Church of England backs women bishops

[ezeekl]

Quote:
Originally Posted by recentrevert
It seems that God is mocking the Anglican religion and showing it for what it is. The more absurd the C. of E. becomes the more sincere Anglicans with be motivated to search for the truth.

That’s an interesting point of view. Do you think it likely that God would do that?

I don’t know but one has to wonder what is the next step for the COE???

 

[James82]

To those who may not know,

Please do not confuse all Anglicans with the CofE. The worldwide TAC is NOT in communion with them.

Some scorn and look down on the term ‘Continuing Anglican’, but I feel it is a very accurate term. Anglicans that did not abandon the Deposit of Faith as set down by St. Paul had NO CHOICE but to come out of ‘mainline Anglicanism’.

It is the CofE and many of her sister Anglican Churches that fell afoul, not us. Truly they are the ones that ‘left’.

Also of note, the Anglican Tradition does not function the same ecclesiastically as the Roman Church does. Anglican bodies are autonomous within each country. So for example: If the Anglican Church of South Africa decides to start ordaining giraffes, no other Anglican body in the world has a say in that.

However, the TAC has formed a college of bishops so that (God willing) this sort of nonsense cannot happen again.

 

[James82]

Because then it was much deader and was falling apart even faster

Why not?

I’m happy for you in that case, although I don’t think much of your joy in gaining adherence at the expense of others. My own experience is that all the conservative Anglican splitoff groups are consumed by continual schism and infighting. But I’m happy if that is ceasing to be the case.

I agree–also I share your difficulties with Roman liturgy.

Edwin

Hi Contarini,

Perhaps I gave the wrong impression in my statement regarding parishes coming over to the TAC. They are not ‘poached’ in any sense. The last parish to join came to the Canadian Archbishop requesting to be under his jurisdiction. Apparently some very funny things were going on under their ‘priest’.

 

[GKC]

Hi Contarini,

Perhaps I gave the wrong impression in my statement regarding parishes coming over to the TAC. They are not ‘poached’ in any sense. The last parish to join came to the Canadian Archbishop requesting to be under his jurisdiction. Apparently some very funny things were going on under their ‘priest’.

Lots of funny stuff going on in the motley world of Anglicanism. As Contarini knows.

GKC

 

[Seraphim73]

I find your post to be offensive. I forgive you but you may wish to proceed further with civility in mind.

Thank you.

I intended no offense. Simply making the point that women can’t be bishops regardless of what the pope says or doesn’t say.

 

[ezeekl]

I intended no offense. Simply making the point that women can’t be bishops regardless of what the pope says or doesn’t say.

That is akin to saying that deacons can not be regardless of what the Apostles said. It is a basic denial of church authority and the substitution of one’s own ideas or opinions as an alternate standard because apparently, in the COE, women can become bishops; your opinion not withstanding.

 

[Elizium23]

That is akin to saying that deacons can not be regardless of what the Apostles said. It is a basic denial of church authority and the substitution of one’s own ideas or opinions as an alternate standard because apparently, in the COE, women can become bishops; your opinion not withstanding.

The Church of England has no authority to ordain women as bishops as that authority was not granted by Christ to anyone. That is not mere opinion, that is infallible Truth.

The Church of England indeed currently suffers from a complete lack of apostolic succession and can’t even ordain men to the episcopate at this point in time, but that is a distinctive issue.

In a similar vein, the United States of America has no authority to “marry” men to men or women to women, but it is trying really hard to do so. Attempting to redefine marriage cannot have good results and attempting to redefine the priesthood is no different. Both will end in ruin.

 

[seanman611]

Any Catholic who thinks that the Church of England approving women bishops is going to cause the church to “die” is completely out of their mind. You may be able to say that it is one small factor taken together with many factors that has caused some Anglican decline in some Western countries. However, it LOL silly to think Anglicans are going to just disappear due to women’s ordination to the episcopate.

I will never understand the level of vitriol that some Roman Catholics have when it comes to their Anglican brothers and sisters. It seems like some of you are literally foaming at the mouth with hatred and are just waiting to jump on the Anglican hate wagon. It seems that some of you look forward to any sort of Anglican decline. The only other faith/person that comes close to raising so much ire from Catholics is Martin Luther.

If we really want to point fingers with laughter and ridicule, then how about we point and laugh at the massive failure that is the Anglican Ordinariate? I am willing to bet that we have had more people join the Episcopal Church from the Roman Catholic Church over the last year, than the Ordinariate has taken from Anglicans since its inception. The Church of England is going nowhere and the Ordinariate will get virtually nothing from this and continue its slide into irrelevancy.

Also, why you continue to hold up you magisterium and what the church “officially” teaches, it may interest you that there are a number of Catholic parishes in my neck of the woods that are “affirming” of non-celibate homosexuals. The bishop knows about these parishes and remains quiet. Some of you guys may enjoy pointing your fingers at Anglicans, but I can assure you that the grass in Rome is not nearly as green as many you think.

 

[Elizium23]

I am sorry if you perceive vitriol from my keyboard but I have quite high respect for Anglicanism and other forms of mainline Protestantism, but this respect comes from their adherence to the Deposit of Faith, and my disagreements stem from their slide into heterodoxy. I can assure you that I would have similar words if this thread were about the Orthodox view of divorce and remarriage, yet I hold the Orthodox in particularly high esteem because of their preservation of faith and tradition.

Christ promised that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church. He did not promise that twigs or branches would not fall from the tree and be burned in everlasting fire. The majority of Anglicanism seems to be headed in its general direction away from the narrow path as traditions are dropped and beliefs are shed like so much excess baggage. Anglicanorum Coetibus was a prudent gambit to recover and preserve the traditions which are important while retaining the Deposit of Faith untarnished. The Ordinariates might be considered a failure in numbers by some, but I see it as the nucleus of renewal, in a similar way as Mass in the Extraordinary Form is now viewed seven years on. Both communities are gaining momentum, and I don’t know about the impetus for those who wish to attend the EF, but the impetus for those who would join an Ordinariate will only become stronger over the years.

 

[SteveVH]

Also, why you continue to hold up you magisterium and what the church “officially” teaches, it may interest you that there are a number of Catholic parishes in my neck of the woods that are “affirming” of non-celibate homosexuals. The bishop knows about these parishes and remains quiet.

First of all a Catholic parish has no authority on its own so even if true (a big IF) it does not affect Catholic teaching on the matter. And if you are going to make statements such as this you had better be ready to back it up with some evidence. Please explain how you know that the bishop knows about these parishes and remains quiet? Do you know the bishop? Have you spoken to him? What do you have other than hearsay?

 

[GKC]

Any Catholic who thinks that the Church of England approving women bishops is going to cause the church to “die” is completely out of their mind. You may be able to say that it is one small factor taken together with many factors that has caused some Anglican decline in some Western countries. However, it LOL silly to think Anglicans are going to just disappear due to women’s ordination to the episcopate.

I will never understand the level of vitriol that some Roman Catholics have when it comes to their Anglican brothers and sisters. It seems like some of you are literally foaming at the mouth with hatred and are just waiting to jump on the Anglican hate wagon. It seems that some of you look forward to any sort of Anglican decline. The only other faith/person that comes close to raising so much ire from Catholics is Martin Luther.

If we really want to point fingers with laughter and ridicule, then how about we point and laugh at the massive failure that is the Anglican Ordinariate? I am willing to bet that we have had more people join the Episcopal Church from the Roman Catholic Church over the last year, than the Ordinariate has taken from Anglicans since its inception. The Church of England is going nowhere and the Ordinariate will get virtually nothing from this and continue its slide into irrelevancy.

Also, why you continue to hold up you magisterium and what the church “officially” teaches, it may interest you that there are a number of Catholic parishes in my neck of the woods that are “affirming” of non-celibate homosexuals. The bishop knows about these parishes and remains quiet. Some of you guys may enjoy pointing your fingers at Anglicans, but I can assure you that the grass in Rome is not nearly as green as many you think.

I would have no idea what the relative figures are, on shifts to/from Rome or Canterbury. But the Ordinariate is doing what it was intended to do: provide a lifeline to those Anglicans who have no home in Anglicanism any longer, for this reason or that, in a manner which, if it follows the stated rules, will provide for a continuing home for those Anglicans who can affirm that which Rome requires to be affirmed, in a more permanent structure than was possible under the Pastoral Provision. Any speculation as to how many Anglicans might make the move was speculation and not motivation.

GKC

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Any Catholic who thinks that the Church of England approving women bishops is going to cause the church to “die” is completely out of their mind. You may be able to say that it is one small factor taken together with many factors that has caused some Anglican decline in some Western countries. However, it LOL silly to think Anglicans are going to just disappear due to women’s ordination to the episcopate.

I will never understand the level of vitriol that some Roman Catholics have when it comes to their Anglican brothers and sisters. It seems like some of you are literally foaming at the mouth with hatred and are just waiting to jump on the Anglican hate wagon. It seems that some of you look forward to any sort of Anglican decline. The only other faith/person that comes close to raising so much ire from Catholics is Martin Luther.

If we really want to point fingers with laughter and ridicule, then how about we point and laugh at the massive failure that is the Anglican Ordinariate? I am willing to bet that we have had more people join the Episcopal Church from the Roman Catholic Church over the last year, than the Ordinariate has taken from Anglicans since its inception. The Church of England is going nowhere and the Ordinariate will get virtually nothing from this and continue its slide into irrelevancy.

Also, why you continue to hold up you magisterium and what the church “officially” teaches, it may interest you that there are a number of Catholic parishes in my neck of the woods that are “affirming” of non-celibate homosexuals. The bishop knows about these parishes and remains quiet. Some of you guys may enjoy pointing your fingers at Anglicans, but I can assure you that the grass in Rome is not nearly as green as many you think.

Fully agree that any call for or prediction that the Church will collapse is both unfortunate and unfaithful. An insult to God.

 

[Elizium23]

Fully agree that any call for or prediction that the Church will collapse is both unfortunate and unfaithful. An insult to God.

I likewise agree.

 

[seanman611]

First of all a Catholic parish has no authority on its own so even if true (a big IF) it does not affect Catholic teaching on the matter.

No “ifs” about it, rather it is a FACT that these parishes are gay affirming and celebrate non-celibate homosexuality. I personally know a gay couple that goes there and they talked to the priest about their 30 year relationship before they started going to this parish. The priest welcomes them and communes them and assured them the bishop “has bigger problems.”

And if you are going to make statements such as this you had better be ready to back it up with some evidence. Please explain how you know that the bishop knows about these parishes and remains quiet? Do you know the bishop? Have you spoken to him? What do you have other than hearsay?

LOL, how could he not know? He has many parishes that do this in my area and EVERYBODY knows that they are gay affirming. Furthermore, the parishes are listed on every gay affirming Christian and Catholic gay affirming websites. They don’t even attempt to hide it! It would stretch reason and logic to say that he may not know. If he somehow doesn’t know (which I don’t see as being possible, as the priest said that he had bigger problems), then what a horrible and completely clueless bishop!

 

[Elizium23]

Another thread which is slipping into tu quoque. Keep in mind that the topic of this thread is the Church of England. Keep in mind that Catholics do not consider this a Church at all but an ecclesial community. These are the parameters for a thread here in the Non-Catholic Religions forum.

Furthermore, the minor activities of a couple rogue parishes is far removed from the activities of the highest levels of hierarchy in any organization. We are not talking about a rogue Anglican bishop attempting to ordain a woman. We are talking about the leadership institutionalizing this heresy.

 

[seanman611]

I am sorry if you perceive vitriol from my keyboard but I have quite high respect for Anglicanism and other forms of mainline Protestantism, but this respect comes from their adherence to the Deposit of Faith, and my disagreements stem from their slide into heterodoxy. I can assure you that I would have similar words if this thread were about the Orthodox view of divorce and remarriage, yet I hold the Orthodox in particularly high esteem because of their preservation of faith and tradition.

Christ promised that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church. He did not promise that twigs or branches would not fall from the tree and be burned in everlasting fire. The majority of Anglicanism seems to be headed in its general direction away from the narrow path as traditions are dropped and beliefs are shed like so much excess baggage. Anglicanorum Coetibus was a prudent gambit to recover and preserve the traditions which are important while retaining the Deposit of Faith untarnished. The Ordinariates might be considered a failure in numbers by some, but I see it as the nucleus of renewal, in a similar way as Mass in the Extraordinary Form is now viewed seven years on. Both communities are gaining momentum, and I don’t know about the impetus for those who wish to attend the EF, but the impetus for those who would join an Ordinariate will only become stronger over the years.

Not at all, a good and faithful Catholic must believe that the RCC is fullness of faith and that Anglican order are invalid. My issue is that posters seem like they take pleasure in the supposed misfortunes or follies of other communions. Anglicans, and Episcopalians, are frequent targets of such vitriol. However, I would want to make sure that my own churches backyard was clean before bashing the Anglicans.

I hope people don’t take me as being overly sensitive, but you just don’t see very many Anglicans doing this with regards to Catholics on their forums.

 

[seanman611]

Another thread which is slipping into tu quoque. Keep in mind that the topic of this thread is the Church of England. Keep in mind that Catholics do not consider this a Church at all but an ecclesial community. These are the parameters for a thread here in the Non-Catholic Religions forum.

Most Anglicans don’t really obsess over what Rome declares about our church or what Rome declares about our orders. I just find it shocking how much Catholics obsess over all things Anglican.

Furthermore, the minor activities of a couple rogue parishes is far removed from the activities of the highest levels of hierarchy in any organization. We are not talking about a rogue Anglican bishop attempting to ordain a woman. We are talking about the leadership institutionalizing this heresy.

I don’t think it’s heresy, so I would have to disagree with you on that. Also, if it makes you feel better thinking that this type of thing is “minor” and only happens in a very small amount of Catholic parishes, then by all means think that. I can only say that if things got so bad in the Anglican Church that I had to leave, I certainly wouldn’t look to Rome as a solution to heterodoxy and liberalism. Many Anglicans are finding better homes in Orthodoxy and confessional Lutheranism.

 

[SteveVH]

No “ifs” about it, rather it is a FACT that these parishes are gay affirming and celebrate non-celibate homosexuality. I personally know a gay couple that goes there and they talked to the priest about their 30 year relationship before they started going to this parish. The priest welcomes them and communes them and assured them the bishop “has bigger problems.”

Very well, I will take you at your word, but it is irrelevant. What does a rogue Catholic priest and an inattentive Catholic bishop who are violating the teachings of the Church have to do with the CoE ordaining women?

 

[seanman611]

Very well, I will take you at your word, but it is irrelevant. What does a rogue Catholic priest and an inattentive Catholic bishop who are violating the teachings of the Church have to do with the CoE ordaining women?

Actually, it is very important and has a lot to do with this conversation. The Anglican Ordinariate was brought up multiple times as being a way for Anglicans to be faithful to the traditional faith (homosexuality, women’s ordination, etc.), while coming into the fullness of the Catholic faith. I see calls all of the time on here for Anglicans to come “home.” If the RCC is being positioned as being a home to faithful Anglicans, then we need to evaluate that claim and look at what is going on in the RCC. If we are going to frame the argument around the RCC being a good home because the official teachings say “this” and the official position is “that”, then we must evaluate that claim. You can chalk it up to a rogue priest and uninterested bishop if you want, but these types of things can be found in a lot of places in the American Catholic Church. Outside of the mainline churches, Catholic Churches are statistically listed as having the most “gay affirming” parishes.

As an Episcopalian, we have many heterodox bishops and priests, however, our “official” teachings on most of these heterodox matters remain unchanged and remain quite traditional. If official teachings and what the church believes on paper isn’t being enforced, then why should I care what the church officially teaches? There is no guarantee that an Anglican leaving the Anglican Communion for the Catholic Church is going to escape the problems of rampant liberalism and secularism. When I say that I wouldn’t join the Catholic Church in order to escape liberalism and secularism, it makes me quite sad that that is the situation. Many Anglicans that I’ve spoken to on the matter feel like it would be switching one headache for another headache.

I guess the lesson here is that no church is perfect and anybody that hastily leaves a church due to a certain issue is likely to find that same issue in other churches or they will find a whole host of other issues. Many Anglicans have been very disappointed by the Ordinariate and what their experiences have been like in the Catholic Church. Some have even come back to the Communion. Furthermore, I think that any disgruntled Catholic leaving for the Anglican Communion is bound to be disappointed as well.

I think that caution and realistic expectations are in order for anybody considering Anglicanism or Catholicism.

 

[SteveVH]

Actually, it is very important and has a lot to do with this conversation. The Anglican Ordinariate was brought up multiple times as being a way for Anglicans to be faithful to the traditional faith (homosexuality, women’s ordination, etc.), while coming into the fullness of the Catholic faith. I see calls all of the time on here for Anglicans to come “home.” If the RCC is being positioned as being a home to faithful Anglicans, then we need to evaluate that claim and look at what is going on in the RCC. If we are going to frame the argument around the RCC being a good home because the official teachings say “this” and the official position is “that”, then we must evaluate that claim. You can chalk it up to a rogue priest and uninterested bishop if you want, but these types of things can be found in a lot of places in the American Catholic Church.

I have never understood those who measure the authenticity and sanctity of Church by those who violate the principles it espouses.