Church of England 'on the margins of extinction', analyst claims

[Picky_Picky]

Some hints of schadenfreude in this thread, and some folk viewing this as a Cautionary Tale:

When Nurse informed his Parents, they
Were more Concerned than I can say:—
His Mother, as She dried her eyes,
Said, “Well—it gives me no surprise,
He would not do as he was told!”
His Father, who was self-controlled,
Bade all the children round attend
To James’ miserable end,
And always keep a-hold of Nurse
For fear of finding something worse.

Assuming that, in this case, Nurse is Catholicism, I offer my guess that the demise of the Church of England would be much regretted by the Catholic hierarchy in England (and, as it happens, by me). Fortunately such an outcome seems unlikely.

 

[GKC]

Some hints of schadenfreude in this thread, and some folk viewing this as a Cautionary Tale:

Assuming that, in this case, Nurse is Catholicism, I offer my guess that the demise of the Church of England would be much regretted by the Catholic hierarchy in England (and, as it happens, by me). Fortunately such an outcome seems unlikely.

And some folk enjoying Belloc.

 

[TK421]

I am not positive, but I think the Anglican church in Africa is still fairly strong and the bishops have remained conservative. I am not sure I believe these statistics either.

Africa in general is going to be more conservative than their European counterparts. This has already caused tensions though. In Africa, what you have are Anglican parishes that sprung up from the evangelization of the Anglican British in the early 20th century, and these African parishes are following the teachings that were given to them by the Anglicans of the earlier decades, except of course those teachings have mutated in contemporary Britain to better match the surrounding culture. So what you have is a very uncomfortable Anglican communion, where the Anglicans on the home aisle have departed from their own teachings, which the Anglicans in some places abroad continue to follow.

Imagine the different Catholic dioceses in places like Germany where they have all-but unofficially departed from the Holy See, except it’s reversed, and the Vatican has departed from its own teaching (which is metaphysically impossible, but we’re pretending), but awkwardly, many dioceses are still faithful to it. That is what it is like in the Anglican communion right now.

 

[Contarini]

I think I understand what you are saying now. I misunderstood you as saying something more like this:

It makes no sense to say that
the CofE will become extinct in terms of actually following the 39 Articles
before people stop attending.

Well, that makes more sense but probably isn’t true in the C of E. It probably is true in the Episcopal Church, where almost no one follows the Articles now. In the C of E the evangelical wing is the strongest and healthiest right now. They generally like the Articles. They have a much more strained relationship with the Prayer Book, which to an Episcopalian seems entirely backwards

But now I understand what you mean by “membership”, which I completely understand. And you’re right.

Right. I’m thinking of folks who think church is basically for infant baptisms, weddings, and funerals.

Nevertheless, what you say makes me think the Anglican Communion (well, in Europe) will, what’s little’s left of it, cease to be Christian in any meaningful sense - even if the congregations do still meet, for whatever reason.

I don’t know why what I say would make you think this.

What I said, and what I repeat, is that the kind of Anglicanism that is not meaningfully Christian is less significant in the Anglican scene than it was when I became an Anglican 17 years ago.

What do Broad Episcopalians do on Sunday, if anything?

As I said, I’m not sure the term “Broad” means much any more, since functionally practically everyone left in the Episcopal Church is “Broad Church,” at least broadly defined.

I would not, myself, use “Broad Church” to mean “people who don’t believe anything.” In fact, the original Broad Church has significantly shaped not only Anglicanism but even Catholicism. A statement like “the doors of hell are locked from the inside,” for instance, is the result of serious engagement with 19th-century Broad Church challenges to traditional ideas about hell. George MacDonald, who was Broad Church, was a huge influence on C. S. Lewis, who is not generally thought of as a “liberal” by most people.

So let’s not write the Broad Church off.

Episcopalians, pretty universally, use either the 1979 BCP or the inclusive-language “trial liturgies” found in “Enriching Our Worship.” So the more liberal Episcopalians would differ from Catholics in worship mostly in avoiding “exclusive” language–but this is by no means universal at this point. A couple of parishes don’t use the Nicene Creed, but they are very much the exception. Perhaps the flagship liberal parish in the Episcopal Church, is St. Gregory of Nyssa in San Francisco. That church’s website will answer your question better than anything else, I think.

Edwin

 

[liturgyluver]

In the C of E the evangelical wing is the strongest and healthiest right now.

The strength of the Evangelical wing (in particular some of the large charismatic churches and their plants) in the CofE often gets exaggerated. Granted they have some very large and high prominent churches, but there are many Anglo-Catholic Churches which have congregations just as large - ministering to their faithful and parishes - which get overlooked. My nearest Anglo-Catholic church has recently added a 9.15 Sung Eucharist to its existing 8am BCP, 10.30am High Mass 5.30pm Mass, and Evensong to accommodate growing numbers.

In fact, the last study I saw suggested that the traditional low-church and central churchmanship parishes which were more in decline.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Perhaps the flagship liberal parish in the Episcopal Church, is St. Gregory of Nyssa in San Francisco. That church’s website will answer your question better than anything else, I think.

Edwin

Edwin, why do you think that St Gregory Nyssa in San Francisco is the flagship liberal parish? It is inclusive, yes. But so are the majority of Episcopal parishes in the country. It is rich with music and liturgical practices, most of which are centered in Eastern rites. The level of scholarship is strong and its founding priests are well versed in liturgy, internationally recognized. The art, architecture, and iconography of the building reflect the nature of the community. It was built intentionally for the way the parish creates worship.

It is spiritually alive and quite beautiful. People from all across the world visit to see how this community comes together.

I wonder if all these factors create what you call a liberal parish. Innovative, yes. But not quite balloons and guitars and Kumbaya moments of worship so often exhibited.

 

[Contarini]

The strength of the Evangelical wing (in particular some of the large charismatic churches and their plants) in the CofE often gets exaggerated. Granted they have some very large and high prominent churches, but there are many Anglo-Catholic Churches which have congregations just as large - ministering to their faithful and parishes - which get overlooked. My nearest Anglo-Catholic church has recently added a 9.15 Sung Eucharist to its existing 8am BCP, 10.30am High Mass 5.30pm Mass, and Evensong to accommodate growing numbers.

In fact, the last study I saw suggested that the traditional low-church and central churchmanship parishes which were more in decline.

I’m happy to hear that Anglo-Catholics are doing better than the common reports indicate.

Edwin

 

[GKC]

I’m happy to hear that Anglo-Catholics are doing better than the common reports indicate.

Edwin

I’m mildly surprised, myself.

 

[Contarini]

Edwin, why do you think that St Gregory Nyssa in San Francisco is the flagship liberal parish? It is inclusive, yes. But so are the majority of Episcopal parishes in the country. It is rich with music and liturgical practices, most of which are centered in Eastern rites. The level of scholarship is strong and its founding priests are well versed in liturgy, internationally recognized. The art, architecture, and iconography of the building reflect the nature of the community. It was built intentionally for the way the parish creates worship.

It is spiritually alive and quite beautiful. People from all across the world visit to see how this community comes together.

I wonder if all these factors create what you call a liberal parish. Innovative, yes. But not quite balloons and guitars and Kumbaya moments of worship so often exhibited.

Well, first of all I wouldn’t define guitars and Kumbaya as liberal. I think the fact that you do is typically Episcopalian (and to some extent also Catholic). I think of them as things evangelicals do.

But more to the point, I was holding up St. Gregory’s as an example of “liberalism” or “broad Church” in the contemporary Episcopal context precisely because it appears (from what I can tell online and from reports of those who’ve been there) to be vibrant and spiritually alive. While I disagree with liberalism as I’m defining it, I was not using it simply as a slur or a synonym for “not believing in anything.” I was trying to counter that stereotype of liberalism by pointing to St. Gregory’s.

I think you may overstate how typical St. Gregory’s is even now. Their practice of not using the Nicene Creed liturgically, for instance, is not generally followed. (To be clear, for people reading this–this doesn’t mean that they deny the truths found in the Nicene Creed, although their rationale does imply that the distinction between those who accepted the Creed and those who didn’t was “schismatic.”) Or, again, their policy of offering communion to the unbaptized, while fairly common these days, is far from universal. And, of course, while most parts of the Episcopal Church are now “inclusive” in their attitude to sexually active gays, not all are. Even those who are wouldn’t necessarily have an icon of Harvey Milk. These are some of my reasons for using the term “flagship liberal.” That is to say, insofar as there’s still a “Broad Church” as distinct from the rest of the Episcopal Church, St. Gregory’s is a good place to see what that looks like. But of course, as I said, most of the Episcopal Church today is “Broad Church,” insofar as that term still has meaning.

Edwin

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Well, first of all I wouldn’t define guitars and Kumbaya as liberal. I think the fact that you do is typically Episcopalian (and to some extent also Catholic). I think of them as things evangelicals do.

But more to the point, I was holding up St. Gregory’s as an example of “liberalism” or “broad Church” in the contemporary Episcopal context precisely because it appears (from what I can tell online and from reports of those who’ve been there) to be vibrant and spiritually alive. While I disagree with liberalism as I’m defining it, I was not using it simply as a slur or a synonym for “not believing in anything.” I was trying to counter that stereotype of liberalism by pointing to St. Gregory’s.

I think you may overstate how typical St. Gregory’s is even now. Their practice of not using the Nicene Creed liturgically, for instance, is not generally followed. (To be clear, for people reading this–this doesn’t mean that they deny the truths found in the Nicene Creed, although their rationale does imply that the distinction between those who accepted the Creed and those who didn’t was “schismatic.”) Or, again, their policy of offering communion to the unbaptized, while fairly common these days, is far from universal. And, of course, while most parts of the Episcopal Church are now “inclusive” in their attitude to sexually active gays, not all are. Even those who are wouldn’t necessarily have an icon of Harvey Milk. These are some of my reasons for using the term “flagship liberal.” That is to say, insofar as there’s still a “Broad Church” as distinct from the rest of the Episcopal Church, St. Gregory’s is a good place to see what that looks like. But of course, as I said, most of the Episcopal Church today is “Broad Church,” insofar as that term still has meaning.

Edwin

I am pondering on two separate issues here - one being how a parish church worships liturgically and two being how the people within that parish wrestle with - and perhaps define themselves - theologically.

Broad Church for me is much more a liturgical style. The Episcopal Church today IS mostly that, I believe. It’s Eucharistically focused, as opposed to 50 years ago when one went to Morning Prayer on a Sunday and had Holy Communion once a month.

St Gregory’s is WAY outside the Broad Church definition in that it is quite innovative, as I mentioned earlier. No, no Nicene Creed, nor even General Confession. No BCP at all.

Theological churchmanship is a different matter entirely. It doesn’t really equate with liturgical style in my mind.

The Church of England may be a bit different in that Anglo-Catholic and Evangelical parishes are pretty self-defining, both liturgically and theologically. The Broad Church parish, in my experience, tends to be the liberal one in the middle. I’m thinking of one of my favorites - St James Piccadilly in London. Quite liberal theologically, inclusive in every way, socially minded, and beautiful liturgies. I would be quite content in that parish.

 

[MacBP]

From what I understand, the CoE is a fairly diverse Church consisting of various factions on different trajectories. Churches following the Alpha Program, in particular, are said to be doing well. I suspect the extreme progressive end of the CoE is not (if the Canadian equivalent in the United Church of Canada is any indication). I would be, frankly, surprised if the CoE was extinct any time soon although it probably won’t be long before its endangered. I would doubt that Christians of any stripes will have any degree of influence in the UK for centuries but I do expect you’ll see pockets of this group and that sticking around.

 

[7_Sorrows]

From what I understand, the CoE is a fairly diverse Church consisting of various factions on different trajectories. Churches following the Alpha Program, in particular, are said to be doing well. I suspect the extreme progressive end of the CoE is not (if the Canadian equivalent in the United Church of Canada is any indication). I would be, frankly, surprised if the CoE was extinct any time soon although it probably won’t be long before its endangered. I would doubt that Christians of any stripes will have any degree of influence in the UK for centuries but I do expect you’ll see pockets of this group and that sticking around.

I had forgotten about the Alpha Program. I remember doing that many years ago after I had returned the Episcopal church after being a non-practicing Christian for many years. That was an excellent program.

 

[Glomung]

This has been said since immediately post-WW2, with C.S. Lewis.

Some believe the three World Wars (among other things) were the straws that broke the back of Europe’s faith. The pews became thinner after Napoleon, they were half empty after WW1, and they became three quarters empty after WW2. The catastrophic damage & suffering wrecked the population’s idea of Divine Providence and Divine Benevolence. They turned solely to their own ingenuity to solve the problem of evil.

When people look for the causes of calamity they are loathe to look at the evil within themselves.

 

[7_Sorrows]

When people look for the causes of calamity they are loathe to look at the evil within themselves.

Good point!

 

[LoyalViews]

From what I understand, the CoE is a fairly diverse Church consisting of various factions on different trajectories. Churches following the Alpha Program, in particular, are said to be doing well. I suspect the extreme progressive end of the CoE is not (if the Canadian equivalent in the United Church of Canada is any indication). I would be, frankly, surprised if the CoE was extinct any time soon although it probably won’t be long before its endangered. I would doubt that Christians of any stripes will have any degree of influence in the UK for centuries but I do expect you’ll see pockets of this group and that sticking around.

The United Church of Canada is a union of some Methodist, some Presbyterian, and Congregationalist churches - hardly Anglican at all . The United Church is very Wesleyan in theology, but Wesley himself would probably disown them for their rampant and disgraceful liberalism.

The equivalent in Canada is the Church of England in the Dominion of Canada, known as the Anglican Church of Canada as well. They are too, heading in the same direction as the Church of England.

 

[Murmurs]

The United Church of Canada is a union of some Methodist, some Presbyterian, and Congregationalist churches - hardly Anglican at all . The United Church is very Wesleyan in theology, but Wesley himself would probably disown them for their rampant and disgraceful liberalism.

The equivalent in Canada is the Church of England in the Dominion of Canada, known as the Anglican Church of Canada as well. They are too, heading in the same direction as the Church of England.

Following thread with interest, but I just wanted to say that I am always sceptical of statements like “Wesley/Luther/Cranmer/St Peter would not have approved of X” - even Jesus, to be honest. I think it is quite impossible how any of these men (it is always men, of course…) would have articulated their faith and ideas had they lived today. Obviously the essence of the message (above all of Christ Himself) would be the same but can we say for certain that the ideas Wesley had would have been expressed the same way today, and more particularly what their views would have been about ‘rampant and disgraceful’ liberal practices which were not remotely on any of their horizons? Ideas might be constant but the cultural and social context they occur in influences how they are articulated.

I think the issue with the CofE, and ACC, and whoever - most churches in the developed world - have to grapple with isn’t trying to seem socially relevant with ordaining women, having more 21st-century views on homosexuality, or whatever…it’s that God Himself and the message delivered by his Son, doesn’t seem very relevant today; so I’m not sure either the doctrinally rigid (I mean that in a good way) approach of the Catholic Church, or one of flexibility (broadly the Anglican approach), is much good. In my experience which admittedly isn’t of every church of every hue in the Church of England, the ones that are doing best are the ones that have least to do with religion at all.