Church renovation

  • Thread starter Thread starter brad2bad
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
B

brad2bad

Guest
Our events committee apparently has money to spend and wants to renovate parts of the church. I was told that new baptismal fonts must be big enough for adult submersion. Is that true and by what authority? :eek:

Also, does (or should) the altar be marble or any specific material? :confused:
 
Our events committee apparently has money to spend and wants to renovate parts of the church. I was told that new baptismal fonts must be big enough for adult submersion. Is that true and by what authority? :eek:

Also, does (or should) the altar be marble or any specific material? :confused:
[Edited by Moderator] the baptismal fonts “SHOULD” be what the pastor wants them to be, as long as he does not want something illicit.

There is no REQUIREMENT in canon law that they be fit to this specification - but many people are of the opinion that it is “good liturgy” to do so - and if the money is there, why not? These types of fonts ARE allowed, even if not required.
 
Any other thoughts? My brother left the Catholic Church 25 years ago and became Lutheran with his wife. Slowly over the years Catholic Churches have evolved to more closely resemble his church and other protestant churches than Catholic tradition. It doesn’t feel like good liturgy 🤷
 
Baptism by submersion is one of the permissible means to baptize a person. The others being pouring water on the head or sprinkling water on the head.

If they want baptismal font large enough to immerse an adult, there is nothing wrong with that. However, I do not believe it is **required **that they be that large. I am not a liturgical expert, so I may be wrong, but I am pretty certain about this.

Altars can be made of many materials. I recall reading somewhere that they should be made of solid material, stone, heavy wood, (not plywood or particle-board) or some similar material.

I am sure someone on this board can provide a citation that describes this.
 
Submersion baptism is not required but it is sometimes done. It could just be the pastor’s preference.

Matt
 
I remember reading somewhere in my RCIA handouts that the altar must be solid. The altar at Immaculate Conception is made of locally quarried limestone.
 
Our events committee apparently has money to spend and wants to renovate parts of the church. I was told that new baptismal fonts must be big enough for adult submersion. Is that true and by what authority? :eek:

Also, does (or should) the altar be marble or any specific material? :confused:
It’s possible that your diocese has a directive (either official or implied) that new/remodeled churches be able to handle immersion baptisms. At least around here nearly all new churches (last 20 years or so) have immersion pools.

In the case of remodels, I think it ought to depend on the design of the existing church as to whether or not such a pool is a good idea. New churches usually have the pool in back of the church near the entrance where it can double as a holy water font for those entering. (And it also has the symbolism of being the means of entrance to The Church. In remodeled churches there seems to be this tendency to put such pools near the altar (because that’s where there’s room?) which I think is kind of silly since the pool typically doesn’t fit with the overall design.

Ideally, altars are made of stone.
 
Also, does (or should) the altar be marble or any specific material? :confused:
It should be made of a solid material, preferable stone. Also the same material should be used for the lectern and the baptismal font. If possible you should be able to draw a straight line between the three objects.

The Altar should also be attached to the ground and immovable with a relic within or underneath it.

That’s the understanding i’ve been given by my Priest anyway.
 
It should be made of a solid material, preferable stone. Also the same material should be used for the lectern and the baptismal font. If possible you should be able to draw a straight line between the three objects.
So the baptsimal font should generally be to the side of the altar, and in line with the lectern? I have not heard this, and I don’t remember any churches that actually do this.
 
I think the Priest in question wanted the font at the back, the Altar at the front and the Lectern about a quarter of the way towards the font.

That and I have seen Cathadra behind the Altar to the right, then Altar in the center then Lectern to the left and slightly further towards the congratation. The Baptismal Font was in perfect line with these three off to the left in the main part of the building.

I’ll be seeing Father on Friday so I’ll ask him where he got the idea from.
 
God be with you. Our parish is going through a remodeling project too, so I sympathize.
Also, does (or should) the altar be marble or any specific material? :confused:
The instructions in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) cover the altar question:
301. In keeping with the Church’s traditional practice and the altar’s symbolism, the table of a fixed altar is to be of stone and indeed of natural stone. In the dioceses of the United States of America, however, wood which is worthy, solid, and well-crafted may be used, provided that the altar is structurally immobile. The supports or base for upholding the table, however, may be made of any sort of material, provided it is worthy and solid.

A movable altar may be constructed of any noble and solid materials suited to liturgical use, according to the traditions and usages of the different regions.
  1. The practice of placing relics of Saints, even those not Martyrs, under the altar to be dedicated is fittingly retained. Care should be taken, however, to ensure the authenticity of such relics.
    The main document covering church renovations and architecture (including altars and fonts) is Built of Living Stones: Art, Architecture, and Worship by the Committee on Divine Worship of the USCCB. Sacrosanctum Concilium is the Vatican II document covering these topics. Also, check your diocesan web page for the Pastoral Handbook propagated by your bishop. It may have specific instructions on both topics.
Best!

SanClemente
 
if the pastor baptizes adults (at the Easter Vigil) by immersion the font should be permanent and should be constructed to allow both full immersion by adults, and baptism of infants by immersion or pouring in a smaller pool as part of the same font. this is immensely preferable to the expedient of a temporary poor, usually of less than “noble” materials, used by older churches not so equipped. however note that the water must be fresh and flowing, usually through some electric recirculating fountain, and actually should be the main “holy water” font of the church, and at the entrance, not near the altar. Many new churches having installed such a beautiful and appropriate font are finding due to water shortages and bans they cannot run the fountains or keep them filled, so only fill the smaller font.
 
usccb.org/liturgy/livingstonesind.shtml

This is a link from the bishops’ website regarding the construction and decoration of a church bldg. It includes a section regarding the baptistry. Check it out.
Do check it out, but note that it has no binding authority except where it is quoting other documents (which is a significant portion of the text). It remains a useful round up of Church guidelines on the construction and renovation of churches.

If you have any problems with the planned renovation, (from gut-feeling something is wrong), then check out Michael Rose’s “In Tiers of Glory”, Pope Benedict’s “Spirit of the Liturgy”, and (if you can get it for free) Fr Vosko’s “God’s House Is Our House” (for contrast and the underlying theological errors ONLY).

The OP mentioned the “necessity” of an immersion font. This is nowhere required, but frequently insisted on. I will have to check through resources, but I know it is part of the program of changes that Fr Vosko and his elite group of peers seek to institute as the ‘norm’ of liturgical design.
 
Do check it out, but note that it has no binding authority except where it is quoting other documents (which is a significant portion of the text). It remains a useful round up of Church guidelines on the construction and renovation of churches.

If you have any problems with the planned renovation, (from gut-feeling something is wrong), then check out Michael Rose’s “In Tiers of Glory”, Pope Benedict’s “Spirit of the Liturgy”, and (if you can get it for free) Fr Vosko’s “God’s House Is Our House” (for contrast and the underlying theological errors ONLY).

The OP mentioned the “necessity” of an immersion font. This is nowhere required, but frequently insisted on. I will have to check through resources, but I know it is part of the program of changes that Fr Vosko and his elite group of peers seek to institute as the ‘norm’ of liturgical design.
And if the pastor wants it, the money is there, and others want it, why exactly should it not happen?

If the original poster doesn’t want it, that is too bad. The pastor has a right to make that decision. That is why I am not sure why people keep eluding to it not being mandated and the fact that it is often insisted upon.
 
And if the pastor wants it, the money is there, and others want it, why exactly should it not happen?

If the original poster doesn’t want it, that is too bad. The pastor has a right to make that decision. That is why I am not sure why people keep eluding to it not being mandated and the fact that it is often insisted upon.
Nothing, and in the end it will be the pastor’s decision. However, the pastor should not impose his will (in these days of seven year switch, the pastor will not be there nearly as long as the parishioners), and certainly not by deceit. The parishioners have every right to inform themselves and to argue, plead, organize against renovations that they are opposed to.

*in the interest of full disclosure I began to organize my parish against bringing Fr Vosko to “help the people realize we need a new church”. Now our parish does need to build, but not to replace a 100+ year old church with a piece of modern “art”. (The people with the money in the parish agree, and so no go for now).
 
if the pastor baptizes adults (at the Easter Vigil) by immersion the font should be permanent and should be constructed to allow both full immersion by adults, and baptism of infants by immersion or pouring in a smaller pool as part of the same font. this is immensely preferable to the expedient of a temporary poor, usually of less than “noble” materials, used by older churches not so equipped. however note that the water must be fresh and flowing, usually through some electric recirculating fountain, and actually should be the main “holy water” font of the church, and at the entrance, not near the altar. (Emphasis mine)
PuzzleAnnie -

Your use of “should”, “preferable” and “must” suggests that you are quoting from canon law or other official church doctrines. Can you please provide citations on these “commandments”? I’m curious because we are wrestling with these same issues in our church renovation project.

Thanks in advance!

SanClemente
 
document has been cited twice and linked
it does not have the force of canon law
what is binding is the Rite of Baptism, which does, and the RCIA.

If the custom in the area is full immersion of adults for baptism, the baptistry in the Church should be built for that purpose from the get go, and if it is feasible in a renovation (not always the case for many reasons) should be done. Permanance is the key word hear as it applies to the altar and other fixtures.
 
Do check it out, but note that it has no binding authority except where it is quoting other documents (which is a significant portion of the text). It remains a useful round up of Church guidelines on the construction and renovation of churches.

The OP mentioned the “necessity” of an immersion fon**This is nowhere required, but frequently insisted on. **t. I will have to check through resources, but I know it is part of the program of changes that Fr Vosko and his elite group of peers seek to institute as the ‘norm’ of liturgical design.
Regarding the authority of Built of Living Stones it says this:
§ 10 § This document has been approved by the bishops of the Latin Church of the United States and issued by the authority of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops on November 16, 2000. Built of Living Stones contains many of the provisions of universal law governing liturgical art and architecture and offers pastoral suggestions based upon the experience of the last thirty-five years. The document presents guidelines that can serve as the basis for diocesan bishops to issue further guidelines and directives for their dioceses. Where the document quotes or reiterates norms from liturgical books and the Code of Canon Law, those prescriptions are binding on local communities and dioceses.

It was agreed to by majority vote of the Bishops of the United States and therefore deserves the faithful’s utmost respect and adhereance. (I’m always amazed when the faithful present themselves as faithful followers of liturgical documents but then dismiss their own bishops).

Regarding fonts it states:
§ 69 § The following criteria can be helpful when choosing the design for the font:

One font that will accommodate the baptism of both infants and adults symbolizes the one faith and one baptism that Christians share. The size and design of the font can facilitate the dignified celebration for all who are baptized at the one font.

The font should be large enough to supply ample water for the baptism of both adults and infants. Since baptism in Catholic churches may take place by immersion in the water, or by infusion (pouring), fonts that permit all forms of baptismal practice are encouraged.91

Some often suggest large immersion type fonts are an unwarrented moderinst development. This evidences a lack of knowedge regarding the baptismal practice of the ancient and medieval church. A prime example is the Lateran baptistery, where the large depression was completely filled with water through seven spouts shaped like dear (imaging the psalm verse: as the hart panteth for running streams.). Other examples are the ancient fonts of the Milan Cathedral (where Ambose baptized Augustine), San Marcello on the Corso (Rome), and San Lorenzo in Lucina (Rome).

In the medieval era, too, large fonts, although now above the ground, were used to baptized. Illuminated manuscripts often show neophytes, kings, or other personages, in fonts that look like huge pots.

I often think of the question in reverse: why would I prefer a stoop-like font when the great architectural and liturgical patrimony of the church indicates otherwise. 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top