Church should be poor?

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aball1035

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I have a protestant friend who says that the Catholic Church isn’t doing the right thing by creating all these magnificent cathedrals and expensive religious monuments and the like. The Church should be poor and help people. He says

“While they are beautiful, I think they are superfluous. I think they go against what the rest of the gospel/bible talks about. There is a constant theme of social justice, giving to the poor and the call for the distribution of wealth.”

What do you all think of this?
 
Eh, that’s a basic argument of some protestants. These types who argue this find even the most minute of things to try to mock catholics.
A place of worship honors God. It houses Jesus Christ himself. Also, it inspires love of God through it’s outward appearance. You never know whether a religious picture or something in the church could inspire a conversion. 🙂

The roman catholic church is the #1 most charitable group in the world. Ask them what rank their church is.
 
What do they expect us to do? Knock down 1000 year old Gothic cathedrals that don’t even really belong per se to, say the bishop? They belong to all the people of the parish. Do we knock down the cathedral, give each person in a parish a brick or a pane of stained glass, and then dig up all the graves of the deceased parishioners so they get their share? What if not everybody in the parish WANTS the cathedral knocked down? And how do we know what the dead people would have voted?🤷
 
Well to that I Say not much for a picture speaks alot more than my humble words



And a little of this…


Ohh yea and this
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

I don’t know I am a man of few words 🤷
 
The funny thing is this:

If for some reason every Catholic in the world went to the Pope and the bishops and said, “Oh please, Holy Father, take every single Church and sell it. Get rid of every single item there. Melt down the chalices, sell the paintings and the sculptures and the Vatican itself, fire the Swiss guards, fire every working person (after all, they’ll get $$$ from the sale proceeds), sell the relics, sell EVERYTHING and give the money to the poor”. . .

when all was said and done you would have:

Every poor person in the world would, at the most ‘liberal estimate’ receive at most a one-time gift of perhaps as much as $10. (there are a LOT of poor people and there aren’t that many people who can afford priceless works of art, so there won’t be a huge market with resultant high profits. Bill Gates will pick up dozens of works for a song.

Meanwhile, all the churches that were built by good pious people for God’s glory will be either razed, or turned to profane use.

All the works of art which were once enjoyed by everyone free will be in the hands of a few superrich and either kept sequestered or shown for extortionate profit.

And here’s the biggest shocker. . .after all that, within a couple of generations, even if the Church had been made completely bankrupt, there was not a church anywhere and all the priests and nuns were living on the streets. . .

Within a couple of generations, there would once again be churches made as beautiful as possible for the glory of God.
There would be beautiful works of art given to the Church for the glory of God.
People would build convents and monasteries for the nuns and priests.
Everything would start from scratch. . .and ultimately, once again, the Church would be the custodian of great and pious works for the Lord. . would be building schools and hospitals and running all sorts of charitable enterprises. . .

Just as it does now.
 
aball1035 said:
I have a protestant friend who says that the Catholic Church isn’t doing the right thing by creating all these magnificent cathedrals and expensive religious monuments and the like. The Church should be poor and help people. He says

“While they are beautiful, I think they are superfluous. I think they go against what the rest of the gospel/bible talks about. There is a constant theme of social justice, giving to the poor and the call for the distribution of wealth.”

What do you all think of this?
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First, the Catholic Church is the largest charity in the world, and for that matter, in history.

Second, I read that it has been estimated that if the Vatican sold everything off, the proceeds would feed the world’s poor only for about a week.

Thirdly, for poor people, sometimes the church is the only beautiful thing or peaceful place in their lives. And much of what is in a church as well as the church itself was donated through the hard work of people who wanted to contribute beauty to the glory of God.
 
I would say that God is more important then poor people.
 
I think giving to the poor is definitely important. And the church should - and does - give to those in need.

However, I also think it’s important to have places that are beautiful, awe-inspiring and soul-lifting. When you walk into a beautiful church, you can’t help but think of God. There is a very real presence there. It’s like all your troubles are forgotten as you think of majesty and wonder of God.

For example, I took three Pentecostal friends to an old church once (not during a service). These are people who go to church every Sunday. Jesus is a very real presence in their life. But as they stepped into this church, a change can over them. It’s hard to describe, but it’s like they had a respect for God that I had never seen before. Yes, they loved him. Yes, they worshipped him. But walking into this old church reminded them of something greater maybe than how they usually thought of him.

It’s really hard to put this in words. But that’s kind of the point. These old, beautiful churches show people something that can’t be put into words. And I do believe we need this.

Liz
 
aball1035 said:
I have a protestant friend who says that the Catholic Church isn’t doing the right thing by creating all these magnificent cathedrals and expensive religious monuments and the like. The Church should be poor and help people. He says

“While they are beautiful, I think they are superfluous. I think they go against what the rest of the gospel/bible talks about. There is a constant theme of social justice, giving to the poor and the call for the distribution of wealth.”

What do you all think of this?
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While he was in Bethany, reclining at the table in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper, a woman came with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, made of pure nard. She broke the jar and poured the perfume on his head.
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Some of those present were saying indignantly to one another, “Why this waste of perfume? It could have been sold for more than a year’s wages[a] and the money given to the poor.” And they rebuked her harshly.
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“Leave her alone,” said Jesus. “Why are you bothering her? She has done a beautiful thing to me. The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me. She did what she could. She poured perfume on my body beforehand to prepare for my burial. I tell you the truth, wherever the gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her.”
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Mark 14

For the Protestants, what he says might be true. For Catholics, where Christ is present in on the Altar and in the Tabernacle, Mark 14 would apply.

I would also ask your friend to read Exodus 25 and ask him why God commanded that the tent (tabernacle) of the Lord, use so much gold.

Would your friend have told Moses that he misunderstood God and God really wanted all that wealth to be used for social justice?
 
The church is poor believe it or not. The church has acquired throughout 2000 years, several things that are probably very expensive. But the Church does’t have much in the way of liquid assets. It’s monetary worth is in it’s property…

The income of the Vatican isn’t much more than their operating expenses. Operating expenses to lead a flock of over a billion people is quite expensive. You need a place for your people to worship, so instead of using double-wides, they use the old cathedrals that have been around a very long time. New churches, although some are still very big, aren’t the huge gothic cathedrals of years past. Most of the statues and gold and everything that the Church has in it’s possession are priceless gifts. Much of the maintenence on the buildings in the vatican are volunteer or donations. Like someone said above, I think the total worth of all of the buildings and propery of the vatican is a couple hundred million dollars. Which seems like a lot, but really it’s far less than the cost of helping millions of people around the world. They would actually lose money selling off the property.
 
For some reason, when a lot of nonCatholics speak of “the Church”, when referring to themselves or other nonCatholics, they mean the community of all believers, the people. When referring to Catholics, suddenly they mean The Vatican, and they believe that it’s some giant corporation and the Pope is the CEO, and like all CEOS, he’s a billionaire! :rolleyes: What they can’t seem to get their minds around is that everything the Catholic Church has is from its’ members. From St. Peter’s Basilica and the artwork in the Vatican all the way down to your corner parish church and it’s stainglass and statues, this was all bought or created by donations from the people. It’s OURS. If we’re expected to sell everything and give it to the poor, are the nonCatholics going to sell their church buildings, pulpits, and Bibles (you could get about 50 cent for a used Bible and put it in the Salvation Army kettle) as well? Just because their buildings are plain, they could still turn a profit for charity!

I just don’t think they understand beauty, and the place for beauty in worship and as a means to lift the soul to God. They’re almost like the…Gnostics, was it? some heretical group, anyway, that hated the body and all things physical. Catholics worship corporally, because God gave us our bodies and senses, and they are good. It’s just a vastly different mindset, and our beautiful buidlings and artwork highlights that, and it makes them uncomfortable, so they use the oh-so-lame excuse that we’re somehow neglecting the poor (when, as previously mentioned, the Church does more to help the poor than any other organization-religious or otherwise) to critisize us for it.

The argument gets so old and tiresome!

In Christ,

Ellen
 
This is really amazing to me.

You guys get all worked up over one persons opinion about being rich or poor. Your reactions are literally priceless. This person probably asked the question just to see what kind of reaction they’d get from everyone.

Do you honestly think that most Christians woiuld want you to tear down your cathederals and churches because of one persons opinion on whether the Catholic Church should be rich or poor?? It’s utterly ridiculous to even suggest such a thing. I think its really extreme to even dignify that persons question with a response.
 
gamewell45 said:
This is really amazing to me.

You guys get all worked up over one persons opinion about being rich or poor. Your reactions are literally priceless. This person probably asked the question just to see what kind of reaction they’d get from everyone.

Do you honestly think that most Christians woiuld want you to tear down your cathederals and churches because of one persons opinion on whether the Catholic Church should be rich or poor?? It’s utterly ridiculous to even suggest such a thing. I think its really extreme to even dignify that persons question with a response.
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The question posed is a common one that Catholics face. (I am surprised that Episcopalians don’t face it too–they also own some beautiful property.)

So it’s a question that needs to be addressed lest it form a barrier to the questioner’s turning to the Fullness of Faith.

ETA: The answer also reveals more of the Catholic Faith, and that too is important.
 
Take for instance Michelangelo’s Pieta. Held in St. Peters. Held on trust for the world. I was in St. Peters a few weeks ago and among other things was able, free of charge to see probably the most famous sculpture in the world. All the treasures the Chruch owns are held on trust for the world.

I am lucky enough to have visited Chartres as well. Possibly the most beautiful cathedral in the world. Do we knock it down? Do we feel ashamed of it? No we who are lucky enough to visit it are transported by the grace of being there. Weare uplifted, That is what beauty serves to do.

Chartres, The Pieta. Two of the greatest treasures in the world, two of the most beautiful hymns to God’s grace and man’s creativity…free to walk in and seeand held in trust by the Holy Church for the world.
 
St_Francis said:
The question posed is a common one that Catholics face. (I am surprised that Episcopalians don’t face it too–they also own some beautiful property.)

So it’s a question that needs to be addressed lest it form a barrier to the questioner’s turning to the Fullness of Faith.

ETA: The answer also reveals more of the Catholic Faith, and that too is important.
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For that matter, why don’t the Orthodox get asked this question? Most of their churches are stunning!

Another point is that you can’t really sell many of these churches and cathedrals and turn them into anything else anyway. What could you possibly do with them??? That said, I would expect that any future Sistine Chapel Starbucks would genuinely strive to have better-than-average coffee… lol (I’m NOT holding my breath!)
 
aball1035 said:
I have a protestant friend who says that the Catholic Church isn’t doing the right thing by creating all these magnificent cathedrals and expensive religious monuments and the like. The Church should be poor and help people. He says

“While they are beautiful, I think they are superfluous. I think they go against what the rest of the gospel/bible talks about. There is a constant theme of social justice, giving to the poor and the call for the distribution of wealth.”

What do you all think of this?
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Where is your protestant friend’s Criticism of those Mega-Churches & their philosophy of Gain with God. Seems a little hypocritical of him when every church - His Included - begs for Money to do works of Goodness whether for their own, their community or those far away. Hard to feed the Hungry with empty coffers. hard to shelter your flock without a building.

His comment was probably just a cheap shot at the Church as his double-standard clearly demonstrates.

Lastly many of these Cathedrals were made over decades by the voluntary labor of love of the local artisans & craftsmen. Built with materials that were donated or paid for by the people in addition to their regular Church contributions. In short, People suffered & sacrificed to build an edifice to glorify God, to house their hopes & dreams and all they held sacred. A place where they could gather to worship God & to gather the sheaves that would be used to feed His flock. A base from which God’s Message could be sent forth into the world.

I hope this helps & that you can use it to correct your friends ‘vision’ problem.

Yours in Christ 🙂
 
aball1035 said:
I have a protestant friend who says that the Catholic Church isn’t doing the right thing by creating all these magnificent cathedrals and expensive religious monuments and the like. The Church should be poor and help people. He says

“While they are beautiful, I think they are superfluous. I think they go against what the rest of the gospel/bible talks about. There is a constant theme of social justice, giving to the poor and the call for the distribution of wealth.”

What do you all think of this?
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When I hear this I always wonder if those people would be willing to give away all of their possessions? After all they seem to have very strong convictions about that. Also Evangelicals like going all out on their Churches when they’re successful as well. And why not? It shows respect.
 
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