church pastor says I can't kneel

[Neil_Anthony]

Prepare to be GIRM’d to death, mate …

I’d love to see the quote from the GIRM which apparently requires catholics to kneel between the Holy Holy and the Great Amen. If my canadian catholic bishops are in schism over this matter, I want to know about it so I can save my soul.

 

[otjm]

Did you really mean to say that kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer was a post Vatican II innovation?

Nope. Guess it helps to proof read, doesn’t it?

Anyway, the Novus Ordo Missal traces itself directly back to the documents of Vatican II, and thus disobedience of the rubrics of the Novus Ordo is clearly, in my mind, disobedience to the will of Vatican II. If more people thought of these things in that light, they might think twice before doing them.

Well, there are others in these fora who would disagree with you, and say that V2 never intended that the Mass be changed as much as it did; seems that the Pope agrees with them in part. However, I understand your reasoning, which makes sense.

I do disagree that anyone intentionally is trying to disobey the the will of Vatican 2; they often indicate that the will of Vatican 2 was for more “reformation” to the Mass than occured. Don’t know which probate court they were in at that moment… but in any event, they seem to think they have some mandate (from whom, it is never explained; darn those niggling details!) to carry on the work of reform. Or reform of the reform… their enthusiasm seems to increase as their wisdom decreases.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Who told you that the Church requires you to kneel at this point? that is NOT the consecration. You are being disobedient to your pastor

Sorry, I made a mistake here. In Canada, we kneel from the “holy holy holy” until the consecration is done and then after the Memorial Acclamtion we can either kneel or stand until the great amen. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Kendy]

Kendy, can you answer my question in post #60?..

Is this just during the weeday masses or on Sunday too…?

week day

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

---

No I didn’t—and provided Church documentation which over-rides your view of “minor posture issue”.

RS–2004

. Other Abuses

[174.] Furthermore, those actions that are brought about which are contrary to the other matters treated elsewhere in this Instruction or in the norms established by law are not to be considered of little account, but are to be numbered among the other abuses to be carefully avoided and corrected.

Yes, carefully avoided and corrected, and in the manner instructed, which is be charitable and report any problems.

Lux

 

[Walking_Home]

Yes, carefully **avoided **and corrected, and in the manner instructed, which is be charitable and report any problems.

Lux

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I don’t believe anyone is arguing against the above—but pay close attention the word avoided. How do we avoid something— the answer would be—to NOT participating in doing it.

 

[FCEGM]

Something my pastor mentioned one day at Mass is that the Mass is the community at prayer, and part of that is that our postures should be as a community. If one person does things “their way” while the rest of the congregation does something else, they are setting themselves apart and disrupting the sense of community. And he mentioned that it takes humility to go along with the rest of the church rather than having the Mass be done your way.

I sympathize with those who want to kneel when everyone else stands. If it’s honestly done out of piety, then perhaps it’s best to continue. But I think it’s necessary to question whether it’s done out of pride. Is there a feeling that there’s something wrong with everyone else and you’ll show them how it ought to be done? Have you honestly considered humbling yourself to go along with everyone else rather than making yourself an example? Do you, perhaps, feel a little more holy than those other people who don’t kneel with you?

Unfortunately what your pastor said is said more often than not when a parish is in disobedience to the rubrics set down by the Church. Suddenly if one IS obedient, he or she is made to seem the disobedient one, as trying to be holier than thou.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

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I don’t believe anyone is arguing against the above—but pay close attention the word avoided. How do we avoid something— the answer would be—to NOT participating in doing it.

Again there is the difference in priority, which I have mentioned before
I repeat

This obedience issue is certainly an ethical dilema which probably has authentic guidance on both sides. I doubt either response (obeying or disobeying your pastor in this posture matter) would be sinful. As I said posture of the congregation is not a major issue, so I believe the respect for the pastor should take priority, and a discussion or report after, if so desired.

I do not think you are qualified to say I am wrong in my position, just that you also hold a valid oposing one.

Let’s agree to disagree.

Peace

Lux

 

[kage_ar]

Seems to me, if there are no “good reasons” that are apparent, the next steps are to are to speak with the Pastor. If you do not settle things, then, go to the Diocese. Pray for all involved.

 

[NPC]

Hi,
As I’m not from the U.S. I can’t comment with any authority on the recommendations of the American bishops, but I’ll give my tuppence worth on the matter anyway…

Firstly it seems to me to be very regrettable situation that someone is told that they can’t kneel in adoration of Christ at the consecration - and that as a result of their doing so they are being denied such an important Church ministry- that of a Minister of the Word.

Here in Ireland I think it is left up to the individual bishop to lay down instructions on posture at the Mass. In my diocese there was a review of posture sometime last year (shortly after the appointment of the bishop to the diocese). There was nothing shocking - the main change was that we are now requested to stand at the “Pray, brethren…” (we used to kneel there), and also that we stand at the post-communion prayer (rather than just before the final blessing).

The directions in my diocese seem to me to be completely logical - standing for hearing (and in honour of) the Gospel and for prayer, and kneeling at the consecration as an act of worship at the True Presence of the Lord. It certainly seems unnatural to stand at this point - kneeling is a sign of humility, and the consecration (and after Agnus Dei) are times when we should show that humility before the Lord.

I don’t want to encourage disobediance of bishops’ or Rome’s directives, but surely what is most important is that people aren’t just standing or kneeling etc. for the sake of making a show of piety. People (including the celebrant) should be focusing on Christ and the solemnity of the Mass - I suspect that if a person kneels instead of stands the Mass will not become invalid, but perhaps it could if the priest was being distracted and focusing more attention on such a person than on the Eucharist…

I do hope you sort this out with your Parish Priest. If it is the priest who is in the wrong - if he is going against the American Bishops - then it must be brought to his attention (and maybe the bishop’s if necessary). I hope you get to begin your ministry of the Word too!

With Best Wishes.

 

[Walking_Home]

Again there is the difference in priority, which I have mentioned before
I repeat
Quote:
This obedience issue is certainly an ethical dilema which probably has authentic guidance on both sides. I doubt either response (obeying or disobeying your pastor in this posture matter) would be sinful. As I said posture of the congregation is not a major issue, so I believe the respect for the pastor should take priority, and a discussion or report after, if so desired.

I do not think you are qualified to say I am wrong in my position, just that you also hold a valid oposing one.

Let’s agree to disagree.

Peace

Lux

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When we speak of obedience —being obedient to the disobedient --is an afront to the authority of Rome. It is in essence participating in their disobedience. We become co-operators in the dis-obedience.

So no matter how many times you repeat yourself–this is not a minor issue --as you try to make it out to be.

 

[YADA]

Kendy,

If this is only weekday, is the community that participates fairly small and have several members who are unable to kneel…see my post, that could be why your pastor is taking this stance…to have the community gathered be in uniform stance and reflect the reality of those present…

If normal postures are taken during the Sunday Masses where the full community gathers [as is obligatory upon all Christians] then it eem as if he is responding to a specific daily circumstance and not attempting to violate the GIRM or act as his own “bishop / pope”

Again, I had a similar type of experience which I shared in my post…

 

[Brendan]

B,

I will not even attempt to respond to that ridiculous comparison.

Why not? You yourself said that we should obey the pastor in everythign that is not sinful? Are you now abandoning that position?

As I said posture of the congregation is not a major issue, so I believe the respect for the pastor should take priority,

RS didn’t list public rescitation of sins to be a major abuse, since you have used that as your guide to what is major and minor, I presume you would also consider it to be a minor matter.

So would you follow the pastor if the pastor decreed that all sins are to be publically proclaimed, or would you be disobedient in this matter?

 

[Brendan]

Again there is the difference in priority, which I have mentioned before
I repeat

Peace

Lux

But, if RS instructs us avoid such abuses, how would you personally avoid that abuse?

 

[Jaypeeto4]

When I first started at my parish under the FORMER priest,
he had everyone STAND during the consecration.
I would kneel, as did several other members of the parish.

This “priest” also had Liturgical Dancing,
would frequently belittle the Scriptures,
accuse the then-current Pope (JPII) of “oppressing women,”
would harp on and on about how great homosexuals are,
blah, blah, blah.
The GIRM says we are to KNEEL.
This priest deliberately violated the GIRM.
He who is unfaithful in what is LEAST
is unfaithful in what is MUCH.

Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

So would you follow the pastor if the pastor decreed that all sins are to be publically proclaimed, or would you be disobedient in this matter?

Can you really be norrow focused that you cannot see that breaking the anonymonity of confession is more serious than breaking a posture norm? This would be against faith and/or morals.

Again, I do not advocate breaking any norm, but I would respect my pastor in a posture situation. You do as you feel is best. We will both answer for our choice, and this does not worry me.

Lux​

Why not? You yourself said that we should obey the pastor in everythign that is not sinful? Are you now abandoning that position?
RS didn’t list public rescitation of sins to be a major abuse, since you have used that as your guide to what is major and minor, I presume you would also consider it to be a minor matter

.

this is the description of rs
On certain matters to be observed or to be avoided
regarding the Most Holy Eucharist

Surely even you can see that your presumption is illogical.

Lux

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

But, if RS instructs us avoid such abuses, how would you personally avoid that abuse?

I don’t know, but if this pastor really didn’t have the respect for norms, I would probably change parishes. I really think it is wrong to go against everyone, unless it is a matter of faith or morals.

Lux

 

[Kendy]

Perhaps you should ask your Pastor to explain why he wants you to stand when the missal indicates that all should kneel? What is his reason? It would only seem fair that since he is the one who wants to make an exception to the rule, he should explain why.

The pastor and the liturgical committe met and decided that I can continue to kneel and be a lector.

 

[Kendy]

Hi WH,

I never said it shouldn’t be addressed. I said that it probably wouldn’t change, and that if there is a major difference with a pastor, it would be better for both parties if the person changes parishes.

I am not picking at straws, I believe respect for a pastor is a very important issue, and cannot be dismissed over a minor posture issue.

Lux

Since much time has been spent on this issue of respect, I would like to share how I handled the situation.

When I was confronted about my kneeling, I was told that if I wanted to be a lector I should set a good example and stand since that is the parish norm. I said that if that’s the case, then I chose not to read.

she said: Father X has asked the parish to stand. You want to be holier than the parish?

Me: the bishops have asked us to kneel. I will not read. I am sorry.

 

[Brendan]

Can you really be norrow focused that you cannot see that breaking the anonymonity of confession is more serious than breaking a posture norm? This would be against faith and/or morals.

Actually, it’s not against Faith and Morals. It was a practice of the early church and is still practiced in some monastaries. Each person who hears the sins confessed is bound by the seal of the confessional, but it certainly does not violate any Church teaching to do so. Canon Law says that both parties ( penitent and confessor) have a Right to an anonomous confession, and that all parties that hear the sins confessed are bound by the seal, but it would certainly be a Valid Absolution.

You specifically said that you would follow your pastor in anything that is not sinful, so I challenged your claim.

You didn’t say anything on if it was ‘serious’ or not. But to continue with the hypothetical situation. What if the priest declared that this abuse was NOT serious and even gave reasons for this change ( practice of the early Church, lets people know they are not alone in their sins…etc)

Can we make our own, independant, judgement on the seriousness of the abuse? If the priest says this is not a big deal, and even other people in the parish think it isn’t a big deal, could we consider it a big deal inspite of that, or do we have to accept our priests declaration on the matter?

Again, I do not advocate breaking any norm, but I would respect my pastor in a posture situation. You do as you feel is best. We will both answer for our choice, and this does not worry me.

Lux
—.

But I still have an obligation to correct this priest (and you), it would be a sin of ommision of I did not, and a Spiritual Work of Mercy if I do.

this is the description of rs
On certain matters to be observed or to be avoided
regarding the Most Holy Eucharist

Surely even you can see that your presumption is illogical.

Lux

Not really, you could think that since this document only addresses one Sacrament, that abuses involving other Sacraments are not serious