Church swap with Mormons

[pmccombs]

And if you think you can discern truth through “feelings” then I think you should find a spiritual director to help you. I might “feel” that I can fly, but when I step off of that ten story building the objective truth of gravity will win every time.

I don’t know if you are directing your comment to me specifically, but I am an agnostic and a nihilist as well as a practicing Mormon, and I think it most likely that there is no possible way to know “objective” religious truth at all.

As for what the Mormons believe regarding this matter, I think Richard Bushman put it best:

"*It is very hard for a Mormon to believe that Christians accept the bible because of the scholarly evidence confirming the historical accuracy of the work. Surely there are uneducated believers whose convictions are not rooted in academic knowledge. Isn’t there some kind of human, existential truth that resonates with one’s desires for goodness and divinity? And isn’t that ultimately why we read the bible as a devotional work? We don’t have to read the latest issues of the journals to find out if the book is still true. We stick with it because we find God in its pages–or inspiration, or comfort, or scope. That is what religion is about in my opinion, and it is why I believe in the Book of Mormon. I can’t really evaluate all the scholarship all the time; while I am waiting for it to settle out, I have to go on living. I need some good to hold on to and lift me up day by day. The Book of Mormon inspires me, and so I hold on. Reason is too frail to base a life on. You can be whipped about by all the authorities with no genuine basis for deciding for yourself. I think it is far better to go where goodness lies.

I keep thinking other Christians are in a similar position, but they don’t agree. They keep insisting their beliefs are based on reason and evidence. I can’t buy that–the resurrection as rational fact? And so I am frankly as perplexed about Christian belief as you are about Mormons. Educated Christians claim to base their belief on reason when I thought faith was the teaching of the scriptures. You hear the Good Shepherd’s voice, and you follow it.*"

Immanuel Kant said stuff like that, when he took David Hume to task for his empiricism. For the Mormon, there must be a spiritual witness to confirm his beliefs. Do not mistake me; there are many very intelligent Mormons who have plenty of rational basis for their beliefs. In the end, though, they seek a spiritual confirmation.

Many Mormons have profound religious experiences regarding their faith, and they interpret this as the voice of God. “What greater witness can you have,” their scriptures teach them, “than from God?”

 

[RebeccaJ]

Possible outcomes are, you will convert to mormonism, they will conver to Catholicism, neither of you will convert.



Every situation is different, and takes prayer and discernment on your part. If it were me, and I got the sense they were really interested in coming to Mass, out of desire to understand Catholic teaching, I would invite them to Mass. If they asked for a “trade”, I would say no thank you.

The real test, after turning down their invitation, is how friendly they remain. My experience is, Mormon neighbors stick to themselves once they know you have no interest in converting to their religion.

 

[Zooey]

Our kids at still toddlers so if we were to go we’d leave them with a sitter after going to Mass. No way was I going to let them in on grown up matters.

Anyways, thanks everyone. I really had a feeling that they have been trying to convert us over the years. We have the most similar family values to them out of th whole block so I figured it would only be a matter to time. Now I just need to word a charitable response.

“thanks for the invite, but we at convicted that the Catholic church is the true church that Jesus Christ established. If you guys want o come over for dinner and talk about of faiths that would be fun.”

I actually feel that is a good answer.
When I am invited to a church service that I do not wish to attend, I tell people the truth: “I have been strongly led of the Lord to become Methodist. This is the place that He wants me, & I am not going to argue. Not with Him!”
I think that any person of faith understands, at least to some extent, that we are called to obedience to what God wants of us, so far as we are able to discern it.

I would enjoy your neighbors’ friendship in settings that are not involved in worship.

 

[TexanKnight]

I don’t know if you are directing your comment to me specifically, but I am an agnostic and a nihilist as well as a practicing Mormon, and I think it most likely that there is no possible way to know “objective” religious truth at all.

As for what the Mormons believe regarding this matter, I think Richard Bushman put it best:

"*It is very hard for a Mormon to believe that Christians accept the bible because of the scholarly evidence confirming the historical accuracy of the work. Surely there are uneducated believers whose convictions are not rooted in academic knowledge. Isn’t there some kind of human, existential truth that resonates with one’s desires for goodness and divinity? And isn’t that ultimately why we read the bible as a devotional work? We don’t have to read the latest issues of the journals to find out if the book is still true. We stick with it because we find God in its pages–or inspiration, or comfort, or scope. That is what religion is about in my opinion, and it is why I believe in the Book of Mormon. I can’t really evaluate all the scholarship all the time; while I am waiting for it to settle out, I have to go on living. I need some good to hold on to and lift me up day by day. The Book of Mormon inspires me, and so I hold on. Reason is too frail to base a life on. You can be whipped about by all the authorities with no genuine basis for deciding for yourself. I think it is far better to go where goodness lies.

I keep thinking other Christians are in a similar position, but they don’t agree. They keep insisting their beliefs are based on reason and evidence. I can’t buy that–the resurrection as rational fact? And so I am frankly as perplexed about Christian belief as you are about Mormons. Educated Christians claim to base their belief on reason when I thought faith was the teaching of the scriptures. You hear the Good Shepherd’s voice, and you follow it.*"

Immanuel Kant said stuff like that, when he took David Hume to task for his empiricism. For the Mormon, there must be a spiritual witness to confirm his beliefs. Do not mistake me; there are many very intelligent Mormons who have plenty of rational basis for their beliefs. In the end, though, they seek a spiritual confirmation.

Many Mormons have profound religious experiences regarding their faith, and they interpret this as the voice of God. “What greater witness can you have,” their scriptures teach them, “than from God?”

I dunno…that seems like double speak from an LDS author. People question the Book of Mormon because there is NO scientific, archaeological, or geographic evidence to support it, so Bushman tries to then find fault with the Bible, even though we KNOW where Jerusalem is, we KNOW where Bethlehem is, etc. You truly can’t compare the two.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I would take their offer. But that is just me. I love how these door knockers have no clue what Eastern Catholicism is

 

[PJM]

=prettygirl711;9783014]My neighbors are Mormon and they have invited us to go to their church one day and said they’d love to go to our church, too. We are both practicing members of our faith with no intention of converting, yet we have noticed subtle hints that they’d love to convert us over the years. I don’t want them to think we are interested in switching, but it would be neat to get them to go to a Catholic Mass for the first time. Thoughts?

PRAY ABOUT IT!

This is a VERY HIGH RISK venture especially if it is known that youe ARE practicing Catholics.

IF you do it; you cannot IN ANY WAY TAKE A ACTIVE PARTICIPATION as they are a CULT, using many of the same terms we do BUT WITH VASTLY differnt understanding of the terms.

They can be very devious. I know from personal experience. YOU MAY EVEN WISH TO DISCUSS THIS BEFORE HAND WITH YOUR PASTOR.

God Bless,
pat /PJM

 

[SteveVH]

I don’t know if you are directing your comment to me specifically, but I am an agnostic and a nihilist as well as a practicing Mormon, and I think it most likely that there is no possible way to know “objective” religious truth at all.

Sounds like you’re pretty confused yourself. I don’t mean to offend you but how can you be all three of these at once?

As for what the Mormons believe regarding this matter, I think Richard Bushman put it best:

"*It is very hard for a Mormon to believe that Christians accept the bible because of the scholarly evidence confirming the historical accuracy of the work. Surely there are uneducated believers whose convictions are not rooted in academic knowledge. Isn’t there some kind of human, existential truth that resonates with one’s desires for goodness and divinity? And isn’t that ultimately why we read the bible as a devotional work? We don’t have to read the latest issues of the journals to find out if the book is still true. We stick with it because we find God in its pages–or inspiration, or comfort, or scope. That is what religion is about in my opinion, and it is why I believe in the Book of Mormon. I can’t really evaluate all the scholarship all the time; while I am waiting for it to settle out, I have to go on living. I need some good to hold on to and lift me up day by day. The Book of Mormon inspires me, and so I hold on. Reason is too frail to base a life on. You can be whipped about by all the authorities with no genuine basis for deciding for yourself. I think it is far better to go where goodness lies.

I keep thinking other Christians are in a similar position, but they don’t agree. They keep insisting their beliefs are based on reason and evidence. I can’t buy that–the resurrection as rational fact? And so I am frankly as perplexed about Christian belief as you are about Mormons. Educated Christians claim to base their belief on reason when I thought faith was the teaching of the scriptures. You hear the Good Shepherd’s voice, and you follow it.*"

Immanuel Kant said stuff like that, when he took David Hume to task for his empiricism. For the Mormon, there must be a spiritual witness to confirm his beliefs. Do not mistake me; there are many very intelligent Mormons who have plenty of rational basis for their beliefs. In the end, though, they seek a spiritual confirmation.

Many Mormons have profound religious experiences regarding their faith, and they interpret this as the voice of God. “What greater witness can you have,” their scriptures teach them, “than from God?”

So feelings trump reason? I don’t think so. I don’t have to be a witness to the resurrection of Jesus Christ in order to “reasonably” believe it. I can take the testimony of those that did witness it, decide if they have credibility and make my decision. But my position as to the truth of the Catholic Church is not based solely on reason, but rather faith and reason. We were given the gift of reason exactly for that purpose; in order to determine truth. So if I am asked to believe in the Book of Mormon through faith, while realizing that it completley lacks reasonable, historic evidence, my “reason” immediately tells me that something is wrong with that picture.

 

[pmccombs]

I dunno…that seems like double speak from an LDS author. People question the Book of Mormon because there is NO scientific, archaeological, or geographic evidence to support it, so Bushman tries to then find fault with the Bible, even though we KNOW where Jerusalem is, we KNOW where Bethlehem is, etc. You truly can’t compare the two.

Huh? I don’t see anywhere in his commentary where Bushman finds fault with the Bible. That has nothing at all to do with the point he is trying to make. If he’s anything like the Mormons I know, he probably reveres the Bible.

He said that he thought there was a type of non-academic people who read the book because of some feeling of faith they have–because the book speaks to them on some spiritual level–not because academic journals have the empirical evidence that shows it all to be true. I thought that was pretty clear, but we can dissect the grammar if it isn’t. Luckily I’m an expert in natural language processing and am qualified to show you how to algorithmically parse Bushman’s writing.

My point is that Mormons think that there has to be some spiritual dimension to their testimony of truth, and that is what Bushman is talking about. Mormons want God’s (name removed by moderator)ut. They believe that getting people to come to their worship services will help them to sense those spiritual things. And whether you agree with them or not, they also think there are plenty of rational and objective reasons to believe.

The OP seemed to think that a Mormon going to a Catholic Mass might be a good thing. Why? Because we’ll all see how rational the liturgy is? We’ll find the empirical evidence laid before us? We’ll suddenly understand reason? Our analysis of the experience will convince us of how logical it is?

Or do you think OP perhaps believed that beauty and truth would speak to these Mormons at some transcendental level, and perhaps they might come to believe?

Chesterton said that the mysteries of God are more satisfying than the solutions of men. Since when has the Catholic Church lost its mystery and become so reasonable? Don’t you also seek the Holy Spirit? Do you now walk only by sight and not by faith?

 

[truthseeker32]

As others have said, it is probably an attempt to convert you. Obviously, Mormons believe Mormonism to be correct in the same way the Catholics believe Catholicism to be and, in the same way we do, think that ideally everyone would convert to their faith. This is not a bad thing, so long as you’re prepared for it, since it also opens up the possibility for you to present your faith to them. This could easily lead to discussions about faith between your two families, and in discussions (that go anywhere) it is necessary that both sides have their say - or, to put it another way, no one will listen to you if you don’t listen to them.

Me and a good protestant friend of mine have each been trying to convert each other for the past 10 years, and while neither of us have succeeded, we have each learned a lot about the other person’s faith and about our own - I learned that faith alone is a bit more nuanced than I had originally thought (though he has yet to convince me that it’s right), and I managed to convince him that we do not worship saints and that praying to them is not entirely insane (though so far as I know, I haven’t convinced him to actually do it), etc.

So it can be valuable for both of you. Again, so long as you’re as prepared to defend your faith as you have to assume they will be to defend theirs. Just be aware that in any sort of conversation of this type, there will be arguments that sound convincing which you will not be able to immediately respond to and will have think about and research and, if you are willing and able to put in the effort, this can be good.

As we say about math, the best way to learn something is to explain it to someone else. It can be a good thing. But if it goes beyond a simple visit to each others churches and turns into a series of discussions, you’ll need to be prepared.

Well said.

I find it hypocritical that a few of you, who would be more than happy to see those of other faiths explore Catholicism, don’t think Catholics should do the same. This may be a big reason different faiths have such a hard time getting through to one another. Holding to this “invite them to your church, but don’t go to theirs” rule seems cowardly and unfair. You will surely object saying “yeah, but ours is the true faith.” They say the same thing. If you want to profit sometimes you have to invest.

 

[pmccombs]

Sounds like you’re pretty confused yourself. I don’t mean to offend you but how can you be all three of these at once?

I’m a nihilist because I’ve looked into the abyss and it has looked into me. I suspect, but do not know, that there is no afterlife and no God to look out for us. I think I shall never know the truth, and I do not believe that such knowledge can be had by mortal men, for our imperfect capacities for reason and experience (even of a spiritual nature) leave us short of certainty. Therefore I am an agnostic. I participate in my Mormon ward because it is the faith of my fathers and of my neighbors, and I think that counts for something. I also believe that religion need not be known, but should certainly be lived. That is how I can be all three at once.

So feelings trump reason? I don’t think so. I don’t have to be a witness to the resurrection of Jesus Christ in order to “reasonably” believe it. I can take the testimony of those that did witness it, decide if they have credibility and make my decision. But my position as to the truth of the Catholic Church is not based solely on reason, but rather faith and reason. We were given the gift of reason exactly for that purpose; in order to determine truth. So if I am asked to believe in the Book of Mormon through faith, while realizing that it completley lacks reasonable, historic evidence, my “reason” immediately tells me that something is wrong with that picture.

Mormons think that it is reasonable to believe in Mormonism and are confirmed by the witness of the Holy Ghost, which touches upon a spiritual sense as surely as light falls upon the eyes. Even after a reasoned approach, it is this spiritual sense which seems to transcend reality itself that factors into the Mormon conversion experience.

 

[prettygirl711]

My neighbors are Mormon and they have invited us to go to their church one day and said they’d love to go to our church, too. We are both practicing members of our faith with no intention of converting, yet we have noticed subtle hints that they’d love to convert us over the years. I don’t want them to think we are interested in switching, but it would be neat to get them to go to a Catholic Mass for the first time. Thoughts?

I actually have no intention of converting them. My job is to live my faith to the fullest and answer questions if people have them. Godis in charge of changing hearts and I can’t make anyone Catholic. I was thinking it would be neat for them to see a Catholic Mass because I know her Mother was Catholic before converting.

We decided not to do the swap but have them over to talk over dinner. I hope we don’t lose their friendship. They are the only other family on our block with conservative values and it’s nice not to feel so isolated.

 

[Marie5890]

I actually have no intention of converting them. My job is to live my faith to the fullest and answer questions if people have them. Godis in charge of changing hearts and I can’t make anyone Catholic. I was thinking it would be neat for them to see a Catholic Mass because I know her Mother was Catholic before converting.

We decided not to do the swap but have them over to talk over dinner. I hope we don’t lose their friendship. They are the only other family on our block with conservative values and it’s nice not to feel so isolated.

Sounds good to me!


I hope they do come over for dinner and your two families continue to be very good friends and neighbors!!

 

[SteveVH]

Mormons think that it is reasonable to believe in Mormonism

Based upon what evidence?

Even after a reasoned approach, it is this spiritual sense which seems to transcend reality itself that factors into the Mormon conversion experience.

What reasoned approach?

 

[WingsOfEagles]

I think that unfortunately as nice as they are, this is a sly way to try and convert you. Up to you, but don’t skip Mass that weekend if you decide to attend theirs as well.

 

[TexanKnight]

Huh? I don’t see anywhere in his commentary where Bushman finds fault with the Bible. That has nothing at all to do with the point he is trying to make. If he’s anything like the Mormons I know, he probably reveres the Bible.

He was showing reasons to doubt the Bible in a vain effort to compare it with the fictional Book of Mormon

He said that he thought there was a type of non-academic people who read the book because of some feeling of faith they have–because the book speaks to them on some spiritual level–not because academic journals have the empirical evidence that shows it all to be true. I thought that was pretty clear, but we can dissect the grammar if it isn’t. Luckily I’m an expert in natural language processing and am qualified to show you how to algorithmically parse Bushman’s writing.

Don’t need it. I understand exactly what he was doing. In fact, I read Rough Stone Rolling when it first came out. Still have it sitting on my shelf

My point is that Mormons think that there has to be some spiritual dimension to their testimony of truth, and that is what Bushman is talking about. Mormons want God’s (name removed by moderator)ut. They believe that getting people to come to their worship services will help them to sense those spiritual things. And whether you agree with them or not, they also think there are plenty of rational and objective reasons to believe.

And I am saying that, if he wants to say that about the Book of Mormon, fine. But don;t compare it to the Bible…a book which has stories that HAVE been confirmed by scientists, archaeologists, and geographers.

The OP seemed to think that a Mormon going to a Catholic Mass might be a good thing. Why? Because we’ll all see how rational the liturgy is? We’ll find the empirical evidence laid before us? We’ll suddenly understand reason? Our analysis of the experience will convince us of how logical it is?

It could happen. Sometimes people are open enough to the truth to accept it.

Or do you think OP perhaps believed that beauty and truth would speak to these Mormons at some transcendental level, and perhaps they might come to believe?

It could happen. Some people allow God to lead them from false churches.

Chesterton said that the mysteries of God are more satisfying than the solutions of men. Since when has the Catholic Church lost its mystery and become so reasonable? Don’t you also seek the Holy Spirit? Do you now walk only by sight and not by faith?

If I did not listen to the Holy Spirit, I would still be LDS. Listening to the Holy Spirit led me out of that church and into the True Church

 

[andrewstx]

I would take their offer. But that is just me. I love how these door knockers have no clue what Eastern Catholicism is

Somehow I just can’t picture mormons kissing icons and prostrating. Thier worship is done for the most part sitting reverenently on their bottoms.

And kissing the cross, mormons hate the cross you won’t find a single cross in their chapels or temples. They beleive the atonement happened in the garden of Gethsemene.

 

[pmccombs]

Based upon what evidence?

What reasoned approach?

I can point you to the various LDS apologetics sites if you are interested in why it is that intelligent and rational Mormons feel they are justified in their beliefs. While I have my own reasons for doubting the arguments put forth by Mormon intellectuals–and I’m sure you have reasons and arguments of your own–there are plenty of educated people who have nevertheless found them compelling.

 

[pmccombs]

He was showing reasons to doubt the Bible in a vain effort to compare it with the fictional Book of Mormon

Utter nonsense! I defy you to find anywhere in the quote I posted from Dr. Bushman that reasons to doubt the Bible are presented.

And I am saying that, if he wants to say that about the Book of Mormon, fine. But don;t compare it to the Bible…a book which has stories that HAVE been confirmed by scientists, archaeologists, and geographers.

Say it all you like; it has nothing at all to do with the point. People believe in the Book of Mormon because it speaks to them. People believe in the Bible because it speaks to them. That is the only comparison Dr. Bushman made. They are religious texts that mean something to someone, and not always for intellectual reasons. That is the point.

If I did not listen to the Holy Spirit, I would still be LDS. Listening to the Holy Spirit led me out of that church and into the True Church

I do not doubt it. What must it have been like, to hear the Holy Spirit and to follow it? Mormons say that it enlightens the intellect as well as the heart and bestows a certainty in the things once hoped for.

 

[tarboy]

I actually have no intention of converting them. My job is to live my faith to the fullest and answer questions if people have them. Godis in charge of changing hearts and I can’t make anyone Catholic. I was thinking it would be neat for them to see a Catholic Mass because I know her Mother was Catholic before converting.

We decided not to do the swap but have them over to talk over dinner. I hope we don’t lose their friendship. They are the only other family on our block with conservative values and it’s nice not to feel so isolated.

I like how you are handling this. You can become better neighbors and friends without polluting the well, with religion (or politics).

 

[TexanKnight]

Utter nonsense! I defy you to find anywhere in the quote I posted from Dr. Bushman that reasons to doubt the Bible are presented.

LOL…really?

Say it all you like; it has nothing at all to do with the point. People believe in the Book of Mormon because it speaks to them. People believe in the Bible because it speaks to them. That is the only comparison Dr. Bushman made. They are religious texts that mean something to someone, and not always for intellectual reasons. That is the point.

no, it has everything to do with the fct he had the need to compare in order to put the books on the same level, which he NEEDS to do because there is no scientific basis for the Book of Mormon.

I do not doubt it. What must it have been like, to hear the Holy Spirit and to follow it? Mormons say that it enlightens the intellect as well as the heart and bestows a certainty in the things once hoped for.

I know the Holy Spirit the Mormons speak of…I thought it was the real One, too. But then I knew the REAL One and it was wonderful