Church Shopping

[PRmerger]

I understand the problems you mentioned about people thinking that the Holy Spirit lead them to one interpretation or another, but I don’t know of a church that doesn’t claim to have been guided by the Holy Spirit.** That kind of makes my head spin.**

'zactly. :sad_yes:

know that your church was the first tightly organized version of a Christian Church,

Yes.

although most biblical historians suggest that they weren’t the first Christians.

How did the first century Christians worship? What did they believe?

While the other views were known of for thousands of years, the actual content of those writings in any level of detail or first hand accounts have only recently been available.

If they were “known for thousands of years” yet the writings in detail are only recently available, what, exactly was it that these Christians “knew”? And how did they know if they didn’t have the writings?

To me, they make as much sense as the Catholic version. They can’t both be 100% correct. This is one reason why I look for answers. Talking to people like yourself is actually a big help to me.

:tiphat:

 

[Bluegoat]

Well, then, the conclusion I’m getting is that you disagree with Sufjon’s perception; you believe that I am NOT open-minded and don’t appreciate my comments?

Is this correct, Bluegoat?

I’m just wanting to make sure we’re on the same page here and I’m not misunderstanding your comment. It seems like a diss, but I just want to make sure.

Well, I appreciate anyone’s comments unless he or she is rude, which you aren’t. I am not sure you seem open minded to me. The fact that you accept information from a source you know to be using suspect methods of analysis is very suspicious to me. It makes me wonder if you would accept anti-Protestant information from any source no matter how untrue, and if you are interested in the truth or just defending Catholicism at any cost. Which doesn’t seem open minded.

It may be there is some other reason of course, but I find it very hard to get past a willingness to use tainted information. I don’t know if that is a diss or not, I guess it is in a way.

 

[Sufjon]

'zactly. :sad_yes:

Yes.

How did the first century Christians worship? What did they believe?

If they were “known for thousands of years” yet the writings in detail are only recently available, what, exactly was it that these Christians “knew”? And how did they know if they didn’t have the writings?

:tiphat:

Hi PRMerger: I don’t want you to think I’m ignoring your response, but I have a heavy calendar today. I’ll reply as soon as I can.

Thanks
Sufjon

 

[PRmerger]

Hi PRMerger: I don’t want you to think I’m ignoring your response, but I have a heavy calendar today. I’ll reply as soon as I can.

Thanks
Sufjon

No rush.

 

[PRmerger]

Well, I appreciate anyone’s comments unless he or she is rude, which you aren’t. I am not sure you seem open minded to me.

LOL! I don’t know how you can get much more open-minded than, “I’ll certainly entertain any other accountings, should someone provide me with any”.

You can’t fault me for not considering other statistics since:* you’ve provided me with none. *

The fact that you accept information from a source you know to be using suspect methods of analysis is very suspicious to me.

Yes, I get that there is flawed methodology. It’s easily rectified by a simple mathematical process called subtraction.

But, if you can provide a study which provides the correct number of denominations, I’d be happy to consider it.

It makes me wonder** if you would accept** anti-Protestant information from any source no matter how untrue, and if you are interested in the truth or just defending Catholicism at any cost. Which doesn’t seem open minded.

I dunno. I guess I’m open minded enough to consider the possibility that I might accept it.

Do you have any anti-Protestant websites that we can discuss?

 

[Sufjon]

'zactly. :sad_yes:

How did the first century Christians worship? What did they believe?

If they were “known for thousands of years” yet the writings in detail are only recently available, what, exactly was it that these Christians “knew”? And how did they know if they didn’t have the writings?

:tiphat:

Hi PRMerger:

-Many scholars think the first Christians were basically Jews who believed in Jesus. There are a lot of accounts of them for the most part remaining with the Temple until about the time of it’s destruction by the Romans, but these Jews who believed in Jesus persisted more or less until about the 5th century. Over time, what would become “The Church” defined itself. There are a lot of good published works on that, but it’s easy to check out. I’ll give one source of many you could start with: Alister Edgar McGrath, Professor of Historical Theology at Oxford. Now this is according to mostly academic sources, and there are many who prefer to stick to the writings of Paul and some later church fathers. I tend to lean more toward the academic view. That’s me of course.

-On the second question, it is thought that Church fathers like Irenaeus and many others were very familiar with Gnostic writings, and knew the content pretty well. This is because of some of the comments they made. The other possibility is that they were bluffing. Either way, they didn’t like the Gnostics. Because of persecution, most of these Gnostics went underground because at the time persecution could, and often did cost people their lives. For this reason, any good copies of these writings had vanished until about the mid 20th century when a good number of ancient codices started being found. They were only recently translated. So, it appears church fathers of antiquity knew the contents, but the contents were for the most part a matter of conjecture for later people until recently. I will say openly that I don’t subscribe to the view that because one form of teaching prevailed for most of this time that it is the right view. I also wouldn’t say that the Gnostics had the right view either. There are too many versions for me to see a lot of credibility in any of them past some of the very basic ideas. This doesn’t make me a cynical wise-guy though. It’s a major problem in the development of my own faith. I find it quite troubling.

Thanks!
Sufjon

 

[Bluegoat]

LOL! I don’t know how you can get much more open-minded than, “I’ll certainly entertain any other accountings, should someone provide me with any”.

You can’t fault me for not considering other statistics since:* you’ve provided me with none. *

Yes, I get that there is flawed methodology. It’s easily rectified by a simple mathematical process called subtraction.

But, if you can provide a study which provides the correct number of denominations, I’d be happy to consider it.

I dunno. I guess I’m open minded enough to consider the possibility that I might accept it.

Do you have any anti-Protestant websites that we can discuss?

OK. I am going to try to explain the methodology problem again, because you don’t get it. It is not as easy as subtracting the “extra” Catholic numbers.

The source clearly used a method to calculate the numbers that arrived at a grossly wrong number for the Catholic Church. There is a good chance - we can’t really know - that they used the same method for determining the number of Protestant groups. If the same, incorrect, method was used for determining the number of Protestants, there is good reason not to trust the numbers the source gives for Protestants either.

It might, if we could see how they compiled their numbers, be possible to fix the problem, but we can’t just subtract the same number from the Protestant denominations. It would probably amount to redoing all the work ourselves, so perhaps not very worthwhile to bother.

Now, again, the bigger point is this - it does not matter how many there are. If you understand the Church in the same way the CC or the OC does, (and a few Protestants groups too) it is a problem if there is more than one. Clearly, there is - even if we just count Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant we have three. One need not worry about the exact number. On the other hand, with an understanding closer to that of many Protestants, many different denominations or sub-groups isn’t a problem, so pointing out that there are three or 40,000 is pretty irrelevant.

 

[PRmerger]

The source clearly used a method to calculate the numbers that arrived at a grossly wrong number for the Catholic Church.

Firstly, it is not a “grossly wrong number”, unless you believe that 0.6% is huge.

Now, it’s a good thing I’m open-minded, 'cause if I follow your paradigm, I’d have to dismiss everything else you’re saying 'cause your methodology is flawed.

 

[Teneas]

As a Catholic, my wife and I often “church shop” since we moved away from the one we loved so much. Music, homilies, and the parish as a whole play an important part into our faith life. I was perplexed by this at one point, and talked to my spiritual director about it even. I stated “I know we are meant to go and focus on the Eucharist…” and then he cut me off. He said “It is the Eucharist AND the Word that matters. Yes the Eucharist is the most important sacrifice at the mass, but the Word is just as important”

That put things in a new light for me. I strive to find good homilies, priests with conviction, and some lively music (doesn’t have to be that lively, but has be better than a funeral).

My family is in the process of trying to find a new home, both parish wise, and actual housing wise. One of the most exicting things about that is that we will get to experience a new parish. I see nothing wrong with “church shopping” if you are Catholic. I think that others tend to do it to much however.

 

[Bluegoat]

Firstly, it is not a “grossly wrong number”, unless you believe that 0.6% is huge.

Now, it’s a good thing I’m open-minded, 'cause if I follow your paradigm, I’d have to dismiss everything else you’re saying 'cause your methodology is flawed.

Oh good grief. I don’t know why I bother. Being open minded is about more than saying one is open minded.

 

[Sufjon]

Oh good grief. I don’t know why I bother. Being open minded is about more than saying one is open minded.

Dear Friend Bluegoat: There isn’t any need for anyone to be frustrated. Open-minded is a relative term. Being open minded on the CAF does not make one a virtual Richard Alpert (better known as Ram Das). That’s a different level of open-minded, and the level on which I am most comfortable operating in. Most people would be very uncomfortable trying to delve into my level of open-mindedness, so I have to take into account that it’s relative. Anyway, I bet you and PRMerger are both good people.

 

[PRmerger]

Oh good grief. I don’t know why I bother. Being open minded is about more than saying one is open minded.

Hey! Are you still going by your statement that the Easter Rite Catholics differ from the Latin Rite Catholics on transubstantiation, original sin, the papacy?

If so, can you cite your sources?

 

[PRmerger]

Hi PRMerger:

-Many scholars think the first Christians were basically Jews who believed in Jesus. There are a lot of accounts of them for the most part remaining with the Temple until about the time of it’s destruction by the Romans, but these Jews who believed in Jesus persisted more or less until about the 5th century. Over time, what would become “The Church” defined itself.

Yes, that is absolutely true.

-On the second question, it is thought that Church fathers like Irenaeus and many others were very familiar with Gnostic writings, and knew the content pretty well. This is because of some of the comments they made. The other possibility is that they were bluffing. Either way, they didn’t like the Gnostics.

Yes.

Because of persecution, most of these Gnostics went underground because at the time persecution could, and often did cost people their lives. For this reason, any good copies of these writings had vanished until about the mid 20th century when a good number of ancient codices started being found.

Are you saying that the Gnostics were persecuted by the early “Catholic” Christians? Or were they also being persecuted by the pagans?

I will say openly that I don’t subscribe to the view that because one form of teaching prevailed for most of this time that it is the right view. I also wouldn’t say that the Gnostics had the right view either. There are too many versions for me to see a lot of credibility in any of them past some of the very basic ideas. This doesn’t make me a cynical wise-guy though. It’s a major problem in the development of my own faith. I find it quite troubling.

Thanks!
Sufjon

I understand, Sufjon. Your question is a valid one.

The question seems to be: if there are a multitude of ancient “Christian” writings, (see here for a non-exhaustive listing) how do we determine if any of them are theopneustos? Clearly, this question operates from the viewpoint that God exists and has given us His Word. The task from this POV is which of the writings *are *inspired.

If one operates from the agnostic POV in which there may or may not be a God, would it not be irrelevant to question whether theopneustos writings even exist?

 

[Auburn88]

When people are Church shopping, do they try out Catholic Churches? If they do, what would encourage them to stay?

I think my family’s church shopping days are over, but I know that in previous days, when we were looking for a new church, we never considered Catholic churches because (a) we do not agree with the doctrines and practices of Catholicism and (b) because Catholic churches don’t want us.

 

[4Squarebaby]

I think my family’s church shopping days are over, but I know that in previous days, when we were looking for a new church, we never considered Catholic churches because (a) we do not agree with the doctrines and practices of Catholicism and (b) because Catholic churches don’t want us.

They don’t want you or once they get you change in you is expected?

 

[Nicea325]

I actually tried a Catholic Church for the first time Friday.
No one really talked to me, but there were only like 10 people there because it was a lunchtime weekday Mass. I’m sure on a Sunday, it would have been different.
But I am planning on going back; it was intriguing.
I feel like one thing that kind of made me uncomfortable was the standing/kneeling/sitting/repeating patterns that I didn’t know, and felt lost during them.

It is okay if you did not know the rituals. You should approach a priest and have him explain why we as Catholics bow or genuflect.

 

[Nicea325]

I think my family’s church shopping days are over, but I know that in previous days, when we were looking for a new church, we never considered Catholic churches because (a) we do not agree with the doctrines and practices of Catholicism and (b) because Catholic churches don’t want us.

Of course not! People always want Christianity to adapt and form to one’s personal beliefs and agendas instead of the other way around. One of the many reasons why there exist so many ‘feel-good’ churches today.

 

[Auburn88]

They don’t want you or once they get you change in you is expected?

They don’t want us.

 

[Auburn88]

Of course not! People always want Christianity to adapt and form to one’s personal beliefs and agendas instead of the other way around. One of the many reasons why there exist so many ‘feel-good’ churches today.

Agreed.

 

[Sufjon]

Are you saying that the Gnostics were persecuted by the early “Catholic” Christians? Or were they also being persecuted by the pagans?

The question seems to be: if there are a multitude of ancient “Christian” writings, (see here for a non-exhaustive listing) how do we determine if any of them are theopneustos? Clearly, this question operates from the viewpoint that God exists and has given us His Word. The task from this POV is which of the writings *are *inspired.

If one operates from the agnostic POV in which there may or may not be a God, would it not be irrelevant to question whether theopneustos writings even exist?

Hi PRMerger: Thanks as usual for the reply. On the first question, I have sen a lot written on persecution of Gnostics by mainstream Christianity of the time, but I haven’t ever run into anything suggesting that pagans did. That’s not to say they didn’t. References to persecution of the Gnostics by the faction of the Church that eventually became Roman Catholic are made in a number of publications, most of them with good credentials. Of course, I always like to provide some when I can, and so here are a few: Bauer, Walter (1971). Orthodoxy and Heresy in Earliest Christianity. ISBN 0–8006–1363–5.; Pagels, Elaine (1979). The Gnostic Gospels. ISBN 0–679–72453–2.; Ehrman, Bart D. (2003). Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew. New York: Oxford. ISBN 0–19–514183–0. R. Gerberding and J. H. Moran Cruz, Medieval Worlds (New York: Houghton Mifflin Company, 2004) Ehrman, Bart D. (2003). Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew. New York: Oxford. ISBN 0-19-514183-0., Bock, Darrell L. The Missing Gospels: Unearthing the Truth Behind Alternative Christianities / ISBN 978-0785212942, Cambridge History of Christianity Volume 1, Origins to Constantine Series: Cambridge History of Christianity by Frances M. Young ISBN 9780521812399

As for the second question, my opinion, and again, this is my opinion, so it isn’t qualified in any way is that all of them were inspired. I think the fact that God is so far beyond our comprehension is a significant contributor in our tendency to gets some things wrong. So, I think all of them got some things right and all of them got some things wrong. While I am agnostic, it’s more in the sense that I am forming a view. I do believe in something. My personal view is to see it more in line with an Atman, or Purushottama. A universal soul of which you and I are part of if you would. In one sense, that would include Jesus like it would anyone, and could easily include Jesus in the more traditional sense as the Son of God. This is the part I am trying to get my head around. For me, it’s going to boil down to the meaning of some of the things He said, and beyond that, what He actually said. Vetting the sources is a tough endeavor.

Thanks as usual for your patience and kindness,
Sufjon