Church, Religious Orders after Vatican II

[jwinch2]

Increases in all the branches of the order: That’s excellent!

It absolutely is isn’t it? God hears our needs, and He responds. Furthermore, the Blessed Mother promised to always watch over our Order and protect it and Saint Dominic himself promised us that he would be more help to us in Heaven than he ever was when he walked the earth.

 

[iloveangels]

Ok I must first, say I am not saying that the Franciscans are evil by any stretch . I hope you realize that I am only discussing their methods. I am not even suggesting that they change their methods either. Their spirituality is just as important in the church. Every spirituality is a treasure of the church. But surely the effectiveness of a method can be compared and analyzed for a given time and place, right?

So all I am saying is that there are other effective methods required for this current time.

Okay, that’s fair.

If I understand you correctly, you are only using the Franciscan charism to describe a certain “show them but don’t tell them” method, right? And you’d like to see better catechesis to start with.

 

[passer_by]

Okay, that’s fair.

If I understand you correctly, you are only using the Franciscan charism to describe a certain “show them but don’t tell them” method, right?

Yes!

 

[iloveangels]

Yes!

I’d like to see better catechesis too! And not only for children either!

PS: That saying “Preach with words if necessary,” is often misunderstood, probably because of the way we use language now. It doesn’t say “don’t talk about God.” It says treat people as brothers so that what you DO speaks of God as loudly as anything you SAY.

 

[passer_by]

I’d like to see better catechesis too! And not only for children either!

I definitely agree. I think the adults need a lot of Catechesis in our time and perhaps, if I may say such a thing, even parish priests…

 

[jwinch2]

It says treat people as brothers so that what you DO speaks of God as loudly as what you SAY.

In my view it is also a word caution against those who are good at talking the talk but don’t walk the walk. Which I suppose is all of us at one time or another.

 

[passer_by]

PS: That saying “Preach with words if necessary,” is often misunderstood, probably because of the way we use language now. It doesn’t say “don’t talk about God.” It says treat people as brothers so that what you DO speaks of God as loudly as anything you SAY.

Actually that sounds a lot more better when you explained it that way.

I’ve had many clergy who celebrated mass and gave the homily stressing the phrase as a call to abandoning all forms of talking of God or Christ and sticking to mere compassion. Then they put forth the fact that it was from St. Francis and the whole order follows it and therefore we should too to make it authoritative.

I will definitely keep what you said today in mind. Thank you for clarifying that!

 

[jwinch2]

I think at times it is easy to forget, or maybe to never have even known, how special the men who founded the great Orders were and still are.

During the time of his Canonization, the Holy Father said of Saint Dominic that he had no more doubt of his sanctity then he did of Saint Peter or Saint Paul. Can you imagine meeting such a person? Can you imagine the holiness of someone that could cause the pope to put them on the same level as the person chose by Christ to lead His Church and the person who wrote half the New Testament of the Bible? Frankly, I cannot. And Dominic? He wanted none of it. His hope was to help sinners and go preach the Gospel among the unconverted and earn a martyr’s crown. Even towards the end of his life, he hoped that he could head off to preach and perhaps be martyred for the faith.

Now if you take that same person and then, think about the words he gave to his Order about how they were to love the sons and daughters of Saint Francis, you begin to get an inkling of how amazing of a man he must have been. Then, take into consideration that the Servites and Trinitarians also have a great devotion to St. Francis in addition to the Dominicans. Can you imagine meeting someone so holy that they earn the title “The Mirror of Perfection” or “The Perfect Christian” not from someone they picked up off the street, but from the Church herself? I cannot even begin to imagine it.

I know too little of the founders of the remaining major Orders but I would be shocked if they have not been given similar praise throughout the life of the Church. What I do know is that our Holy Fathers Dominic and Francis completely blow my mind.

 

[iloveangels]

I definitely agree. I think the adults need a lot of Catechesis in our time and perhaps, if I may say such a thing…

Did you know that the Church was in a situation similar to the one we’re in now, way back in the 13th century? It’s interesting because these things seem to run in cycles. I encourage you to go back and see what happened then, and what St. Francis said about it, as well as what the papacy said about it.

Hint: Francis refused to speak ill of priests, and yet his followers brought about a huge renaissance in orthodoxy and practice by his real methods, believe it or not. Now, I admit to you that the charism of St. Francis isn’t very well understood now, popularly being the stuff of the Readers Digest version of Catholicism, but the real thing is very powerful and muscular. St. Francis is no bird-bath saint in reality.

And it doesn’t begin by lambasting anybody. So I’m sorry if I got kind of pointed about my comments. I think we got to what you were saying okay, right? I think too that working to understand our faith is very important.

Have you seen the new series “Catholicism” by Fr. Barron? I hear it’s very good. There are also study guides and a book to go with it. I’m taking a class on it starting next month. It’s going to be offered in our diocese.

 

[passer_by]

Did you know that the Church was in a situation similar to the one we’re in now, way back in the 13th century? It’s interesting because these things seem to run in cycles. I encourage you to go back and see what happened then, and what St. Francis said about it, as well as what the papacy said about it.

Hint: Francis refused to speak ill of priests, and yet his followers brought about a huge renaissance in orthodoxy and practice by his real methods, believe it or not. Now, I admit to you that the charism of St. Francis isn’t very well understood now, popularly being the stuff of the Readers Digest version of Catholicism, but the real thing is very powerful and muscular. St. Francis is no bird-bath saint in reality.

And it doesn’t begin by lambasting anybody. So I’m sorry if I got kind of pointed about my comments. I think we got to what you were saying okay, right? I think that working to understand our faith is very important. Have you seen the new series “Catholicism” by Fr. Barron? I hear it’s very good.

No worries. I think I learned that I must look in to actual writings of St. Francis a bit on my own. I think I might have been the victim of hearing most of the readers digest versions of him too

I should apologize for if I did give the impression of being anti-Franciscan. Even with my misunderstanding of the phrase of St. Francis, I still thought highly of the order. I was only upset about what I thought were its methods.

I have not seen the series by Fr. Barron unfortunately. I just looked in to it online after you mentioned it. It does seem very interesting.

 

[iloveangels]

I think at times it is easy to forget, or maybe to never have even known, how special the men who founded the great Orders were and still are.

During the time of his Canonization, the Holy Father said of Saint Dominic that he had no more doubt of his sanctity then he did of Saint Peter or Saint Paul. Can you imagine meeting such a person? Can you imagine the holiness of someone that could cause the pope to put them on the same level as the person chose by Christ to lead His Church and the person who wrote half the New Testament of the Bible? Frankly, I cannot. And Dominic? He wanted none of it. His hope was to help sinners and go preach the Gospel among the unconverted and earn a martyr’s crown. Even towards the end of his life, he hoped that he could head off to preach and perhaps be martyred for the faith.

Now if you take that same person and then, think about the words he gave to his Order about how they were to love the sons and daughters of Saint Francis, you begin to get an inkling of how amazing of a man he must have been. Can you imagine meeting someone so holy that they earn the title “The Mirror of Perfection”? I cannot even begin to imagine it.

I know too little of the founders of the remaining major Orders but I would be shocked if they have not been given similar praise throughout the life of the Church.

Amazing. Aquinas astonishes me too. Even in public universities, it’s impossible to teach philosophy without studying the works of St. Thomas Aquinas and Anselm. These men were great thinkers and they did it completely faithfully.

As you probably know, Sts. Dominic and Francis knew each other. I believe they talked to each other. Can you imagine being a fly on that ceiling? I wonder what they said?

 

[iloveangels]

No worries. I think I learned that I must look in to actual writings of St. Francis a bit on my own. I think I might have been the victim of hearing most of the readers digest versions of him too

I should apologize for if I did give the impression of being anti-Franciscan. Even with my misunderstanding of the phrase of St. Francis, I still thought highly of the order. I was only upset about what I thought were its methods.

No problem. I now understand what you meant. We do need more emphasis on catechesis.

I have not seen the series by Fr. Barron unfortunately. I just looked in to it online after you mentioned it. It does seem very interesting.

That series by Fr. Barron is available to buy, but it’s quite expensive. I understand that EWTN and (of all things) PBS are going to be broadcasting some of it. You might be able to catch some of those telecasts and see if you like it. There are also trailers (if that’s the right word) online. We’re lucky enough in this diocese to be using the study guide and doing the whole series.

 

[iloveangels]

In my view it is also a word caution against those who are good at talking the talk but don’t walk the walk. Which I suppose is all of us at one time or another.

That is true. And it is definitely me at times too. Good interpretation and excellent reminder, Jason.

Also, passer_by, it’s hard to determine intentions in print etc because voice is absent, and I’m sorry if I was kind of hard on you. It’s easy to do in forums like this and I tend to do it if I’m not careful. Please forgive me if I did that to you.

 

[jwinch2]

That is true. And it is definitely me at times too. Good interpretation and excellent reminder, Jason.

Peace,

 

[passer_by]

That series by Fr. Barron is available to buy, but it’s quite expensive. I understand that EWTN and (of all things) PBS are going to be broadcasting some of it. You might be able to catch some of those telecasts and see if you like it. There are also trailers (if that’s the right word) online. We’re lucky enough in this diocese to be using the study guide and doing the whole series.

I was just watching a 9 minute preview on Youtube. I love some of the places he shows in that video and some of the quotes. Gave me a sense of awe.

I am not sure if you have seen this, but it reminded me of this video:-

youtube.com/watch?v=HcaYqj0CTTQ&hd=1

Your diocese is definitely lucky to have this series. I am sure it will encourage a lot of people to appreciate their faith.

 

[Alfonsus]

This is merely an opinion of mine.

An Order are called to live a life according to the rules and intention of the founder. How faithful they are living it according to example of the founder is the only yardstick of “successfulness” of the order.

What about Mother Teresa? Her call and her congregation call is very specific. To help the abandoned. She too received much critic that the sisters are too passive and not proclaiming the Gospel bold enough.

Well, I don’t care, as long as they do what God wants them to do. They do their best on their part to do discernment and live it to their best. That is their charism, that is their call.

In other words, each one of them have a very specific charism.

Now, God and the Church do not task the whole plethora of “what to do” to a person or a group of person. That is why we have different order and congregation and people and movements and groups.

I see evangelization as a communal process.
The Franciscan prepares the land, Dominicans do the sowing, others do the harvest.
Some area, some era, need longer time preparing the land. Sometimes it is hard enough just to have your present keep on existing, and we don’t know when the right time for sowing. Never mind, God knows the time, we don’t. He will send others to finish the process, we just don’t know when.

Talking about evangelization, we have “eternity” in mind. May be our schedule is snail paced compared to a Company recruitment process. Don’t care. Just stick with the calling, the vocation, live it, embrace it. The rest is God to fight. If he called us for specific battle, it is a very bad idea to fight other battle we are not supposed to.

 

[iloveangels]

I was just watching a 9 minute preview on Youtube. I love some of the places he shows in that video and some of the quotes. Gave me a sense of awe.

I am not sure if you have seen this, but it reminded me of this video:-

youtube.com/watch?v=HcaYqj0CTTQ&hd=1

Your diocese is definitely lucky to have this series. I am sure it will encourage a lot of people to appreciate their faith.

Great video. I don’t know that most people realize that we are the largest humanitarian organization on earth or that we founded the college system. I don’t even know that most Catholics realize this. I’m pretty sure they don’t.

 

[iloveangels]

This is merely an opinion of mine.

An Order are called to live a life according to the rules and intention of the founder. How faithful they are living it according to example of the founder is the only yardstick of “successfulness” of the order.

What about Mother Teresa? Her call and her congregation call is very specific. To help the abandoned. She too received much critic that the sisters are too passive and not proclaiming the Gospel bold enough.

Well, I don’t care, as long as they do what God wants them to do. They do their best on their part to do discernment and live it to their best. That is their charism, that is their call.

In other words, each one of them have a very specific charism.

Now, God and the Church do not task the whole plethora of “what to do” to a person or a group of person. That is why we have different order and congregation and people and movements and groups.

I see evangelization as a communal process.
The Franciscan prepares the land, Dominicans do the sowing, others do the harvest.
Some area, some era, need longer time preparing the land. Sometimes it is hard enough just to have your present keep on existing, and we don’t know when the right time for sowing. Never mind, God knows the time, we don’t. He will send others to finish the process, we just don’t know when.

Talking about evangelization, we have “eternity” in mind. May be our schedule is snail paced compared to a Company recruitment process. Don’t care. Just stick with the calling, the vocation, live it, embrace it. The rest is God to fight. If he called us for specific battle, it is a very bad idea to fight other battle we are not supposed to.

I think you are right, Alfonsus.

 

[jwinch2]

Well, I don’t care, as long as they do what God wants them to do. They do their best on their part to do discernment and live it to their best.

Bingo. They professed to follow a Rule, a Charism, and a Spirituality; and it is up to them to live it. If they don’t, they will answer for it later. Its the only thing I have concerns about in becoming a Dominican; am I strong enough to live the life I feel called to? Its a bit daunting at times.

With regard to Blessed Teresa, I can’t imagine that anyone would call her out for not preaching enough. I know it has happened, but the logic of it escapes me. When you think of all of those people she helped, to then suggest that she needed to speak about Jesus to them more often when to them, she WAS Jesus. She saw Christ in them and in turn, they saw Him in her. Her order now has active sisters, contemplative sisters, friars, and contemplative brothers. The touch of her hand is going to be felt on this world until our Blessed Lord comes again. What an incredible and saintly woman.

Starting with me, we all need to get the log out of our eyes…

 

[Irish_Polock]

That series by Fr. Barron is available to buy, but it’s quite expensive. I understand that EWTN and (of all things) PBS are going to be broadcasting some of it. You might be able to catch some of those telecasts and see if you like it. There are also trailers (if that’s the right word) online. We’re lucky enough in this diocese to be using the study guide and doing the whole series.

Be certain to keep a skeptical eye open while watching Fr. Barrons’ series, he tends to have rather … “unconventional” views on certain subjects, such as this video found on youtube.

Note how he views Adam. Not exactly in line with the Church.