Church Social Teaching and Gun Control

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As a non-American I find it hard to understand your love affair with guns. I pray that you will be able to come to a peaceful agreement on how to avoid tragedies like the deaths of those young children and their teachers. I think that if we are prolife we can’t be unconcerned about the dangers of guns. I cannot imagine a situation in which Our Lord would carry a gun.
The real and potentially mortal danger posed by a gun is a mighty powerful pro-life argument when aimed at somebody determined to commit deadly violence against the innocent.

Besides, our imagination is not a determining factor in deciding what’s right or wrong. Nor is it relevant in determining true Christian doctrine. And the right of self-defense has been settled Catholic teaching for at least seven centuries.
 
As a non-American I find it hard to understand your love affair with guns. I pray that you will be able to come to a peaceful agreement on how to avoid tragedies like the deaths of those young children and their teachers. I think that if we are prolife we can’t be unconcerned about the dangers of guns. I cannot imagine a situation in which Our Lord would carry a gun.
A while back I was in discussion about this very thing with a friend of mine who was a Carmelite priest. I had just read a book, can’t remember the name now though, but it was a history of the Carmel of the St. Elias province. New York. And I came across a section discussing how the Carmelite brothers earlier in the century were busily running guns back and forth between the U.S. and Ireland, and gathering donations to purchase more weapons for their Irish brothers to solve the “Irish problem”.

Apparently even the contemplative orders can imagine a situation in which Our Lord would carry a gun, even as he carried a whip to clean the temple out. Even more to the point, I doubt very strongly Our Lord would condemn anyone for the act of owning a handgun for self defense and defense of the family.
 
One of the subtopics of this discussion deals with whether our assent is required when individual bishops, or even the entire Magisterium, makes a prudential judgment.
As I have tried to explain, I cannot publicly debate this subject with you. My current obligations to obedience and Canon law, which are likely different than yours, do not permit it.

However, I can gladly encourage anyone who is interested in what the Church teaches on this subject to read the last two links you provided in their entirety. I cannot comment on the first two articles because the links are broken (and also do not appear to be Magisterium documents).

I know it can be tempting to accept summaries and interpretations from others, but consider, link 3:

ndcatholic.org/editorials/june04/index.html

Contains this:

"2. The bishop is entitled to deference and consideration, even in matters of prudential judgment.

Although a bishop’s position may not always be binding, it is due serious consideration. The bishop, as a successor to the apostles, is our teacher, shepherd, and pastor. The Gospel has consequences for how we order society and a bishop has a proper role in bringing these consequences light in the development of public policy. Even if legitimate differences can exist, serious consideration and deference to the bishop’s view would seem proper for any Catholic that believes what the Church teaches about the episcopacy and the social implications of the faith."

That is a bishop, singular. When bishops act collegially, as a group, they carry still more authority. I could keep quoting, but I want people to read things like “The church’s experience deserves consideration.” and “[T]he mere fact that there is no “absolute” teaching on a political issue does not mean that we are free to act in whatever way “feels” right.” for themselves!

Although the document looks very theologically sound to me, it is an editorial, not a comprehensive pastoral brief (no citations, footnotes, etc.), and it is from the North Dakota Catholic Conference (which represents the bishops of one state).

The forth link:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19900524_theologian-vocation_en.html

Is Doctrinal instruction from the Congregation of the Doctrine of the faith and very authoritative. I would strongly, strongly, recommend anyone interested in this subject to read it in its entirety and determine for themselves if the quote just provided is really in context or relevant. After all, the same document includes this, a specific explanation of the appropriate response to teachings at three different levels (divine revelation to a teaching which is not even definitive):

"23. When the Magisterium of the Church makes an infallible pronouncement and solemnly declares that a teaching is found in Revelation, the assent called for is that of theological faith. This kind of adherence is to be given even to the teaching of the ordinary and universal Magisterium when it proposes for belief a teaching of faith as divinely revealed.

When the Magisterium proposes “in a definitive way” truths concerning faith and morals, which, even if not divinely revealed, are nevertheless strictly and intimately connected with Revelation, these must be firmly accepted and held.(22)

When the Magisterium, not intending to act “definitively”, teaches a doctrine to aid a better understanding of Revelation and make explicit its contents, or to recall how some teaching is in conformity with the truths of faith, or finally to guard against ideas that are incompatible with these truths, the response called for is that of the religious submission of will and intellect.(23) This kind of response cannot be simply exterior or disciplinary but must be understood within the logic of faith and under the impulse of obedience to the faith."

The third paragraph would seem to be directly on point for the question at hand. Footnote 23 is a citation of Lumen Gentium #25, the paragraph from the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church which I quoted previously.

This really must be my last word on the subject, but I implore anyone reading this to READ WHAT THE CHURCH HAS TO SAY! At least two of the links are as good a place to start as any. We are an apostolic church, take advantage of it. There is no extra cost, it comes with your membership! 😉
 
Will the real Catholics please kneel down?
I think you might want to worry about your own beam. Your off-topic ad homimem attacks upon the Catholic Church was totally uncalled for. Your use of the word “hypocrite” and most of your post was slanderous and uncharitable.

The topic Church teaching on gun control not how much you hate bishops. They carry the teaching authority of the Catholic Church as a continuation of the promise of the Holy Spirit. If you want to dissent from what the Church teaches, that is your perogative, but don’t shoot the messengers lest you find yourself kicking against the goads.
 
As a non-American I find it hard to understand your love affair with guns. I pray that you will be able to come to a peaceful agreement on how to avoid tragedies like the deaths of those young children and their teachers. I think that if we are prolife we can’t be unconcerned about the dangers of guns. I cannot imagine a situation in which Our Lord would carry a gun.
It is not a love affair. It is a part of our culture. We were a wilderness country as guns became more easily produced. As to whether Jesus would carry a gun, he scarcely needed one. His life was safe until he chose to lay it down.
 
I think the OP raises an important distinction between legitimate self defense resulting in the death of an attacker, and deliberate use of deadly force.

It goes further, however, as even the NRA have acknowledged - to rehearse, imagine, dwell upon the act of violently killing another human being is itself a grave sin. In the same way as imagining yourself committing adultery and dwelling on the fantasy would itself be a mortal sin whether or not you actually do it, in the same way such thoughts are a grave sin against the 5th commandment.

This is significant when you consider the ‘tactical’ side of a tactical weapons ban. What is going through someone’s head when they stockpile military assault rifles in their home? Are they not doing so on the basis of where they can most easily access them if they need to kill other human beings? When they fire these at a weapons range, are they imagining killing other human beings? If they train with a militia, are they not imagining a war scenario against their fellow human beings? The concept of ‘tactical’ weaponry is that you define your ‘tactics’ in order to be the most efficient killer. Before you have killed one person, you have killed him hundreds of times in tactical scenarios in your mind. That is not spiritually healthy (also not socially or psychologically healthy in my opinion).

Hunting rifles are one thing, picking up a hunting rifle and using it to shoot an intruder to protect your home is one thing, but, as my wife put it, who needs a 200 round clip to shoot a deer?
 
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This discussion is getting quite interesting. I’ll be watching carefully. 🙂
 
When the Magisterium, not intending to act “definitively”, teaches a doctrine to aid a better understanding of Revelation and make explicit its contents, or to recall how some teaching is in conformity with the truths of faith, or finally to guard against ideas that are incompatible with these truths, the response called for is that of the religious submission of will and intellect.(23) This kind of response cannot be simply exterior or disciplinary but must be understood within the logic of faith and under the impulse of obedience to the faith."

The third paragraph would seem to be directly on point for the question at hand. Footnote 23 is a citation of Lumen Gentium #25, the paragraph from the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church which I quoted previously.
You continue to confuse doctrinal statements with prudential judgements, and, it seems, you try to pretend that the submission due to doctrine somehow… I don’t know… “transfers” to prudential judgements. This is evident especially in your repeated insistence on the importance of Lumen Gentium 25, which is about the former, not the latter.

Why do you do this? Do you actually not understand the difference? Or do you not want to acknowledge the difference?

It comes to mind, though, that you also confuse CCC # 2264 and # 2265 in a similar fashion. Do you do engage in this confusion on purpose? Or are you simply unaware of the confusion you are engaging in?
 
I cannot publicly debate this subject with you. My current obligations to obedience and Canon law, which are likely different than yours, do not permit it.
There is nothing whatever in Canon law or Church teaching that prohibits a discussion of … Church teaching.
I know it can be tempting to accept summaries and interpretations from others, but consider, link 3: Contains this:
"2. The bishop is entitled to deference and consideration, even in matters of prudential judgment.
Although a bishop’s position may not always be binding, it is due serious consideration.
Yes, this is the point I’ve been making - in matters of prudential judgment bishops’ statements are not binding. They are due consideration but not obedience.
That is a bishop, singular. When bishops act collegially, as a group, they carry still more authority. I could keep quoting, but I want people to read things like “The church’s experience deserves consideration.”
What part of “deserves consideration” equates to “must be assented to”? Nor does the number of bishops matter: either they are acting collegially with all the other bishops and with Rome or they are not. * However, if this unanimity is lacking, a majority alone of the Bishops of a Conference cannot issue a declaration as authentic teaching of the Conference to which all the faithful of the territory would have to adhere, unless it obtains the recognitio of the Apostolic See*. (Apostolos Suos #22)
Although the document looks very theologically sound to me, it is an editorial, not a comprehensive pastoral brief (no citations, footnotes, etc.), and it is from the North Dakota Catholic Conference (which represents the bishops of one state).
The bishops of North Dakota have issued a statement. If their statement is not binding then neither are statements from other bishops. You cannot assert that we must always accept the prudential opinions of bishops while at the same time rejecting the statement of these particular bishops. (And theirs, by the way, is not a prudential judgment; it is an explanation of Church teaching.)
The forth link:
Is Doctrinal instruction from the Congregation of the Doctrine of the faith and very authoritative. I would strongly, strongly, recommend anyone interested in this subject to read it in its entirety and determine for themselves if the quote just provided is really in context or relevant. After all, the same document includes this, a specific explanation of the appropriate response to teachings at three different levels (divine revelation to a teaching which is not even definitive):
I covered this before; it is what is taught in LG 25. There are three types of teaching: things declared infallible, things taught infallibly, and teachings of the ordinary Magisterium (what you refer to as “not even definitive”.) None of this pertains to prudential judgments.

Ender
 
Let’s cut to the chase here.

Is it a sin to own a gun?

Is it a sin to defend one’s self?
 
continued quote…

His argument does sound very convincing, and if the Church really teaches this, why is it that so many American Catholics refuse to yield to the bishops and continue to support ‘gun-rights’? I’m just kindly asking a question, and I hope it doesn’t lead to a flame war 😛

Thanks and God bless!
Are you suggesting that all gun-owning Catholics turn in their guns to the government?
 
Let’s cut to the chase here.

Is it a sin to own a gun?

Is it a sin to defend one’s self?
It’s not so much the issue of gun ownership, which, lets face it, will never be outlawed in America. It’s about tactical weapons, weapons like sub-machine guns which can’t possibly be for hunting or target practice, but which have the sole purpose of killing other human beings.

I would draw an analogy between the 5th commandment and the 6th:

If I fantasise about committing adultery, I visit websites and talk to others about how it’s done, I start stockpiling condoms, and sometimes I sit alone, put one on, and imagine what it would be like if that hot girl from work was there, I think everyone would agree that I would be in a serious state of grave sin, even if I never commit adultery.

In the same way, if I review ‘tactics’ for an efficient kill, stockpile assault weapons, train and practice for the act of deliberately killing (even if I say it is killing in ‘self-defense’ there is still a big difference between self defence where someone dies and deliberately killing an attacker), I would argue that you are basically coveting the kill, even if you never fire your gun in anger.
 
Hmmm, I did ask my priest who studied lots of Social Doctrine about this one, and he said that Americans aren’t currently engaged in a Just War where civilians must be armed to defend themselves, also defending one’s self from the ‘mean old man coming to rape your family and burn your house’ is too hypothetical, extreme, and near non-existent a situation to justify the use of civilian hand-gun use, but what is truly apparent are the constant cases of mentally-unstable people easily and almost effortlessly obtaining a gun and shooting hundreds of innocent children and civilians. Most people won’t side with the bishops on gun control unless it’s one of their children who has become a victim of a shooting. There are plenty of other countries out there that have extremely strict laws about civilian hand-gun use, even to civilians not owning guns, and they live perfectly fine. We don’t have to use guns to defend ourselves, and even if a situation were to arise where the mean old man comes to steal our stuff and burn our house, will a gun really be able to stop him? It seems like guns in civilian hands have caused more problems than they have solved. Also, he said that many people, both on the left and right, could care less about what the bishops, the shepherds of the people, have to say. He said that leftists claim “It’s my body; I can abort this baby despite what the bishops say” and the rightists claim “It’s my right to defend myself and use whatever means to do it”. My priest also said that it is the general consensus of the Church that civilians should not own hand-guns in a stable and law-abiding society as the United States that is not engaged in a Just War, and it would not be right to oppose the Church when one claims to be Catholic. The Church is a promoter of peace, and one should obey what it sees to be the best way to promote it.
Hmmmm…my parish priest is an avid hunter and this requires ownership of a gun. He has several and is a pretty good shot. I know this for fact because I’ve hunted with him. Which priest is right or should I tell mine he better go to Confession.
 
It’s not so much the issue of gun ownership, which, lets face it, will never be outlawed in America. It’s about tactical weapons, weapons like sub-machine guns which can’t possibly be for hunting or target practice, but which have the sole purpose of killing other human beings…
Submachine guns? Do you realize how regulated those things are and how much paperwork you have to go through to purchace one? Let alone the purchace price of one (the “cheap ones” are in the teens, the more expensive ones run over $100,000).

Not to mention the fact how rare it is that one commits a crime with one - since 1968 only two registered automatic weapons have been used to commit a crime - both were committed by police officers. All “legally” civilian owned automatic weapons are registered with the BATF.

For more information go here:

atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-machine-guns.html
 
Hmmmm…my parish priest is an avid hunter and this requires ownership of a gun. He has several and is a pretty good shot. I know this for fact because I’ve hunted with him. Which priest is right or should I tell mine he better go to Confession.
Mine was an avid bird hunter that took me to hunt with him several times because my father allowed him to hunt on our land. He had a beautiful Remington 1100 shotgun. I don’t recall him reminding me to confess my sins for hunting with him.
 
continued quote…

His argument does sound very convincing, and if the Church really teaches this, why is it that so many American Catholics refuse to yield to the bishops and continue to support ‘gun-rights’? I’m just kindly asking a question, and I hope it doesn’t lead to a flame war 😛

Thanks and God bless!
Maybe it’s because the church doesn’t teach this.
 
Let’s cut to the chase here.

Is it a sin to own a gun? Is it a sin to defend one’s self?
No and no. The Church’s position on the right of self defense, including the use of deadly force, has been promulgated unchanged in every catechism she has produced. She has said nothing directly about guns because the specific means used are not relevant. What is relevant is that the force used was appropriate to the situation.If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful… Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one’s own life than of another’s. (CCC 2264,1997)
  • “It is lawful to kill when fighting in a just war; when carrying out by order of the Supreme Authority a sentence of death in punishment of a crime; and, finally, in cases of necessary and lawful defense of one’s own life against an unjust aggressor.”* (Catechism of Pius X, 1905)
Q. 1276. Under what circumstances may human life be lawfully taken?
A. Human life may be lawfully taken:

    1. In self-defense, when we are unjustly attacked and have no other means of saving our own lives;* (Baltimore Catechism, 1891)
Q. 484. Is it not lawful to kill in any cause?
A. Yes, in a just war, or when public justice requires it: “For the magistrate beareth not the sword without cause.” Rom. i. 4. As also in the blameless defence of our own, or our innocent neighbour’s life, against an unjust invader.
(The Douay Catechism, 1649)

If a man kill another in self defence, having used every means consistent with his own safety to avoid the infliction of death, he evidently does not violate this Commandment. (Catechism of Trent, 1566)
Ender
 
It is not a love affair. It is a part of our culture. We were a wilderness country as guns became more easily produced. As to whether Jesus would carry a gun, he scarcely needed one. His life was safe until he chose to lay it down.
On the other hand, The Holy Father has quite an arsenal carried by the Swiss Guard when he’s in public.
 
As a non-American I find it hard to understand your love affair with guns. I pray that you will be able to come to a peaceful agreement on how to avoid tragedies like the deaths of those young children and their teachers. I think that if we are prolife we can’t be unconcerned about the dangers of guns. I cannot imagine a situation in which Our Lord would carry a gun.
No, but in the garden of Gethsemane Peter was permitted by Jesus to carry a sword. Two thousand years ago, a sword was the equivalent of the modern day gun. Peter didn’t carry it to peel grapes. Our Holy Father is also rather well protected by the Swiss Guard who carry very modern weapons.
 
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