Church of Christ teaches Jesus had siblings?

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How Much Tertullian Can You Stand?

Many non-Catholics like to quote one Early Church Father or another to disprove a particular Catholic doctrine, and one such favorite “poster-boy” is Tertullian who began as an orthodox Catholic but wandered into the Montanist heresy later in life. However, those who claim that Tertullian was more Protestant than Catholic need to read the following passages and answer the simple question, “How much Tertullian can you stomach”?

Tertullian on Apostolic Succession

“[The apostles] founded churches in every city, from which all the other churches, one after another, derived the tradition of the faith, and the seeds of doctrine, and are every day deriving them, that they may become churches. Indeed, it is on this account only that they will be able to deem themselves apostolic, as being the offspring of apostolic churches. Every sort of thing must necessarily revert to its original for its classification. Therefore the churches, although they are so many and so great, comprise but the one primitive Church, [founded] by the apostles, from which they all [spring]. In this way, all are primitive, and all are apostolic, while they are all proved to be one in unity” (Demurrer Against the Heretics 20 [A.D. 200]).

“[W]hat it was which Christ revealed to them [the apostles] can, as I must here likewise prescribe, properly be proved in no other way than by those very churches which the apostles founded in person, by declaring the gospel to them directly themselves . . . If then these things are so, it is in the same degree manifest that all doctrine which agrees with the apostolic churches—those molds and original sources of the faith must be reckoned for truth, as undoubtedly containing that which the churches received from the apostles, the apostles from Christ, [and] Christ from God. Whereas all doctrine must be prejudged as false which savors of contrariety to the truth of the churches and apostles of Christ and God. It remains, then, that we demonstrate whether this doctrine of ours, of which we have now given the rule, has its origin in the tradition of the apostles, and whether all other doctrines do not ipso facto proceed from falsehood” (ibid., 21).

“But if there be any [heresies] which are bold enough to plant [their origin] in the midst of the apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the apostles, because they existed in the time of the apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that [their first] bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the apostles or of apostolic men—a man, moreover, who continued steadfast with the apostles. For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter” (ibid., 32).

“But should they even effect the contrivance [of composing a succession list for themselves], they will not advance a step. For their very doctrine, after comparison with that of the apostles [as contained in other churches], will declare, by its own diversity and contrariety, that it had for its author neither an apostle nor an apostolic man; because, as the apostles would never have taught things which were self-contradictory” (ibid.).

“Then let all the heresies, when challenged to these two tests by our apostolic Church, offer their proof of how they deem themselves to be apostolic. But in truth they neither are so, nor are they able to prove themselves to be what they are not. Nor are they admitted to peaceful relations and communion by such churches as are in any way connected with apostles, inasmuch as they are in no sense themselves apostolic because of their diversity as to the mysteries of the faith” (ibid.).

Tertullian on the Real Presence in the Eucharist

“[T]here is not a soul that can at all procure salvation, except it believe whilst it is in the flesh, so true is it that the flesh is the very condition on which salvation hinges. And since the soul is, in consequence of its salvation, chosen to the service of God, it is the flesh which actually renders it capable of such service. The flesh, indeed, is washed [in baptism], in order that the soul may be cleansed . . . the flesh is shadowed with the imposition of hands [in confirmation], that the soul also may be illuminated by the Spirit; the flesh feeds [in the Eucharist] on the body and blood of Christ, that the soul likewise may be filled with God” (The Resurrection of the Dead 8 [A.D. 210]).

(cont.)
 
Tertullian on Auricular Confession

“[Regarding confession, some] flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; and thus they perish along with their own bashfulness” (Repentance 10:1 [A.D. 203]).

Tertullian on Purgatory and Praying for the Dead

“[T]hat allegory of the Lord which is extremely clear and simple in its meaning, and ought to be from the first understood in its plain and natural sense…Then, again, should you be disposed to apply the term ‘adversary’ to the devil, you are advised by the (Lord’s) injunction, while you are in the way with him, 'to make even with him such a compact as may be deemed compatible with the requirements of your true faith. Now the compact you have made respecting him is to renounce him, and his pomp, and his angels. Such is your agreement in this matter. Now the friendly understanding you will have to carry out must arise from your observance of the compact: you must never think of getting back any of the things which you have abjured, and have restored to him, lest he should summon you as a fraudulent man, and a transgressor of your agreement, before God the Judge (for in this light do we read of him, in another passage, as ‘the accuser of the brethren,’ or saints, where reference is made to the actual practice of legal prosecution); and lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation?” Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 35 (A.D. 210).

“All souls, therefore; are shut up within Hades: do you admit this? It is true, whether you say yes or no: moreover, there are already experienced there punishments and consolations; and there you have a poor man and a rich…Moreover, the soul executes not all its operations with the ministration of the flesh; for the judgment of God pursues even simple cogitations and the merest volitions. ‘Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.’ Therefore, even for this cause it is most fitting that the soul, without at all waiting for the flesh, should be punished for what it has done without the partnership of the flesh. So, on the same principle, in return for the pious and kindly thoughts in which it shared not the help of the flesh, shall it without the flesh receive its consolation. In short, inasmuch as we understand ‘the prison’ pointed out in the Gospel to be Hades, and as we also interpret ‘the uttermost farthing’ to mean the very smallest offence which has to be recompensed there before the resurrection, no one will hesitate to believe that the soul undergoes in Hades some compensatory discipline, without prejudice to the full process of the resurrection, when the recompense will be administered through the flesh besides.” Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 58 (A.D. 210).

“As often as the anniversary comes round, we make offerings for the dead as birthday honours.” Tertullian, The Chaplut, 3 (A.D. 211).

“[A] woman is more bound when her husband is dead…Indeed, she prays for his soul, and requests refreshment for him meanwhile, and fellowship (with him) in the first resurrection; and she offers (her sacrifice) on the anniversary of his falling asleep.” Tertullian, On Monogamy, 10 (A.D. 216).

Tertullian on the Necessity of Baptism for Salvation (and the role of Bishops)

[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life” (On Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).

When we are about to enter the water — no, just a little before — In the church and under the hand of the bishop, we solemnly profess that we renounce the devil and his pomps and his angels. Thereupon we are immersed three times (The Crown 3:2 [A.D. 211]).

Tertullian on Baptismal Regeneration

“A treatise on our sacrament of water, by which the sins of our earlier blindness are washed away and we are released for eternal life will not be superfluous… Taking away death by the washing away of sins. The guilt being removed, the penalty, of course, is also removed… Baptism itself is a corporal act by which we are plunged into the water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from our sins” (On Baptism 1:1, 5:6, 7:2 [inter A.D. 200-206]).

+++

If Tertullian is your authority on authentic belief of the Early Church, then I look forward to much fruitful discussion on these and other doctrines.

:tiphat:
 
As we like to proclaim, all truth is Catholic truth.

So to the degree that Tertullian proclaimed the kerygma is the degree that he was consonant with the truth.

To the degree that he divorced himself from the kerygma is the degree that he is wrong. 🤷
Wrong in regards to his Montanist beliefs. What should one call him? Half and half? 🤷
 
Wrong in regards to his Montanist beliefs. What should one call him? Half and half? 🤷
I think we should call him what patristic scholars call him: an early ecclesial writer. 😃

He gives us insight as to the historical movements of Christianity.

But definitely not with regard to the kergyma.
 
That is Jimmy’s opinion and not shared by all.

catholicfaithandreason.org/tertullian-155-245-ad.html
I found your link interesting. I know little of this subject so it is interesting to learn more. This link provided me with the classification of “The Apostolic Fathers” equating it with Church Fathers. I had looked up Tertullian in the Catholic Encyclopedia where they talked about him being a “Latin” Father. When I looked up Apostolic Father he was not listed. When I did a research of Apostolic Father, he was not listed either. Perhaps someone could help me with What the differences are between the apostolic, Latin and ECF(I am assuming that it means Early Church Father). At any rate, it doesn’t seem to be set but rather a debate on Tertullian. Opinions are rarely shared by all.
 
Do not need to be a scholar to recognize the obvious. There is a diffrence between orthodoxy and heterodoxy. Yeah…and if you read a tad more one finds out he later followed a heretical sect.
and if you read you would find the scholarly opinion that Tertullian remained in good standing within the catholic Church at Carthage…it doesn’t take a lot of effort, all you would have had to have done was to search “montanism carthage tertullian” at google books and you would have been able to see what scholars are actually saying…but that doesn’t suit your purposes does it? You find it necessary to go against scholarship and label Tertullian a heretic so that you can try to prop up your claims that the PVof M goes back to the apostles…but the truth of the matter is that Tertullian, a priest in good standing within the catholic Church taught against the PVofM and that didn’t ruffle any feathers, but instead he was viewed as a respected father…it is only once Montanism was later also rejected in the west that Tertullian’s Montanism became a tool (used to defend novelties as apostolic traditions) by those such as you, to dismiss Tertullian’s writings.
What part of Montanist do you not comprehend or like? Yes…up to the point where he became a Montanist. Read some history Radical.
I have…it seems that you aren’t keeping current
Links? Why? For whose gain? Name ONE patristic scholar who denies Tertullian later was a Montanist?
in other words you can’t name a patristic scholar who thinks that Tertullian isn’t a ECF…and if you looked you would find patristic scholars who think he remained a good catholic montanist.
Yes…he is controversial…but the fact he died outside of orthodoxy negates it. Sorry.
no need to apologize for your glaring errors with respect to Tertullian and his status within the catholic Church at the time of his death…I already knew the scholarly position and therefore, I was in no way misled…no harm done
 
I found your link interesting. I know little of this subject so it is interesting to learn more. This link provided me with the classification of “The Apostolic Fathers” equating it with Church Fathers. I had looked up Tertullian in the Catholic Encyclopedia where they talked about him being a “Latin” Father. When I looked up Apostolic Father he was not listed. When I did a research of Apostolic Father, he was not listed either. Perhaps someone could help me with What the differences are between the apostolic, Latin and ECF(I am assuming that it means Early Church Father). At any rate, it doesn’t seem to be set but rather a debate on Tertullian. Opinions are rarely shared by all.
ECF = early church father

Latin Father = ECF from the west writing in Latin instead of Greek

Apostolic Father = the very earliest ECFs (predating Tertullian)
 
Why Stop With Tertullian?

Why do we focus all of our attention on Tertullian when we have a great cloud of witnesses from the Early Church attesting to the Perpetual Virginity of Mary?

Origen

“The Book [the Proto-evangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the firstfruit of virginity” (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]).

“There is no child of Mary except Jesus, according to the opinion of those who think correctly about her.” (Commentary on John 1, 4; PG 14, 32, in Gambero, Mary and the Fathers of the Church, 75.)

Hilary of Poitiers

“Indeed many depraved men give authority to their opinion that our Lord Jesus Christ was known to have brothers (and sisters). While if these were really the sons of Mary and not those of Joseph from a former marriage, never would our Lord at the time of his passion have given Mary to the apostle John to be his mother by saying to both of them, ‘Woman behold your son,’ and to John, ‘Behold your mother,’ unless he were leaving the charity of a son in the disciple for the solace of his now desolate mother.” (Commentary on Matthew, in Buby, Mary of Galilee, III, 134)

Athanasius

“Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary” (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).

“If Mary would have had another son, the Savior would not have neglected her nor would he have confided his mother to another person, indeed she had not become the mother of another. Mary, moreover, would not have abandoned her own sons to live with another, for she fully realized a mother never abandons her spouse nor her children. And since she continued to remain a virgin even after the birth of the Lord, he gave her as mother to the disciple, even though she was not his mother; he confided her to John because of his great purity of conscience and because of her intact virginity.” (“De virginitate,” in Buby, Mary ofGalilee, III, 104)

Epiphanius

“We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit” (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]).

Jerome

“[Helvidius] produces Tertullian as a witness [to his view] and quotes Victorinus, bishop of Petavium. Of Tertullian, I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church. But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. [By discussing such things we] are . . . following the tiny streams of opinion. Might I not array against you the whole series of ancient writers? Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against [the heretics] Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views and wrote volumes replete with wisdom. If you had ever read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man” (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]).

“We believe that God was born of a virgin, because we read it. We do not believe that Mary was married after she brought forth her Son, because we do not read it. . . . You [Helvidius] say that Mary did not remain a virgin. As for myself, I claim that Joseph himself was a virgin, through Mary, so that a virgin Son might be born of a virginal wedlock” (ibid., 21).

Didymus the Blind

“It helps us to understand the terms ‘first-born’ and ‘only-begotten’ when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin ‘until she brought forth her first-born son’ [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, nor did she ever become the Mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin” (The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 386]).

Ambrose

"Behold the miracle of Our Lord’s Mother. She conceived, a Virgin; she brought forth, a Virgin. A Virgin was she when she conceived, a Virgin when pregnant, a Virgin after childbirth: as it is says in Ezekiel: And the gate was shut, and it was not opened for the Lord passed through it.” (“Homily for Christmas,” in Buby, Mary of Galilee, III, 128.)

Pope Siricius I

“You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lord’s body, that court of the eternal king” (Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392]).

Augustine

“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).
 
Originally Posted by Nicea325
Do not need to be a scholar to recognize the obvious. There is a diffrence between orthodoxy and heterodoxy. Yeah…and if you read a tad more one finds out he later followed a heretical sect.
and if you read you would find the scholarly opinion that Tertullian remained in good standing within the catholic Church at Carthage…it doesn’t take a lot of effort, all you would have had to have done was to search “montanism carthage tertullian” at google books and you would have been able to see what scholars are actually saying…but that doesn’t suit your purposes does it?
Uhhhh…Radical…how can one be a Montanist (heretical sect) and remain in good standing? Did Arian remain in good standing with the church? What about the countless of other heretical founders? Exactly…does not take a lot of effort to know one cannot be a heretic and be in good standing. Exactly does not suit your own biased Protestant view: Self-centered,not Christ centered.
You find it necessary to go against scholarship and label Tertullian a heretic so that you can try to prop up your claims that the PVof M goes back to the apostles…but the truth of the matter is that Tertullian, a priest in good standing within the catholic Church taught against the PVofM and that didn’t ruffle any feathers, but instead he was viewed as a respected father…it is only once Montanism was later also rejected in the west that Tertullian’s Montanism became a tool (used to defend novelties as apostolic traditions) by those such as you, to dismiss Tertullian’s writings.
Of course, I forgot. Radical and his expertise of scholars who are never wrong. Spare me the accolades Radical. You act as though you are the only that has read scholars and only understand them. Please!
Quote:
What part of Montanist do you not comprehend or like? Yes…up to the point where he became a Montanist. Read some history Radical.
Radical:
I have…it seems that you aren’t keeping current
And so have I…and? Current? By whose standards? Yours? So-called modern scholars?
Quote:
Links? Why? For whose gain? Name ONE patristic scholar who denies Tertullian later was a Montanist?
Radical:
in other words you can’t name a patristic scholar who thinks that Tertullian isn’t a ECF…and if you looked you would find patristic scholars who think he remained a good catholic montanist.
And in other words you cannot find who denies him being Montanist? Right? Please! I do not need to prove anything to you. Been there done that with countless of Protestants. That game of “prove me wrong” is as old as dirt.
Quote:Nicea325
Yes…he is controversial…but the fact he died outside of orthodoxy negates it. Sorry.
Radical:
no need to apologize for your glaring errors with respect to Tertullian and his status within the catholic Church at the time of his death…I already knew the scholarly position and therefore, I was in no way misled…no harm done
Glaring errors? How comical. Oh yes…I forgot, Radical the expert in the ECF and Catholicism. <<<<>>
 
It would be helpful if you could offer any sources that say James, brother of the Lord and “son of Mary” or “son of Joseph”.
I’ve asked the same thing,:banghead:: but have never gotten an anwser. 🙂
 
I found your link interesting. I know little of this subject so it is interesting to learn more. This link provided me with the classification of “The Apostolic Fathers” equating it with Church Fathers. I had looked up Tertullian in the Catholic Encyclopedia where they talked about him being a “Latin” Father. When I looked up Apostolic Father he was not listed. When I did a research of Apostolic Father, he was not listed either. Perhaps someone could help me with What the differences are between the apostolic, Latin and ECF(I am assuming that it means Early Church Father). At any rate, it doesn’t seem to be set but rather a debate on Tertullian. Opinions are rarely shared by all.
The Apostolic Fathers knew Jesus or one or more of the Apostles personally. They are:

Clement of Rome
Ignatius of Antioch
Irenaeus of Lyons
Polycarp of Smyrna
Justin Martyr

Thus, the Apostolic Fathers provide a bridge between the Apostles and the Early Church Fathers who followed them.
 
To add to the original subject of this thread:

From the fragments of Papias (A.D. 70 - 155) we have a list of Maries and their offspring:

(1.) Mary the mother of the Lord; (2.) Mary the wife of Cleophas or Alphæus, who was the mother of James the bishop and apostle, and of Simon and Thaddeus, and of one Joseph; (3.) Mary Salome, wife of Zebedee, mother of John the evangelist and James; (4.) Mary Magdalene. These four are found in the Gospel. James and Judas and Joseph were sons of an aunt (2) of the Lord’s. James also and John were sons of another aunt (3) of the Lord’s. Mary (2), mother of James the Less and Joseph, wife of Alphæus was the sister of Mary the mother of the Lord, whom John names of Cleophas, either from her father or from the family of the clan, or for some other reason. Mary Salome (3) is called Salome either from her husband or her village. Some affirm that she is the same as Mary of Cleophas, because she had two husbands.
 
To add to the original subject of this thread:

From the fragments of Papias (A.D. 70 - 155) we have a list of Maries and their offspring:

(1.) Mary the mother of the Lord; (2.) Mary the wife of Cleophas or Alphæus, who was the mother of James the bishop and apostle, and of Simon and Thaddeus, and of one Joseph; (3.) Mary Salome, wife of Zebedee, mother of John the evangelist and James; (4.) Mary Magdalene. These four are found in the Gospel. James and Judas and Joseph were sons of an aunt (2) of the Lord’s. James also and John were sons of another aunt (3) of the Lord’s. Mary (2), mother of James the Less and Joseph, wife of Alphæus was the sister of Mary the mother of the Lord, whom John names of Cleophas, either from her father or from the family of the clan, or for some other reason. Mary Salome (3) is called Salome either from her husband or her village. Some affirm that she is the same as Mary of Cleophas, because she had two husbands.
please check out your quote…I believe that it comes from an 11th century Lexicographer…not the Papias of the first and second centuries.
 
The Apostolic Fathers knew Jesus or one or more of the Apostles personally. They are:

Clement of Rome
Ignatius of Antioch
Irenaeus of Lyons
Polycarp of Smyrna
Justin Martyr

Thus, the Apostolic Fathers provide a bridge between the Apostles and the Early Church Fathers who followed them.
The website states
The Fathers of the Church spread the gospel of Jesus Christ, defended the Church in apologetic writing and fought the many heresies of the first six centuries of Christianity. These men, also called Apostolic Fathers, gave special witness to the faith, some dying the death of a martyr.
Is this inaccurate or am I still:confused:
 
Is this inaccurate or am I still:confused:
The article on Wikipedia includes The Didache and the Shepherd of Hermas while leaving out Irenaeus and Justin Martyr. But you see that the number is small.

Since the Didache and the Shepherd are not people but books, I don’t consider them “Fathers” which I think should be reserved for people.
 
please check out your quote…I believe that it comes from an 11th century Lexicographer…not the Papias of the first and second centuries.
I found this for the[,_EN.pdf"] fragments of Papias]("http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/0070-0130,_Papia_Hierapolitanus,Fragmenta[Schaff)

It is listed as number x (10)
X.1764
(1.) Mary the mother of the Lord; (2.) Mary the wife of Cleophas or Alphæus, who was the
mother of James the bishop and apostle, and of Simon and Thaddeus, and of one Joseph; (3.) Mary
Salome, wife of Zebedee, mother of John the evangelist and James; (4.) Mary Magdalene. These
four are found in the Gospel. James and Judas and Joseph were sons of an aunt (2) of the Lord’s.
James also and John were sons of another aunt (3) of the Lord’s. Mary (2), mother of James the
Less and Joseph, wife of Alphæus was the sister of Mary the mother of the Lord, whom John names
of Cleophas, either from her father or from the family of the clan, or for some other reason. Mary
There were other sites that I checked with the same results that this was from Papias.
 
The website states

Is this inaccurate or am I still:confused:
what RC is posting is confusing…here is a book translating the works known as the Apostolic Fathers …simply go to the table of contents…as you can see Randy is listing a couple that aren’t included and not listing a number that are.
 
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