Church of England

[Novocastrian]

Wonder why no one ever brings up John Wycliffe? I think he had more to do with the Church of England than Henry.

Really? I’d quite strongly disagree! There seems to be very little historical evidence of links between the early reformers in the Church of England and the Lollards, and indeed between Wycliffe himself and subsequent Lollardy. Wycliffe’s major influence was on Hus and the Bohemians; Luther and the Lutherans were the greatest influence on the earliest reformers. Seems ironic, really! Shows how plugged into continental, Catholic Europe the reformers were…

 

[aidanbradypop]

Really? I’d quite strongly disagree! There seems to be very little historical evidence of links between the early reformers in the Church of England and the Lollards, and indeed between Wycliffe himself and subsequent Lollardy. Wycliffe’s major influence was on Hus and the Bohemians; Luther and the Lutherans were the greatest influence on the earliest reformers. Seems ironic, really! Shows how plugged into continental, Catholic Europe the reformers were…

Not that Wycliffe was the father of the English Reformation, but I see Wycliffe as kind opening the door to doubt of certain things. Make sense?

 

[Novocastrian]

Not that Wycliffe was the father of the English Reformation, but I see Wycliffe as kind opening the door to doubt of certain things. Make sense?

I understand where you’re coming from, but I respectfully disagree.

 

[GKC]

Re: just a part of Contarini’s reply above. Hank didn’t ask for an annulment, which would mean that he asked for something to done to his marriage (that it be annulled; made of no effect). He asked for a decree of nullity; that there never was a valid sacramental marriage.

People often get annoyed at my pedantic nitpicking, I know. But history is complicated.

GKC

 

[Truth_Faith13]

I was on their website and saw that it claims to be Catholic, I always thought they were protestants.

“The Church of England is part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. It worships the one true God, who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.”

I mean it’s obviously very different to Catholicism because it’s led by Queen Elizabeth II and not the Pope, they are more liberal since the whole reason it was established was for the sake of divorce. Therefore, I take it that it’s only Catholic in name or at least taken its roots from there?

Catholic means universal…high churches like to consider themselves catholic still (catholic in your sense)…others don’t, they just mean the universal body of Christ church

 

[aidanbradypop]

I understand where you’re coming from, but I respectfully disagree.

I, personally, just see Wycliffe as sort of moving the first piece in a complicated game of theological chess.

 

[cheezey]

Catholic means universal…high churches like to consider themselves catholic still (catholic in your sense)…others don’t, they just mean the universal body of Christ church

thank you. There is catholic, and then there is Catholic.

 

[phil19034]

Question: with the ordination of women has priests and even bishops in the AC, have any of you in the High Church consider coming to the Catholic Church as part of the Anglican-Use?

If yes, why have you not done so? If no, why not?

I’m simply curious.

Thanks and God Bless

 

[John_Lazarus]

And how Henry came to possess that* Defensor Fidei* title is an interesting tale that is not confined to the Assertio Septem Sacramentorum. **I can always be induced to tell it, again. **

GKC

Please!** I’d** love to hear.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Question: with the ordination of women has priests and even bishops in the AC, have any of you in the High Church consider coming to the Catholic Church as part of the Anglican-Use?

If yes, why have you not done so? If no, why not?

I’m simply curious.

Thanks and God Bless

Have you considered coming to the Anglican Church with all the abuse going on?

See how that works?

 

[Blood_Angel]

It might be, but the CofE is a very broad spectrum. I’m told that the CofE cathedral in Liverpool is very impressive, but I’ve never been. Perhaps you could visit? The standard of worship and preaching in Church of England cathedrals tends to be considerably higher than in the parishes and (on the whole) RC churches and cathedrals.

I’ve been there once, as an atheist. It was when my younger brother received his University degree with LJMU. There was a lot of people in attendance, it wasn’t really a religious event but more Academic but it was an impressive place but I didn’t feel spiritual or anything like that.

I am very new to religious thinking, I don’t know what to believe at this point.

 

[Isca]

I was baptised and confirmed in the Church of England. I was always told that there was a difference between “catholic” (with a lower-case c) and “Catholic” - the first meaning ‘all-embracing’ rather than Roman Catholic.

 

[GKC]

I was baptised and confirmed in the Church of England. I was always told that there was a difference between “catholic” (with a lower-case c) and “Catholic” - the first meaning ‘all-embracing’ rather than Roman Catholic.

Lots of opinions amongst Anglicans, on thing like that.

GKC

 

[aidanbradypop]

I was baptised and confirmed in the Church of England. I was always told that there was a difference between “catholic” (with a lower-case c) and “Catholic” - the first meaning ‘all-embracing’ rather than Roman Catholic.

Personally, I believe in the One, Holy, catholic and Apostolic Church.

 

[cheezey]

Personally, I believe in the One, Holy, catholic and Apostolic Church.

Been reciting that all my life in oh so many different churches.

 

[Novocastrian]

I was baptised and confirmed in the Church of England. I was always told that there was a difference between “catholic” (with a lower-case c) and “Catholic” - the first meaning ‘all-embracing’ rather than Roman Catholic.

That’s just a convention to avoid confusion. The word is the same and has the same meaning; capitalisation can just help show in which context it is being deployed.

 

[cheezey]

I was baptised and confirmed in the Church of England. I was always told that there was a difference between “catholic” (with a lower-case c) and “Catholic” - the first meaning ‘all-embracing’ rather than Roman Catholic.

Lots of opinions amongst Anglicans, on thing like that.

GKC

Could you clarify, GKC?

 

[Picky_Picky]

Question: with the ordination of women has priests and even bishops in the AC, have any of you in the High Church consider coming to the Catholic Church as part of the Anglican-Use?

If yes, why have you not done so? If no, why not?

I’m simply curious.

Thanks and God Bless

Just as a point of information, in case there is any doubt, there are plenty of Anglo-Catholics in the CofE and elsewhere in the Anglican Communion who favour women’s ordination, among them the Affirming Catholic grouping (which includes former Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams).

 

[aidanbradypop]

Could you clarify, GKC?

I am not GKC.

You have your Anglo-Catholics that believe they are "C"atholic as much as the Roman Catholic. At least that is what I get from speaking with them.

You also have your Episcopalians like me that believes we are part of the One Holy Universal Apostolic Church.

Make sense?

 

[GKC]

Please!** I’d** love to hear.

You are kind to ask.

Henry liked sparklies. Was always on the look-out for a new and nifty title, or geegaw, to add to his collection. In 1512, he petitioned Julius II to award him the title possessed by Louis XII, “Most Christian King” (you didn’t just call yourself something like that; it was awarded). Not sure if “Most Christian” was a zero sum title, but Julius did award it to Henry, and, for good measure, secretly gave him the French throne. All he had to do to claim it was to defeat Louis in the then on-going unpleasantness between the Holy League and France. That part never happened, though Henry tried, after Ferdinand of Spain finked out on him. But Henry got his “Christianissimus”.

In 1515, Henry wanted something else to pad his resume. Various ideas were passed around: “Protector of the Holy See”, maybe “Defender”, from the English side. The first was turned down because it already belonged to the Holy Roman Emperor, the second was the property of the Swiss. Some in Rome countered with “King Apostolic” (interesting combination) or “Orthodox”. The Pope vetoed both. In 1516, the title of “Defender of the Faith” was proposed from England. Leo ignored it, and Henry pouted.

Henry gave up until May, 1521, when Wolsey wrote once again to Rome, asking for a pretty for Henry. Leo passed it to a committee of Cardinals. Forthcoming were suggestions:

“Rex Fidelis”, "“Orthodoxus”, “Ecclesiaticus” ,
“Protector”, “Anglicus”. The last looks like they were running out of ideas.

When the Cardinals inquired just why Henry warranted another honor, the part he had played supporting the Holy See against Louis, 9 years before, was mentioned. And there was the Assertio, of which Rome had heard (it was in draft in May 1521, printed in July, sent to Rome in September, after the Cardinals had been considering the matter for a few months. So, before the* Assertio* was received and presented to Leo (his copy bound in Henry’s favorite cloth of gold; signed by Henry, too), a list of titles for Henry to choose from was shipped to England.

The* Assertio* probably tipped the scales. About the time it was presented to Leo, Henry chose the same title that had been suggested by England 6 years before: Defensor Fidei. Leo granted it six weeks after he received the book. Doubtless directly inspired by the Assertio, some cardinals then wanted to add a flourish to Henry’s prize such as Gloriosus or Fidelissimus, but Leo vetoed it.

So Henry got his sparklie, partially because of the Assertio, partially because of the Holy League, partially because he was a pain in the neck. It was intended as a title for him personally, though he thought it was hereditary. Paul III took it back, but Parliament thought it looked nice, and attached it to the Throne, in 1544. Mary took it off, Elizabeth put it back, and it’s there now by legislative fiat.

GKC