Church swap with Mormons

[pmccombs]

I know the Holy Spirit the Mormons speak of…I thought it was the real One, too. But then I knew the REAL One and it was wonderful

I wish there were a topic about this, because I’m interested in what the Catholic experience with the Spirit is like and I’m always asking about it. We Mormons put a very high premium on the witness of the Holy Ghost; it’s the icing on the cake. Are you saying Catholics have it too? Does it tell you that your church is the only true Church?

 

[Stephen168]

We Mormons put a very high premium on the witness of the Holy Ghost; …

What is you understanding of the “witness of the Holy Ghost?”

 

[SpeSalvi]

I wish there were a topic about this, because I’m interested in what the Catholic experience with the Spirit is like and I’m always asking about it. We Mormons put a very high premium on the witness of the Holy Ghost; it’s the icing on the cake. Are you saying Catholics have it too? Does it tell you that your church is the only true Church?

I’m sure I’ve talked about it before, but MY personal spiritual experiences in the Catholic Church make the ones I had in the LDS church feel contrived and strained, even though at the time the certainly felt genuine.
Catholics do everything by faith AND reason. They not only go hand in hand, but they also stand alone in witnessing the truth of God’s Church. If you look at the Catholic Church purely from a faith perspective, you’ll find yourself convinced of the truth. If you look at it purely from a reasonable/historical/legal perspective, you’ll still find yourself convinced of the the truth. They go hand in hand, they’re neither exclusive of nor dependent on each other to prove the truth of the Catholic Church.

OP, if you DO decide somewhere down the line to go, please make sure you’re brushed up on your apologetics. Like a trillion teenagers can tell you, it’s hard to resist feelings, and the LDS church DOES deal in the “warm and fuzzies” more than any other church. Remember that God speaks to the soul and the mind as well, and that when one of those components is missing then the whole truth CANNOT reside there.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I wish there were a topic about this, because I’m interested in what the Catholic experience with the Spirit is like and I’m always asking about it. We Mormons put a very high premium on the witness of the Holy Ghost; it’s the icing on the cake. Are you saying Catholics have it too? Does it tell you that your church is the only true Church?

“The only true church” is a Mormon question that doesn’t fit in a Catholic paradigm in the same way. It is not the way I approached my conversion to Catholicism. My constant prayer was to God, asking Him to lead me to Him. This is where He led me. How do I know this is where He led me? Because I had no faith before and Faith is a gift of the Spirit.

Other experiences as well, which are my own.

Hope that helps.

 

[pmccombs]

What is you understanding of the “witness of the Holy Ghost?”

After a time of study and reflection, or even sometimes spontaneously, the Holy Spirit descends upon a person. There has to be a certain willingness or desire to receive. It’s as if a flame or a fire ascends in one’s soul, clearing the mind and comforting the heart. Where once there was doubt or uncertainty, now there is clarity and certainty–even to exceed (as the claim goes) all former certainties achieved by other means of knowing. All of the pieces seem to fit together, and a pure feeling of gratitude or charity wells up within.

Many who have the experience are at a loss for words to describe it, but they often state that the sense seems to be triggered from an external source rather than from anything within the psyche. Some of them are overcome with the experience and cannot compose themselves or find themselves too emotional to talk about it. The experience profoundly affects the subject, who then exhibits a greater faithfulness for some time afterward.

William James talks about the phenomenon to some extent in his work on the Variety of Religious Experience.

It seems to factor to some extent in the conversion from one faith (or no faith at all) to another, as many converts claim the experience to be unequaled by any similar experience in the former faith or former life.

Mormons, as I said, are quite impressed with this sort of thing. Yes, they will also tell you that it augments logic and reason, revealing truth to the mind as well as the heart. It is related to the Gift of the Holy Ghost, which Mormons believe is received by the laying on of hands after baptism, but can come to any “sincere” seeker of truth.

 

[TexanKnight]

After a time of study and reflection, or even sometimes spontaneously, the Holy Spirit descends upon a person. There has to be a certain willingness or desire to receive. It’s as if a flame or a fire ascends in one’s soul, clearing the mind and comforting the heart. Where once there was doubt or uncertainty, now there is clarity and certainty–even to exceed (as the claim goes) all former certainties achieved by other means of knowing. All of the pieces seem to fit together, and a pure feeling of gratitude or charity wells up within.

Many who have the experience are at a loss for words to describe it, but they often state that the sense seems to be triggered from an external source rather than from anything within the psyche. Some of them are overcome with the experience and cannot compose themselves or find themselves too emotional to talk about it. The experience profoundly affects the subject, who then exhibits a greater faithfulness for some time afterward.

William James talks about the phenomenon to some extent in his work on the Variety of Religious Experience.

It seems to factor to some extent in the conversion from one faith (or no faith at all) to another, as many converts claim the experience to be unequaled by any similar experience in the former faith or former life.

Mormons, as I said, are quite impressed with this sort of thing. Yes, they will also tell you that it augments logic and reason, revealing truth to the mind as well as the heart. It is related to the Gift of the Holy Ghost, which Mormons believe is received by the laying on of hands after baptism, but can come to any “sincere” seeker of truth.

can there be fake “Holy Spirits”?

 

[pmccombs]

I’m sure I’ve talked about it before, but MY personal spiritual experiences in the Catholic Church make the ones I had in the LDS church feel contrived and strained, even though at the time the certainly felt genuine.
Catholics do everything by faith AND reason. They not only go hand in hand, but they also stand alone in witnessing the truth of God’s Church. If you look at the Catholic Church purely from a faith perspective, you’ll find yourself convinced of the truth. If you look at it purely from a reasonable/historical/legal perspective, you’ll still find yourself convinced of the the truth. They go hand in hand, they’re neither exclusive of nor dependent on each other to prove the truth of the Catholic Church.

OP, if you DO decide somewhere down the line to go, please make sure you’re brushed up on your apologetics. Like a trillion teenagers can tell you, it’s hard to resist feelings, and the LDS church DOES deal in the “warm and fuzzies” more than any other church. Remember that God speaks to the soul and the mind as well, and that when one of those components is missing then the whole truth CANNOT reside there.

Yes, I recall some previous comments you made on the matter. They were quite good.

Anyway, the Mormons I am interested in would completely agree with you that faith and reason are inseparable partners. They have well-developed apologetics and numerous scholars working in the field. I realize there are those of other faiths for whom Mormon beliefs seem outrageous, but be assured that the worldview of the Mormon intellectual is congruent with his or her beliefs. Our scriptures tell us of “principles of intelligence” and the wisdom of being learned. It’s true, though, that our local meetings tend to be full of “warm and fuzzies,” as you say. Where there might be perceived gaps in their knowledge, or seeming contradictions, Mormons do tend to rely on faith and spiritual feelings.

 

[pmccombs]

can there be fake “Holy Spirits”?

Ah, that’s the question, isn’t it? How do we know which Spirit is the True Spirit?

And how can we know whose reason is really the right one? What evidence is genuine? There are persuasive experts of every religious denomination that can spin stories and explain facts that sound very plausible to someone. The Mormons have healed the sick, cast out demons, and even raised the dead. So have the Catholics.

People come up with personal answers to these problems. They know what they feel and understand; you know that your experience in the Catholic Church far exceeds what you had as a member of the LDS Church. It really does. You also find the reasoning of the Catholic apologists and theologians far more satisfying than the Mormon ones, which seem impossibly weak in your estimation.

You feel like you have awakened from a dream, maybe an unpleasant one. Where once you slept, now you are awake; and you can tell the difference just as you know you awaken each morning. It is night and day; the one so false, and the other so genuine. That is what it is like, at least that is what I gather from those who have been converted and really believe. The content of their belief seems not to matter, of course; whether Catholic, LDS, or what have you. Many of them report the same quality of conviction in their beliefs.

I don’t doubt them.

 

[Stephen168]

I wish there were a topic about this, because I’m interested in what the Catholic experience with the Spirit is like and I’m always asking about it. We Mormons put a very high premium on the witness of the Holy Ghost; it’s the icing on the cake.

After a time of study and reflection, or even sometimes spontaneously, the Holy Spirit descends upon a person. There has to be a certain willingness or desire to receive. It’s as if a flame or a fire ascends in one’s soul, clearing the mind and comforting the heart. Where once there was doubt or uncertainty, now there is clarity and certainty–even to exceed (as the claim goes) all former certainties achieved by other means of knowing. All of the pieces seem to fit together, and a pure feeling of gratitude or charity wells up within.

It seems “witness of the Holy Ghost” is the same as “burning in the bosom.” When I’ve heard Mormons talk of this in the past, I would not call it “icing on the cake;” it seems to me it is only icing; there is no cake (reason). I say this because it seems that Mormons are OK with asking the Holy Ghost to affirm things which are irrational or are scientifically known to be false.

Are you saying Catholics have it too? Does it tell you that your church is the only true Church?

Faith and reason tell me there is a God. Reason tells me the Catholic Church is the true Church of Christ; the second person of the Trinity.

 

[pmccombs]

“The only true church” is a Mormon question that doesn’t fit in a Catholic paradigm in the same way. It is not the way I approached my conversion to Catholicism. My constant prayer was to God, asking Him to lead me to Him. This is where He led me. How do I know this is where He led me? Because I had no faith before and Faith is a gift of the Spirit.

Other experiences as well, which are my own.

Hope that helps.

I suppose, to be fair, the “only true Church” thing that the Mormons get is syllogistic rather than direct (usually). They seem to receive a spiritual confirmation of particulars, such as Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon. Then there are these little leaps of logic that lead them along to the “Only true Church” conclusion. Well, it’s in the D&C. So if JS is a prophet, it must be true. And so on.

For the record, I like your approach better. Even Mormons agree that faith is a gift of the Spirit, and I think it is enough to be led. I don’t much care for the “only truth” business.

 

[pmccombs]

It seems “witness of the Holy Ghost” is the same as “burning in the bosom.” When I’ve heard Mormons talk of this in the past, I would not call it “icing on the cake;” it seems to me it is only icing; there is no cake (reason). I say this because it seems that Mormons are OK with asking the Holy Ghost to affirm things which are irrational or are scientifically known to be false.

Yes, many Mormons are perfectly satisfied to have only a spiritual witness. And of course, this goes back to Richard Bushman’s question: Aren’t there many simple folk of other Christian traditions who believe on faith alone? I don’t accept that “icing and no cake” is a valid stereotype for all Mormons. I think it’s a tendency to cater to the lowest-common denominator, and also an emphasis on spiritual over mortal (as God is greater than man and is liable to reveal surprising things that may contradict popular and conventional reason). I know way too many Mormons who are intellectually invested in the faith, though. Nor do I accept that “icing and cake” is a valid stereotype for Christians of other faiths. I’ve met far too many Catholics who have only their tradition, and that is what keeps them going.

 

[SteveVH]

I can point you to the various LDS apologetics sites if you are interested in why it is that intelligent and rational Mormons feel they are justified in their beliefs. While I have my own reasons for doubting the arguments put forth by Mormon intellectuals–and I’m sure you have reasons and arguments of your own–there are plenty of educated people who have nevertheless found them compelling.

There are many things that can compel us. It’s the “reason” and “logic” based upon actual evidence that I have found lacking in Mormon thought.

 

[Stephen168]

Yes, many Mormons are perfectly satisfied to have only a spiritual witness. And of course, this goes back to Richard Bushman’s question: Aren’t there many simple folk of other Christian traditions who believe on faith alone?

Yes, I’ve heard faith alone is common in Protestantism which gives it the possibility to be as irrational as Mormonism can be. Catholicism is based on faith and reason.

I don’t accept that “icing and no cake” is a valid stereotype for all Mormons.

I agree, but it is the belief of most I’ve conversed with. The few that try to produce cake fail.

I’ve met far too many Catholics who have only their tradition, and that is what keeps them going.

Me, too; my Mother, and Father-in-Law are two; but it doesn’t change the fact that the Catholic Church teaches from faith and reason. If they cared to look into the ‘why’ of any teaching there is a solid rational, consistent, historical reason for it. I just have never seen that in Mormonism.

 

[TexanKnight]

Ah, that’s the question, isn’t it? How do we know which Spirit is the True Spirit?

Yes…that IS the question.

And how can we know whose reason is really the right one? What evidence is genuine? There are persuasive experts of every religious denomination that can spin stories and explain facts that sound very plausible to someone. The Mormons have healed the sick, cast out demons, and even raised the dead. So have the Catholics.

Or they have alleged to. I can relate experiences as an LDS Missionary that would widen your eyes. But, I believe that God led me THRU the LDS Church to be Catholic. Not sure I could have ever been Catholic without first being LDS.

People come up with personal answers to these problems. They know what they feel and understand; you know that your experience in the Catholic Church far exceeds what you had as a member of the LDS Church. It really does. You also find the reasoning of the Catholic apologists and theologians far more satisfying than the Mormon ones, which seem impossibly weak in your estimation.

I know this sounds simplistic, but I look at doctrine. See, there are things that LDS call doctrine that are NOT Biblical. The only way they become Doctrine is because Joseph had an alleged revelation. If it takes the word of a self-proclaimed prophet to make it doctrine that differs from the Bible, then that causes HUGE questions. It also makes it impossible to truly debate a Mormon because when they start spouting new and odd doctrine, they just say, “A Prophet said it”.

You feel like you have awakened from a dream, maybe an unpleasant one. Where once you slept, now you are awake; and you can tell the difference just as you know you awaken each morning. It is night and day; the one so false, and the other so genuine. That is what it is like, at least that is what I gather from those who have been converted and really believe. The content of their belief seems not to matter, of course; whether Catholic, LDS, or what have you. Many of them report the same quality of conviction in their beliefs.

When I came across all those doctrines I was never taught, it was like a weight had suddenly crashed on me. I could not accept them. When I lost my testimony, I was devastated. Yet, when I left the Church, that weight was lifted. 13 years later, when I was led to become Catholic, it was amazing.

I don’t doubt them.

 

[andrewstx]

I wish there were a topic about this, because I’m interested in what the Catholic experience with the Spirit is like and I’m always asking about it. We Mormons put a very high premium on the witness of the Holy Ghost; it’s the icing on the cake. Are you saying Catholics have it too? Does it tell you that your church is the only true Church?

I don’t think mormons beleif in the Holy Ghost is the same as orthodox Christians beleif in the Holy Spirit.

I think this in another example of mormons using the same words as orthodox Christians and attaching very different meanings to the words.

Jusy like the LDS Articles of Faith, on the surface they look Christian, but find out how mormons define those terms and it is very different.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I suppose, to be fair, the “only true Church” thing that the Mormons get is syllogistic rather than direct (usually). They seem to receive a spiritual confirmation of particulars, such as Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon. Then there are these little leaps of logic that lead them along to the “Only true Church” conclusion. Well, it’s in the D&C. So if JS is a prophet, it must be true. And so on.

For the record, I like your approach better. Even Mormons agree that faith is a gift of the Spirit, and I think it is enough to be led. I don’t much care for the “only truth” business.

I think also there is the major difference in definition, as to what “Church” is, and all the meanings that go with it.

From the Catholic POV, there is one Church, which Jesus Christ established. She is the Bride of Christ, Jesus is Her head, and the baptized are her Body. ALL the baptized. This includes every person who has had a valid Christian baptism. Christ has one Bride.

“The fullness of truth is in the Catholic Church”, is more what you’ll hear from Catholics. By no means does this exclude other Christians from Christ’s Church. “True church” implies there is a “false church”. A Catholic mind is more along the lines of there is A CHURCH, everything else isn’t completely false, just lacking in the fullness of truth. This gets into the gifts that God has given to all, in the way in which we are created. A desire for God being one of those gifts.

The Catholic Church exists to bring people to Christ. In the mystery of the Church, Christ is the Church, and the Church is Christ.

Mormons attempt to make a facsimile of Christ’s church, something that is exclusive to themselves, and wholly outside of Apostolic teachings. There’s is seeking to bring people to itself, as a form of knowledge and acceptance of that knowledge. It’s a gnostic idea, that is, that salvation and eternal reward is dependent upon being among the intellectual elite.

 

[Porknpie]

The Mormons have healed the sick, cast out demons, and even raised the dead.

I could ask about all three but do tell me about Mormons raising the dead.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Well said.

I find it hypocritical that a few of you, who would be more than happy to see those of other faiths explore Catholicism, don’t think Catholics should do the same. This may be a big reason different faiths have such a hard time getting through to one another. Holding to this “invite them to your church, but don’t go to theirs” rule seems cowardly and unfair. You will surely object saying “yeah, but ours is the true faith.” They say the same thing. If you want to profit sometimes you have to invest.

I spent 20+years going to Mormon meetings. There isn’t anything there I find of value to my own spirituality. More like, their services give me anxiety attacks. Creep me out, really. But that is my experience. Obviously, people who are LDS don’t experience the same.

I wouldn’t invite a neighbor to Mass, out of manipulation in trying to convert them. If, in the course of friendly discussions, they expressed interest then I would invite them. I take the example of a visiting Mary Knoll priest, who serving in southeast Asia, invited no one to Mass. The area they were in, by law, prohibited them from proselyting. They serve the people, and those who are led to Mass by the Spirit, show up. The Holy Spirit guides people to Jesus, centrally found for us at Mass. I seek to be attentive to who those people are.

It happens fairly regularly, as our diocese baptizes about 400 or so people every year. We have no missionaries going door to door. People, like myself, just show up. There are as many ways and reasons for why they did. I can’t say I have ever heard anyone say, they church-swapped with a neighbor and decided to convert.

The OP, IMO, made a good decision. It is her love for God, and loving her neighbor, that brings people to Christ. Even when they do not convert.

 

[SteveVH]

I think also there is the major difference in definition, as to what “Church” is, and all the meanings that go with it.

From the Catholic POV, there is one Church, which Jesus Christ established. She is the Bride of Christ, Jesus is Her head, and the baptized are her Body. ALL the baptized. This includes every person who has had a valid Christian baptism. Christ has one Bride.

“The fullness of truth is in the Catholic Church”, is more what you’ll hear from Catholics. By no means does this exclude other Christians from Christ’s Church. “True church” implies there is a “false church”. A Catholic mind is more along the lines of there is A CHURCH, everything else isn’t completely false, just lacking in the fullness of truth. This gets into the gifts that God has given to all, in the way in which we are created. A desire for God being one of those gifts.

The Catholic Church exists to bring people to Christ. In the mystery of the Church, Christ is the Church, and the Church is Christ.

Mormons attempt to make a facsimile of Christ’s church, something that is exclusive to themselves, and wholly outside of Apostolic teachings. There’s is seeking to bring people to itself, as a form of knowledge and acceptance of that knowledge. It’s a gnostic idea, that is, that salvation and eternal reward is dependent upon being among the intellectual elite.

Awesome post, Rebecca. If people truly understood the mystical nature of the Church I believe there would be no division. If the Church is the Bride of Christ that means that we truly are one with him. Through the mystery of Christ’s presence in the sacraments we have an incredibly intimate relationship. And you are absolutely correct; Christ is the Church, and the Church is Christ, which is absolutley why the Church cannot fail. Christ has already won.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Awesome post, Rebecca. If people truly understood the mystical nature of the Church I believe there would be no division. If the Church is the Bride of Christ that means that we truly are one with him. Through the mystery of Christ’s presence in the sacraments we have an incredibly intimate relationship. And you are absolutely correct; Christ is the Church, and the Church is Christ, which is absolutley why the Church cannot fail. Christ has already won.

Aw, thanks.

“Christ has already won.” Yes. And goes directly to Jesus’ promise that the gates of hell will never prevail. If only our Mormon visitors could realize just one thing, Jesus is triumphant.