Church of England backs women bishops

[Novocastrian]

It says man not human.

‘Adam’ means man in the sense of mankind. It does not refer to sex.

 

[Novocastrian]

Are you sure we shouldn’t tell it to the Mothers too?

I don’t know of any Mothers in the early Church making the kind of sophisticated theological argument that KP3243 is attempting to shut down by out-of-context proof-texting, but that’s likely to be symptomatic of my less-than-encyclopaedic knowledge of the formation of Christian doctrine. I’m happy to tell it to any Mothers to whom it would apply!

 

[KP3243]

‘Adam’ means man in the sense of mankind. It does not refer to sex.

My Jewish neighbor Moshe, just said what you posted says man not human.

 

[KP3243]

I don’t know of any Mothers in the early Church making the kind of sophisticated theological argument that KP3243 is attempting to shut down by out-of-context proof-texting, but that’s likely to be symptomatic of my less-than-encyclopaedic knowledge of the formation of Christian doctrine. I’m happy to tell it to any Mothers to whom it would apply!

Why can’t it be that simple to follow Jesus’ example?

 

[SyroMalankara]

I don’t know of any Mothers in the early Church making the kind of sophisticated theological argument that KP3243 is attempting to shut down by out-of-context proof-texting, but that’s likely to be symptomatic of my less-than-encyclopaedic knowledge of the formation of Christian doctrine. I’m happy to tell it to any Mothers to whom it would apply!

You restate the same old tired argument that Jesus selected only Jews to be Apostles – so what? They weren’t priests, they were if anything Bishops, or even a different category “Apostle”. None of the Apostles ordained women to priesthood. There’s no evidence of any women being attempted to be ordained priest until about 1960s, somewhere in protestant anglicanism in Sri Lanka or Hong Kong. There was the Collyridian heresy, they ordained priestess and worshipped Mary, but I doubt you were referring to them.

 

[Novocastrian]

Why can’t it be that simple to follow Jesus’ example?

Again, ask the Fathers why they thought it was necessary to come up with a sophisticated christology at the early oecumenical councils.

 

[KP3243]

Again, ask the Fathers why they thought it was necessary to come up with a sophisticated christology at the early oecumenical councils.

Because His divinity was in question.

 

[Novocastrian]

You restate the same old tired argument that Jesus selected only Jews to be Apostles – so what? They weren’t priests, they were if anything Bishops, or even a different category “Apostle”.

If they were Bishops, then they were priests.

If they were an entirely different category, and we’re basing the tradition on the choices made by the Apostles, then its hard to see that as a divine institution of an all-male priesthood rather than a discipline of the Church.

 

[GKC]

You restate the same old tired argument that Jesus selected only Jews to be Apostles – so what? They weren’t priests, they were if anything Bishops, or even a different category “Apostle”. None of the Apostles ordained women to priesthood. There’s no evidence of any women being attempted to be ordained priest until about 1960s, somewhere in protestant anglicanism in Sri Lanka or Hong Kong. There was the Collyridian heresy, they ordained priestess and worshipped Mary, but I doubt you were referring to them.

1944, Hong Kong. Said to be in response to the crisis of WWII.

GKC

 

[Novocastrian]

Because His divinity was in question.

This is like pulling teeth.

Ok, so, the fact that they were able to do so, and we would say guided by the Holy Spirit, during a period of theological controversy shows that simply throwing Matt 18.3 at someone doesn’t always justify the abandonment of theological argument.

 

[KP3243]

I am a woman, I have no idea why people get so bent out of shape women can’t become priests. It’s like they forget we hold the Blessed Mother in higher regards than we do the Apostles.

 

[GKC]

Jeepers! I wonder what good old Henry would have thought about all of this…

Not much.

GKC

 

[KP3243]

This is like pulling teeth.

Ok, so, the fact that they were able to do so, and we would say guided by the Holy Spirit, during a period of theological controversy shows that simply throwing Matt 18.3 at someone doesn’t always justify the abandonment of theological argument.

You criticized me for not being sophisticated in my argument, I don’t need to be, I don’t have a problem with how Jesus set up His Church.

 

[paulrxp]

What is it about offering sacrifice in particular that renders women unsuitable or incapable? After all, the orthodox and catholic doctrine of the sacraments is that Christ is the real priest, and that the ministerial priesthood is just that; priests act as ministers of the one sacrificing priest. You need to give a reason as to what it is that allows a man to stand-in for Christ qua sacrificing priest, and not a woman.
.

Father, Son, Holy Spirit all male. Christ , a male, is married to his Church, a female. God revealed himself to man in the flesh as a male. Christ not becoming man in the flesh would be at odds with the Incarnation.

Christ was “enclosed” within the feminine person just like the liturgical act of the priest is “enclosed” within the feminine sanctuary of the Church(female). The unborn Christ and His Mother, therefore, were the prototype of the liturgical act which Catholics participate in every Sunday.

Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear. (Revelation 19:7-8)

Pope Francis himself said this issue is closed. It is for all time. Saint John Paul II’s declaration in ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS(1994) on female ordination is as close to an infallible teaching as you’re going to get. No current or future Pope will have the power to change this teaching that has always been preserved by our Sacred Tradition.

This is not about power and equality at all. That’s what the secular world wants you to believe. Some of the giants of our Faith. The greatest of Saints and Doctors were women: Catherine of Siena Teresa of Avila Who’s going to argue that women like Mother Theresa reached a level of saintly purity that no man in recent memory will reach during his days on Earth. If that’s not convincing to those who believe women don’t have a prominent role in our Church, remind them with this timeless prayer:

Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

 

[KP3243]

[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

Father, Son, Holy Spirit all male. Christ , a male, is married to his Church, a female. God revealed himself to man in the flesh as a male. Christ not becoming man in the flesh would be at odds with the Incarnation.

Christ was “enclosed” within the feminine person just like the liturgical act of the priest is “enclosed” within the feminine sanctuary of the Church(female). The unborn Christ and His Mother, therefore, were the prototype of the liturgical act which Catholics participate in every Sunday.

Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear. (Revelation 19:7-8)

Pope Francis himself said this issue is closed. It is for all time. Saint John Paul II’s declaration in ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS(1994) on female ordination is as close to an infallible teaching as you’re going to get. No current or future Pope will have the power to change this teaching that has always been preserved by our Sacred Tradition.

This is not about power and equality at all. That’s what the secular world wants you to believe. Some of the giants of our Faith. The greatest of Saints and Doctors were women: Catherine of Siena Teresa of Avila Who’s going to argue that women like Mother Theresa reached a level of saintly purity that no man in recent memory will reach during his days on Earth. If that’s not convincing to those who believe women don’t have a prominent role in our Church, remind them with this timeless prayer:

Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Originally Posted by KP3243
What is it about offering sacrifice in particular that renders women unsuitable or incapable? After all, the orthodox and catholic doctrine of the sacraments is that Christ is the real priest, and that the ministerial priesthood is just that; priests act as ministers of the one sacrificing priest. You need to give a reason as to what it is that allows a man to stand-in for Christ qua sacrificing priest, and not a woman.​

I did not originally post this.

 

[Novocastrian]

My Jewish neighbor Moshe, just said what you posted says man not human.

Ok, let’s do this in more depth.

Reference, re: אדם (adam), from the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon (Hendrickson 2003 re-print of the 1906 edition), p. 9.

First usage - “man, mankind”; gives the sense of a human being in the majority of cases, esp. Gen. 2.5, 7, 8, 15, 16, 18. Exceptions - “seldom” (!) - seem to be Gen. 2.22, 23, 25 (the rib story).

Second usage - “man, mankind” (collectively, i.e. the human race), esp. Gen. 1.26; 9.5-6. Distinctly used for men and women at Gen. 1.27; 5.1-2; Numbers 5.6.

In particular, 5.2 contains

וַיִּקְרָא אֶת-שְׁמָם אָדָם

This seems to settle the debate for me. “And he called their name Adam/man/human.” The plural suffix on שׁם refers to

זָכָר וּנְקֵבָה

“male and female” at the beginning of the verse. It is clearly grammatically inclusive of men and women.

 

[Novocastrian]

I am a woman, I have no idea why people get so bent out of shape women can’t become priests. It’s like they forget we hold the Blessed Mother in higher regards than we do the Apostles.

I agree that it isn’t, and shouldn’t be, an equality issue. The Blessed Virgin occupies the highest place in the Church beneath Christ.

 

[Novocastrian]

Father, Son, Holy Spirit all male. Christ , a male, is married to his Church, a female. God revealed himself to man in the flesh as a male. Christ not becoming man in the flesh would be at odds with the Incarnation.

Christ was “enclosed” within the feminine person just like the liturgical act of the priest is “enclosed” within the feminine sanctuary of the Church(female). The unborn Christ and His Mother, therefore, were the prototype of the liturgical act which Catholics participate in every Sunday.

Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear. (Revelation 19:7-8)

Pope Francis himself said this issue is closed. It is for all time. Saint John Paul II’s declaration in ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS(1994) on female ordination is as close to an infallible teaching as you’re going to get. No current or future Pope will have the power to change this teaching that has always been preserved by our Sacred Tradition.

This is not about power and equality at all. That’s what the secular world wants you to believe. Some of the giants of our Faith. The greatest of Saints and Doctors were women: Catherine of Siena Teresa of Avila Who’s going to argue that women like Mother Theresa reached a level of saintly purity that no man in recent memory will reach during his days on Earth. If that’s not convincing to those who believe women don’t have a prominent role in our Church, remind them with this timeless prayer:

Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

The latter part of your post is a straw man. I’m not arguing that it’s an equality or power issue at all. See my latest post.

Christ was “enclosed” within the feminine person just like the liturgical act of the priest is “enclosed” within the feminine sanctuary of the Church(female). The unborn Christ and His Mother, therefore, were the prototype of the liturgical act which Catholics participate in every Sunday.

This bit, however, doesn’t seem to make any sense. First, you’re arguing that the masculine nature of the priesthood excludes women, but the feminine nature of the Church includes men. You need to say why this is the case.

Second, you need to say why the unborn Christ and his mother are the prototype of the liturgical act, and why this is normative re: sex and the priesthood. You can’t just assert it. It’s equivalent to my just making up, on the spot a claim like, “Christ was enclosed within the feminine person of his Mother, just like the Eucharist is enclosed in the body of the Christian. Therefore only women can receive the Eucharist.” It’s nonsense! It doesn’t follow!

 

[Seraphim73]

Russian Orthodox tell Archbishop of Canterbury: ordain women bishops and you can forget about unity

They were warned a year ago. Now unity is a complete impossibility.

 

[KP3243]

We also can’t ignore Jesus the Bridegroom. This explains it better than I can.
brantpitre.com/~brant243/jesus_bridegroom_single_cd_outline.pdf