Church of England backs women bishops

[GKC]

Strike that, then.

Jon

Probably.

GKC

 

[phil19034]

The Tablet is a Catholic weekly newspaper like the Nazi SS were a peace-loving German synagogue.

Exactly. Catholic Culture.org has the Tablet listed on their “red” (dangerous) list.

catholicculture.org/search/searchResults.cfm?querynum=1&searchid=1385648&showCount=1&CFID=3763997&CFTOKEN=74445696

1.Fidelity: Danger!
2.Resources: Good
3.Useability: Excellent

Strengths
None Reported.
Weaknesses
•Fidelity: Editorials/articles show more support for dissenting theologians and heterodoxy than for the Magisterium Example(s)
•Fidelity: Contributing authors include Richard McBrien, Joan Chittister, and Andrew Greeley
•Fidelity: The Tablet has sponsored a lecture by John Cornwell, author of Hitler’s Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII
•Fidelity: Father Jacques Dupuis - Debate (with most of the space given to the pro-Dupuis side)

I would not recommend reading this publication.

God Bless.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Hey, maybe it will spur Ruth Glendhill and friends to cross the Channel, she seems to be already there!

 

[johnnyc176]

Well, this is one of the saddest things I’ve ever read.

This decision only puts more space between Anglican and Catholic communions. This will never, ever, be accepted by the CC.

Maybe, at some distant time in the future science will find a way that men can become pregnant. I mean is it fair that men should be denied this privilege?

Not really sure how or why this affects the Catholic Church except of course more prayers for those that are falling further from the Truth. C of E female bishops will be just as valid as their male ones…which is to say not valid, right?

 

[SyroMalankara]

Sorry, I’m a little slow. Are you saying you agree with this decision or are you saying that this decision validates your leaving?

I think the Anglicans have been off track for decades now, each vote just affirms how far from Catholicism/Orthodoxy they are. The farther they go officially, the more their Tradition minded will be open to converting to one of the Apostolic Church.

 

[chimo]

When the Church of England began to ordained women the Apostolic orders of the Church will soon become the same as the Protestant Churches. You lose whatever Apostolic orders you have when you begin to ordain women and certainly when you ordain them as Bishops. The fact is God will treat these orders simply as a Lay ministry. That is why we (especially the Catholic and Eastern Churches) cannot confer orders to women. The grace is never imputed to women. So if a legitimate Orthodox Bishop or even the Pope went to ordain a woman there would be no grace at all imputed in such an act. You can’t ordain women for the simple reason that no such Grace of the Holy Spirit is given in any ordination. It just impossible to ordain women. It is impossible to continue the Apostolic succession. When any Sacramental Church will do this, it will just shut down in time its Sacramental power towards a regulated lay ministry. All of what the Church of England is doing is creating more this Protestant ministry. There is great power in the Sacraments especially in Holy Communion. Yet this power must be administered and unleashed only through the hands of a Sacramental priest which is male. Whenever a woman is celebrating Holy Communion even if it was in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches the bread and wine will still be bread and wine. We never receive the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ if we attend to a Holy Communion service presided by a woman. The fact is the Church of England may still had retained her Apostolic orders when she left the Church of Rome. The fact is if these Orders were retained they are now disappearing fast with these ordinations of women.

 

[liturgyluver]

There was never any argument that the Church of England would not introduce Women Bishops. The reasons why it failed previously was the provisions for those who had theological objections to women Bishops were felt to be too weak, rather than an objection in principle.

One of the differences between the Church of England and the other Anglican provinces is that the new provisions allow parishes to have episcopal oversight from a male priest if they have theological objections to a woman priest. I believe that in TEC and elsewhere, the introduction has been made unconditionally.

 

[SteveVH]

This decision only puts more space between Anglican and Catholic communions. This will never, ever, be accepted by the CC.

Maybe, at some distant time in the future science will find a way that men can become pregnant. I mean is it fair that men should be denied this privilege?

Not really sure how or why this affects the Catholic Church except of course more prayers for those that are falling further from the Truth. C of E female bishops will be just as valid as their male ones…which is to say not valid, right?

And aside from the question of validity of the priesthood in general within the Church of England, when I think about it this problem was already in existence when they allowed the female priesthood. This is a logical conclusion to that decision.

 

[losh14]

I don’t see as much of a flight to Anglican Rite churches, with Anglican parishes becoming Catholic, as we saw previously. This is a much smaller impact than ordaining women priests. We may even see some go from the Catholic parishes to Anglican Communion churches as they embrace the priesthood of women.

 

[SteveVH]

I think the Anglicans have been off track for decades now, each vote just affirms how far from Catholicism/Orthodoxy they are. The farther they go officially, the more their Tradition minded will be open to converting to one of the Apostolic Church.

Thanks.

 

[SyroMalankara]

It’s only a matter of time. The strategy has been played out over and over… if there is a vocal minority, shut them up with “alternative oversight”. 5 years pass, “alternative oversight” is unacceptable prejudice, after all “we’ve had female deacons/priests/bishops/whatever for X years and nothings fallen apart”. Traditionalists yell and scream, an even small minority, since more and more depart to continuing, Catholic and Orthodox, or other denominations; alternative oversight is squashed… next agenda…

 

[SyroMalankara]

I don’t see as much of a flight to Anglican Rite churches, with Anglican parishes becoming Catholic, as we saw previously. This is a much smaller impact than ordaining women priests. We may even see some go from the Catholic parishes to Anglican Communion churches as they embrace the priesthood of women.

Oh let’s hope! That vocal faction really needs to be Anglican!

 

[JonNC]

This decision only puts more space between Anglican and Catholic communions. This will never, ever, be accepted by the CC.

There are a few ELCA folks I know, one of whom posts here, that I have been trying to convince of this fact, but that space began with the ordination of women in the first place.

Maybe, at some distant time in the future science will find a way that men can become pregnant. I mean is it fair that men should be denied this privilege?

:bigyikes: Forget it. Not interested.

Jon

 

[GKC]

There was never any argument that the Church of England would not introduce Women Bishops. The reasons why it failed previously was the provisions for those who had theological objections to women Bishops were felt to be too weak, rather than an objection in principle.

One of the differences between the Church of England and the other Anglican provinces is that the new provisions allow parishes to have episcopal oversight from a male priest if they have theological objections to a woman priest. I believe that in TEC and elsewhere, the introduction has been made unconditionally.

That was true under the Episcopal Visitors (Flying Bishops) provision set up when the first women were given clerical collars in the CoE. I am not sure what provisions are in place under this decision, to do the same thing, but a number of opponents of the idea had stated that they would, this time, abstain and not vote against the move, saying there was adequate provision for protection of those who were opposed to the idea. Given the function of a bishop, I can’t imagine what such provisions would entail.

GKC

 

[SteveVH]

The fact is if these Orders were retained they are now disappearing fast with these ordinations of women.

Great point!

 

[liturgyluver]

That was true under the Episcopal Visitors (Flying Bishops) provision set up when the first women were given clerical collars in the CoE. I am not sure what provisions are in place under this decision, to do the same thing, but a number of opponents of the idea had stated that they would, this time, abstain and not vote against the move, saying there was adequate provision for protection of those who were opposed to the idea. Given the function of a bishop, I can’t imagine what such provisions would entail.

GKC

There are fresh provisions under the current decison, but I am not sure how it will work in practice. My understanding is that the Catholic wing are far more comfortable with the provisions than the evangelicals:

Provisions for dissenters are contained in a House of Bishops Declaration. Dissenting parishes will be able to ask their diocesan bishop to make arrangements for them to be cared for by a male bishop. In addition, when a vicar leaves, they may ask for a male vicar to be appointed. The diocesan bishop will make arrangements after conversation with the parish.

 

[GKC]

There are fresh provisions under the current decison, but I am not sure how it will work in practice. My understanding is that the Catholic wing are far more comfortable with the provisions than the evangelicals:

Provisions for dissenters are contained in a House of Bishops Declaration. Dissenting parishes will be able to ask their diocesan bishop to make arrangements for them to be cared for by a male bishop. In addition, when a vicar leaves, they may ask for a male vicar to be appointed. The diocesan bishop will make arrangements after conversation with the parish.

Which leaves open questions. What provision can be made for those who cannot receive from a priest ordained by a female bishop? Or what would be the attitude of the orthodox to a male bishop who ordained females? A suitable shepherd?

GKC

 

[liturgyluver]

Which leaves open questions. What provision can be made for those who cannot receive from a priest ordained by a female bishop? Or what would be the attitude of the orthodox to a male bishop who ordained females? A suitable shepherd?

GKC

Complex indeed. I will ask my Anglo-Catholic mates and try and make sense of it!

 

[GKC]

It’s only a matter of time. The strategy has been played out over and over… if there is a vocal minority, shut them up with “alternative oversight”. 5 years pass, “alternative oversight” is unacceptable prejudice, after all “we’ve had female deacons/priests/bishops/whatever for X years and nothings fallen apart”. Traditionalists yell and scream, an even small minority, since more and more depart to continuing, Catholic and Orthodox, or other denominations; alternative oversight is squashed… next agenda…

It would not surprise me. But the alternate oversight for the orthodox, under the previous scheme, worked for 20 years. To the extent it worked, to be sure.

GKC

 

[Novocastrian]

The Tablet is a Catholic weekly newspaper like the Nazi SS were a peace-loving German synagogue.

While I agree that the Tablet is awful, that’s just the most horrendous and inappropriate comparison to draw. Aside from the complete lack of charity displayed, the trivialisation of anti-semitism and crimes against humanity is something Christians ought to be working against. I hope you retract this comparison.