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1ke
Guest
So what’s your point?
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Rence
Guest
Ok, so the pastor “excommunicated” someone after they left…?
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sedonaman
Guest
My first question is whether or not the Cornerstone Reformed Church is a valid church.
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Hesychios
Guest
The phrase "handed ‘over to Satan and his kingdom’ ” is harsh.
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lizaanne
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Ahimsa
Guest
Cornerstone Reformed Church.
I guess whoever is excommunicated (and stays excommunicated) was never really “born again” in the first place.
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Little_Mary
Guest
You beat me to it, Liza.
The letter is hysterical. Sounds like those people were wise to leave that church.
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Khalid
Guest
That letter is actually self-contradicting in Reformed theology.
Who is the Pastor to think that he can determine who is one the the doubly predestined elect or reprobate?
Just another folly of Calvinism. Carry on.
Who is the Pastor to think that he can determine who is one the the doubly predestined elect or reprobate?
Just another folly of Calvinism. Carry on.
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Iron_Donkey
Guest
I have to wonder what exactly it is that the pastor thinks he’s excommunicating this person from.
The specific group he happens to lead? This doesn’t seem to be enough to justify the “turning over to Satan” language. “We turn you over to Satan until you come back, or until you go to the First Reformed Church of Whatever instead, which we disagree with but grudgingly admit is generally ok” just doesn’t have the right ring to it.
The visible confines of the universal Church? I was not aware that many besides Catholics found that to be terribly important, and I’m not sure what he would consider those to be anyway.
The actual universal Church? If so, does he think that if the person were to die under this “excommunication” that he would be damned? And regardless, what makes him think he can do that?
I was under the impression that most protestants didn’t think anyone could do this, but if anyone can do anything at all like this, I would think that it would obviously be tied up in Apostolic Succession. Which these people don’t usually believe in.
In short, I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, except that some pastor somewhere thinks some guy is being stupid and should go to church more often.
The specific group he happens to lead? This doesn’t seem to be enough to justify the “turning over to Satan” language. “We turn you over to Satan until you come back, or until you go to the First Reformed Church of Whatever instead, which we disagree with but grudgingly admit is generally ok” just doesn’t have the right ring to it.
The visible confines of the universal Church? I was not aware that many besides Catholics found that to be terribly important, and I’m not sure what he would consider those to be anyway.
The actual universal Church? If so, does he think that if the person were to die under this “excommunication” that he would be damned? And regardless, what makes him think he can do that?
I was under the impression that most protestants didn’t think anyone could do this, but if anyone can do anything at all like this, I would think that it would obviously be tied up in Apostolic Succession. Which these people don’t usually believe in.
In short, I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, except that some pastor somewhere thinks some guy is being stupid and should go to church more often.
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ANNE_2
Guest
On a Catholic web site, the title you used is misleading.
As we all know, the “Cornerstone Reformed Church” has nothing to do with the Catholic Faith and therefore should have been used in your title.
It is not up to Catholics or any other Faith to determine the beliefs of the “Cornerstone Reformed Church”.
Not attending Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of obligation are MORTAL Sins in the Catholic Church.
Thou Shall Keep Holy the Lord’s Day - is a Commandment of God.
CCC 2104 "All men are bound to seek the truth, especially in what concerns God and his Church, and to embrace it and hold on to it as they come to know it.
This duty derives from “the very dignity of the human person.”
It does not contradict a “sincere respect” for different religions which frequently “reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men,”
nor the requirement of charity, which urges Christians "to treat with love, prudence and patience those who are in error or ignorance with regard to the faith."
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Ahimsa
Guest
This pastor is obviously not typical of most mainline or evangelical Protestant pastors.
I seem to recall that there some very fundamentalist Protestants who think that everyone outside of their own 50 to 100-member church is damned for hell, but they are not too common.
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Contarini
Guest
It’s not self-contradicting. For one thing, he never said that they were reprobates–he holds out the hope that they will repent and return.
In Calvinist theology one can judge a tree by its fruit. The elect will live godly lives. Calvin himself did not say that you should use this to reassure yourself of your own election as far as I know (and even among later Calvinists this approach wasn’t as common as many people think), but unrepentant, serious sin has certainly always been regarded by Calvinists as a warning sign that a person is not truly regenerate.
Calvinist theology is a lot more nuanced than most people think.
Mind you, this particular pastor doesn’t seem to be mainstream Reformed. But that’s not excuse to caricature him.
I’m not sure why Catholics get so shocked with this kind of letter. Catholics believe in excommunication too. The facts that Catholic excommunication is extremely complicated and that you usually aren’t notified of it in as direct and explicit a manner as is the case here are not, it seems to me, clearly in favor of Catholicism!
Edwin
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buffalo
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Sounds like an ecclesiastical community.
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Contarini
Guest
If he holds to classic Reformed theology (I’m not sure he does), then he does consider those limits terribly important, and he would identify them with the limits of those particular churches where the Word is rightly preached and the Sacraments are rightly administered.
The fact that he’s a minister of the Gospel and exercises the power of the keys on behalf of the Church. This is an example (albeit a particularly strident and extreme one) of how the Reformed understand the power of the keys to work. You declare the consequences of people accepting or turning away from the Word of God.
Not in the Catholic sense. But the Reformed do believe in a succession of teaching.
This guy sounds a bit crazy, and I’m not saying that a more mainstream Reformed pastor would react in quite so extreme a way to someone not showing up at their church. But his actions are more theologically justified (in terms of the Reformed theological tradition) than most on this forum realize. Read Calvin’s discussion of the Church in Institutes 4.1.
Edwin
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Sufjon
Guest
Hi Ahisma: I’m always glad to read your posts and I really enjoy them. But I I’m trying to figure this one out in regards to what the point is. Excommunication is an old tool of subjugation. These folks at this particular church are just a bit more bold faced and less nuanced than those who are more practiced at it, but the implications are the same as any excommunication. Did you have an observation on it? I’m always interested in your observations.
Your friend,
Sufjon
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twopekinguys
Guest
This “church” isn’t all that far from me, I may have to check them out sometime.
Could be interesting to say the least.
Could be interesting to say the least.
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smp501
Guest
My thoughts exactly. I fear this letter probably did far more damage to this person then skipping out on church did. All it takes is something like this to turn apathy to outright disgust with Christianity.
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beehumble
Guest
I thought Protestants were under no obligation to attend church on Sundays? Maybe a tithing thing?
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