.
or, as the gospels actually indicate, they treat him as an elder brother who isn’t quite right in the head
The translation of that paticular scripture renders it either as friends or relatives
KJV-21 And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.
NAB-21 When his relatives heard of this they set out to seize him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”
Greek -and having heard of it those belonging to Him went out to lay hold of Him for they said He is beside himself. (word for word translation)
These “friends” or “relatives” were not identified as brothers of Jesus. Another place Jesus’ “brothers” give Him advise something only an older brother would do because in that culture it would have been considered disrepectful. John 7 3-4
are you kidding me? I would be more than a little embarrassed to present something like this as a “proof”.
From Post 151
THE son of Mary" (Mk 6:3), not as “A son of Mary”. The Greek expression implies he is her ONLY son. In fact, others in the Gospels are never referred to as Mary’s SONS, not even when they are called Jesus’ “brethren”. If they were in fact her sons, this would be strange usage.
The quotes using similar language are not identifying the families. You would have a point if Jesus had said 42 He brought Simon to Jesus, who looked at him and said, `You are Simon son of John. the brother of Andrew." Than your examples would be the same.
this is probably your best “proof”, but it falls far short of a actual proof.
Falls short? Is that all you have? 🤷
why would they have to be in attendance?
Exactly my point:thumbsup:
the indication is that they were non-believers at that time…
Jesus adhered to the Jewish religion. Their being non-believers (in Jesus not in the Jewish religion) has nothing to do with it. They would have adhered to their obligations and Jesus would not have insulted them nor gone against the Jewish faith.
You should also note that of your proofs:
The subject is Jesus having siblings not Mary’s virginity. The reason the virginity is relevant to the subject is that her vow would negate any siblings.
that is merely your fantasy
WOW! When you can’t refute, use ad hominems
it isn’t the word “until” by itself…it is the grammar involved so that the phrase is best translated: Joseph was not having sex with Mary until… See Ben Witherington III in New Testament History
Until only means a period of time. Since this has already been hashed you know the argument. Provide a definition from a dictionary that has the meaning that you try to force.
actually it does…but that isn’t the actual issue. Mary doesn’t need to have had other children in order to have lost her virginity….sex or a natural childbirth would also have that result (as the dogma is defined)….and given that, the scale tips dramatically against her perpetual virginity.
The thread isn’t about her virginity. Something I agree with you about is that the lack of children does not prove virginity. Sorry you have not presented a case for either her pv or having other children that answers the case for it. The weight is still on the side of for.
 
What seems to be often missed by Catholics
Missed by Catholics, Catholics and catholics? :confused:

Roman Catholics
Eastern Orthodox Catholics
Oriential Orthodox Catholics
Martin Luther Evangelical catholics
John Calvin Evangelical catholics
H. Zwingli Evangelical catholics

Catholics catholics everywhere believing the same for 1,500+ years. AMEN!

And then man comes, 1500+ years later … creates his own man made tradition and twists scriptures…as scripture warns would happen. Forsaking a Church established by Christ…that he sent the Holy Spirit to … to guide in all Truth…until the end of the age.

13 When** the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; **for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

Amen :harp::kissme::highprayer:
 
just to be clear, I know that you make that distinction, but I do not…
Fair enough. Just as long as you do not mistakenly identify as Catholic Tradition that which is only akin to this:


I distinguish between the canonical works and the non-canonical works b/c the former is reliable and the latter is much less reliable.
Actually, if you’re honest, the** only way **you are able to distinguish canonical from non-canonical is if you defer to the authority of the CC. At least, as it concerns the NT canon.

Unless you are able to tell us what Philemon tells us that’s more “reliable” than, say, the Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans?

You know what’s theopneustos because you’ve examined all of the early Christian texts and checked their reliability yourself?

Or do you submit to an outside (infallible) authority to tell you what’s canonical? :yup:
 
A translation cannot be “authoritative”. It proffers no more authority than the paper upon which it is written.

Authority is a quality that an inanimate object cannot possess.
A Google search for the word authoritative gave this information right at the top of the page:

Adjective
1.Able to be trusted as being accurate or true; reliable: “clear, authoritative information”.
2.(of a text) Considered to be the best of its kind and unlikely to be improved upon.

Note that the second definition is specifically about an inanimate object, a text, and that the first uses an inanimate object (information) as an example.
Otherwise, we are left with tens of thousands of differing understandings of the Scriptures, with no authority to discern which is correct and which is just a mangling of the Word of God.
Do those manglings matter? If scripture is unclear enough that it can support either that Jesus had siblings by Joseph and Mary or that He didn’t, then it doesn’t seem to matter any more than the issue of the eating of meats and observance of days Paul wrote about in Romans 14. What scripture is clear about is that Mary was a virgin at least until Jesus was born, that “it is by the power of the Holy Ghost that she has conceived this child; and she will bear a son, whom thou shalt call Jesus, for he is to save his people from their sins.” (Knox Bible) When a person believes that, he is honoring both Christ and Mary, whatever he believes about the other children Mary may have had or not had.
Books…IMHO and I have it in my “about me” section: The St. Ignatius Bible Study Catholic Edition (RSV-CE) for the translation but also the commentary, including commentary by Scott Hahn. It’s on the NT only but the OT is being developed and is available for reading on-line while in progress. It’s the best $30 that you can spend.
Other books depending on your interest:
  • Hail Holy Queen, Hahn (Mary in light of scripture),
  • The Lamb’s Supper, Hahn (the Eucharist in light of Revelation),
  • Rome Sweet Home, Hahn (his conversion story from a Presbyterian minister & anti-Catholic).
Other excellent reads:
  • Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist by Brant Pitre. One has to get this Eucharist down pat…
  • Crossing the Tiber, Stephen Ray (conversion story that started out to be a letter to his father explaining why)
…and the Catechism of the Catholic Church which is available for free on-line.
Thanks for those suggestions. I think I’ll start with Rome Sweet Home and Scripture Matters.
 
True. However, “tradition” is not the same as Sacred Tradition, so you won’t get much mileage out of that.

It’s no struggle at all. What appears to be the struggle is your inability to accept that the NT teaches NOTHING against the PPV of Mary, and this fact has been shown to you again and again.
Radical suffers deeply from denial. It is hard to overcome.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical
fortunately we don’t have to depend on a second century work of fiction and your ability to infer with regard to that critical idea.
As oppose to the opinions of one separated 2,000 years and slinging a relatively modern argument? Speaking of fiction…
 
A Google search for the word authoritative gave this information right at the top of the page:

Adjective
1.Able to be trusted as being accurate or true; reliable: “clear, authoritative information”.
2.(of a text) Considered to be the best of its kind and unlikely to be improved upon.

Note that the second definition is specifically about an inanimate object, a text, and that the first uses an inanimate object (information) as an example.
Jr -

What dictionary are you using? Have to use Merriam-Webster. It is authoritive.

Authorative
a : having or proceeding from authority : official
b : clearly accurate or knowledgeable
— au·thor·i·ta·tive·ly adverb
— au·thor·i·ta·tive·ness noun
 
A Google search for the word authoritative gave this information right at the top of the page:

Adjective
1.Able to be trusted as being accurate or true; reliable: “clear, authoritative information”.
2.(of a text) Considered to be the best of its kind and unlikely to be improved upon.
Fair enough.

But a text, in and of itself, cannot be the final authority. For it relies on a human person in order to understand that which it proclaims.

As such, authority lies with people, not in a book, no matter how holy.
Do those manglings matter?
Absolutely. Sometimes mortally so.

Or do you not believe that the Westboro Baptist Church’s manglings of Scripture (in which they use the Bible to declare that “God laughs when a f*g dies”) is irrelevant?
 
Absolutely. Sometimes mortally so.

Or do you not believe that the Westboro Baptist Church’s manglings of Scripture (in which they use the Bible to declare that “God laughs when a f*g dies”) is irrelevant?
I see your point. I was referring to “manglings” that fell within the realm of differences of opinion that God-fearing, Bible believing people could reach after studying an issue. Ezekiel 33:11, along with numerous other passages, clearly makes Westboro’s concept of a God laughing at the death of sinners to be un-Biblical. I was thinking more along the lines of the various doctrinal issues that separate Presbyterians, Lutherans, Dutch Reformed, General and Particular Baptists, etc. When you read their various systematic theologies in support of the positions they hold, it is obvious that they love the Lord, hold the Bible to be God’s word, and only want to obey Him to the best of their ability. There are differences among Christians about issues that cannot be proven one way or another from scripture. I think this is shown by the work of serious and scholarly men such as in the “Mary in the New Testament” document that has been referenced in this thread. It is on these types of issues that I think we need to show tolerance and charity in our differences. There is an interesting quote in the introduction to an online presentation of three of J. C. Ryle’s biographical sketches that captures what I’m thinking:

“In the light of Ryle’s Calvinistic theological emphasis, his generous and godly attitude to the Arminian Wesley is a joy to read. May more in our day adopt such a godly attitude to servants of God who hold differing doctrinal viewpoints.” biblebb.com/files/christian_leaders.htm
 
s.

Now, in the present instance, the fact is simply this: There was a certain Mary, “the mother of James,” according to St. Luke; the “mother of James and Joses,” according to St. Mark; the mother of James, Joses, Jude and Simon, according to inference from St. Luke and the testimony of Eusebius; in short, the mother of those who are called the brethren of our Lord. This Mary (John xix. 25) was the wife of Cleophas or Alphous, and the sister of Mary, the Lord’s mother.

It seems very strange to me that parents would name 2 of their living daughters with the same name: Mary. Is /was this a common practice in that area?
 
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