Church of England bishops reject lifting opposition to same-sex marriage

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INDEPENDENT: "Church of England bishops have rejected the idea of changing its opposition to same-sex marriage. The House of Bishops said there is “little support for changing the Church of England’s teaching on marriage” that it is between one man and one woman.

A new report, following two years of internal discussion, does however say the church needs to adopt a “fresh tone and culture of welcome and support”. The Rt Rev Graham James, Bishop of Norwich, said at a press conference that the church should not “adapt its doctrine to the fashions of any particular time”.

“We hope the tone and register of this report will help to commend it, though we recognise it will be challenging reading for some,” said Rev James, who will present the report to the General Synod on 15 February.

“This is no last word on this subject. For there are very different views on same-sex relationships within the church, and within the house of bishops, mainly based on different understandings of how to read scripture.”

FULL ARTICLE LINK BELOW

**Any thoughts? I just saw a news spot on this where a lot of the gay and lesbian community are upset as they felt they were misled by the Church of England with false promises.
**
independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/church-of-england-reject-same-sex-marriage-house-of-bishops-gene-lift-opposition-homosexuality-lgbt-a7549906.html
 
I am glad to see that there is still some moral fiber left in the C of E.
 
This shows the Holy Ghost still works within the CofE in spite of the amount of times they have wondered away from God’s path in recent years (e.g. women’s ordination). The Church of England is still a lot closer to the truth than say the Episcopalian Church in the US.
 
SAVINGRACE said:
INDEPENDENT: "Church of England bishops have rejected the idea of changing its opposition to same-sex marriage. The House of Bishops said there is “little support for changing the Church of England’s teaching on marriage” that it is between one man and one woman.

A new report, following two years of internal discussion, does however say the church needs to adopt a “fresh tone and culture of welcome and support”. The Rt Rev Graham James, Bishop of Norwich, said at a press conference that the church should not “adapt its doctrine to the fashions of any particular time”.

“We hope the tone and register of this report will help to commend it, though we recognise it will be challenging reading for some,” said Rev James, who will present the report to the General Synod on 15 February.

“This is no last word on this subject. For there are very different views on same-sex relationships within the church, and within the house of bishops, mainly based on different understandings of how to read scripture.”

FULL ARTICLE LINK BELOW

**Any thoughts? I just saw a news spot on this where a lot of the gay and lesbian community are upset as they felt they were misled by the Church of England with false promises. **

independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/church-of-england-reject-same-sex-marriage-house-of-bishops-gene-lift-opposition-homosexuality-lgbt-a7549906.html
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More double speak, in my opinion. The “Bishops” reject, the presbyters “implement” if they so choose (and many do), and most of the laity support. Soon the Bishops approve, presbyters must implement or face expulsion, and laity will accept (or leave).
 
SyroMalankara said:
More double speak, in my opinion. The “Bishops” reject, the presbyters “implement” if they so choose (and many do), and most of the laity support. Soon the Bishops approve, presbyters must implement or face expulsion, and laity will accept (or leave).
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What you describe as happening “soon” sounds to me utterly unlike the way the Church of England behaves.
 
Picky_Picky said:
What you describe as happening “soon” sounds to me utterly unlike the way the Church of England behaves.
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It’s a far piece away from me, over the sea, and I have trouble seeing it, in detail, even if I care to look, but it sounds like what I think happens, with respect to innovation in doctrine/practice in the CoE. How does that look from your perspective?
 
Sounds good at the moment yet I can’t help but feel the COE will eventually capitulate to modern times and bless same sex attraction. I hope to God that I am mistaken.
 
GKC said:
It’s a far piece away from me, over the sea, and I have trouble seeing it, in detail, even if I care to look, but it sounds like what I think happens, with respect to innovation in doctrine/practice in the CoE. How does that look from your perspective?
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It looks to me thusly:

The cry often goes up (especially in places like this) “OK the CofE says X but, just you see, soon it will be saying Y”. I don’t know why people seem to get satisfaction from alleging this. “Ok the CofE says you will not be forced to accept the ministry of deaconesses (1862) or female deacons (1985) or female priests (1992) or the oversight of female bishops (2014) — but soon you will be forced to knuckle under or leave”. T’aint true. Hasn’t happened. That’s not what the CofE does.

What has happened is that the CofE has preserved space in the church for those who dissent from whatever the mainstream may be. Of course if you disagree with the dissenters you can say this is just the CofE being wishywashy and spineless. If you agree with the dissenters you can, it seems, always say “soon” the dissenters will be ejected or whatever. Truth is, though, that what is happening is that the CofE, as England’'s church, tries to encompass as much as possible of England’s Christianity. That’s what is happening in the current “conversations” about homosexuality.
 
Picky_Picky said:
It looks to me thusly:

The cry often goes up (especially in places like this) “OK the CofE says X but, just you see, soon it will be saying Y”. I don’t know why people seem to get satisfaction from alleging this. “Ok the CofE says you will not be forced to accept the ministry of deaconesses (1862) or female deacons (1985) or female priests (1992) or the oversight of female bishops (2014) — but soon you will be forced to knuckle under or leave”. T’aint true. Hasn’t happened. That’s not what the CofE does.

What has happened is that the CofE has preserved space in the church for those who dissent from whatever the mainstream may be. Of course if you disagree with the dissenters you can say this is just the CofE being wishywashy and spineless. If you agree with the dissenters you can, it seems, always say “soon” the dissenters will be ejected or whatever. Truth is, though, that what is happening is that the CofE, as England’'s church, tries to encompass as much as possible of England’s Christianity. That’s what is happening in the current “conversations” about homosexuality.
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Why is there so much space and yet fewer and fewer members?:
theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/12/church-of-england-attendance-falls-below-million-first-time
The number of people attending Church of England services each week has for the first time dropped below 1 million – accounting for less than 2% of the population – with Sunday attendances falling to 760,000.

One would think - from a political perspective - that allowing so many “spaces” for “dissent” from the “mainstream”, there would be no room to move around. The numbers mentioned in that link are far from ideal – the entire CoE now has less weekly attendance nationwide than one diocese in a place like Cleveland.
 
SyroMalankara said:
Why is there so much space and yet fewer and fewer members?:
theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/12/church-of-england-attendance-falls-below-million-first-time
The number of people attending Church of England services each week has for the first time dropped below 1 million – accounting for less than 2% of the population – with Sunday attendances falling to 760,000.

One would think - from a political perspective - that allowing so many “spaces” for “dissent” from the “mainstream”, there would be no room to move around. The numbers mentioned in that link are far from ideal – the entire CoE now has less weekly attendance nationwide than one diocese in a place like Cleveland.
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I was not suggesting that the CofE was being successful in the numbers game. I was suggesting that your characterisation of the CofE’s motivation and character was inaccurate.
 
Picky_Picky said:
I was not suggesting that the CofE was being successful in the numbers game. I was suggesting that your characterisation of the CofE’s motivation and character was inaccurate.
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Of course it’s worth pointing out that the National Secular Society will revel in the fact that the benchmark headline. They use the whole of UK population when Scotland, Wales and Ireland have their own Anglican churches. If you benchmark church attendance against membership then it is a much less depressing picture, and of course as the CofE does not have weekly obligation for mass, the numbers attending church will be higher over the year. It is a similar picture with Catholic church in England and Wales where 1.2 million attend but out of 5 million Catholics, mass attendance is 24%, and over 40% in London, but the NSS will interpret it very differently. At the last census 59% of the UK declared itself as some Christian denomination.
 
liturgyluver said:
Of course it’s worth pointing out that the National Secular Society will revel in the fact that the benchmark headline. They use the whole of UK population when Scotland, Wales and Ireland have their own Anglican churches. If you benchmark church attendance against membership then it is a much less depressing picture, and of course as the CofE does not have weekly obligation for mass, the numbers attending church will be higher over the year. It is a similar picture with Catholic church in England and Wales where 1.2 million attend but out of 5 million Catholics, mass attendance is 24%, and over 40% in London, but the NSS will interpret it very differently. At the last census 59% of the UK declared itself as some Christian denomination.
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Yes, I agree that NSS figures need to be seen for what they are: propaganda. There is a tendency, I suspect, among some commentators to overestimate the proportion of atheists (and certainly of secularists) in the population. On the other hand there is little doubt in my mind that in the West faith has been declining with a “melancholy, long, withdrawing roar” ever since Arnold wrote those words 150-odd years ago. That doesn’t seem to me to be a good reason, however, for rubbishing the good intentions of Christians.

What surprises me is that people in places like this are so keen to badmouth the Church of England when (a) it is such a valuable and a admirable institution and (b) what good relations exist between the CofE and the RCC in England, and very specially between their leaders.
 
Picky_Picky said:
Yes, I agree that NSS figures need to be seen for what they are: propaganda. There is a tendency, I suspect, among some commentators to overestimate the proportion of atheists (and certainly of secularists) in the population. On the other hand there is little doubt in my mind that in the West faith has been declining with a “melancholy, long, withdrawing roar” ever since Arnold wrote those words 150-odd years ago. That doesn’t seem to me to be a good reason, however, for rubbishing the good intentions of Christians.

What surprises me is that people in places like this are so keen to badmouth the Church of England when (a) it is such a valuable and a admirable institution and (b) what good relations exist between the CofE and the RCC in England, and very specially between their leaders.
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I weep (with restraint) that I have to think sorrowful things about the CoE. But so it is.

OTOH, I am closer to worse institutions, over here.

Ah, well.
 
GKC said:
I weep (with restraint) that I have to think sorrowful things about the CoE. But so it is.

OTOH, I am closer to worse institutions, over here.

Ah, well.
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I know, but I still hope it is a case of
*
Hamlet: What, look’d he frowningly?
Horatio: A countenance more in sorrow than in anger.*
 
GKC said:
For those who walk Dover Beach, yes.

Ah, well.
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Just to support my point about the broad tolerance of the CofE, you may like to know that the traditionalist (in terms of women’s ordination) Philip North, whose installation as a suffragan bishop in 2015 was welcomed by conservatives in the church (and many others: he is much admired), was this week named as the new diocesan Bishop of Sheffield. No sign there of those of his beliefs being “soon” forced into line.
 
Picky_Picky said:
Just to support my point about the broad tolerance of the CofE, you may like to know that the traditionalist (in terms of women’s ordination) Philip North, whose installation as a suffragan bishop in 2015 was welcomed by conservatives in the church (and many others: he is much admired), was this week named as the new diocesan Bishop of Sheffield. No sign there of those of his beliefs being “soon” forced into line.
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Crafty, those apostates. I take the long view. I’ll be watching.

Is there any practical and functioning equivalent of the Episcopal Visitors still extant? For those for whom apostolic succession, and thus validity of sacraments, is an issue, it’s a vital point.
 
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