Church teaching is ruining my marriage

[Sina]

Just a thought… What if your wife had a tubal, and she still got pregnant ? What if you used ABC and she still got pregnant? ( as no birth control is 100% effective ). It COULD happen… just as it has happened with NFP measures.

This is a hard time in your life and your family’s life. I pray it gets better and easier for you and that you and your wife can come closer together.

 

[sfp]

I think you are operating on a false premise: that having a sterilization or using abc would save your marriage. How can be totally cut off from God’s Grace save your marriage?

Do you have a good priest who can counsel you on this matter?

Never said that it would save our marriage…in fact, I’m not allowing the medical procedure for that very reason. I DON’T think it would help our marriage, but I’m just trying to talk about it, and to get others’ insight…we just don’t know WHAT to do.

Read my earlier posts about my pastor’s advice. (and my recent reply about the magesterium’s teaching._)

 

[Em_in_FL]

We are now working with THE expert at the Pope Paul VI institute…the doctor who developed the Creighton system. They can even provide an analysis of her blood EVERY month to tell her whether or not she actually conceived, based on the hormone levels in her blood. Apparently, it is 100% effective in telling you whether or not you are naturally infertile until your next menstrual cycle. However, the key is that last sentence…she can get pregnant DURING her menstrual cycle, and sperm can last up to 3 days I believe, in optimal conditions. (we believe our last child was conceived during her cycle) Plus, there is SO much more to this…

The pressure my wife feels in “having” to be in the mood or mindset during a “specific” time period of the month. And the fact that the use of NFP to avoid goes completely against God’s design. By choosing to try to avoid, we have to abstain during the time of month when she is most interested in relations!

And someone above was right, God never intended for the current “family” lifestyle. Years ago, it was not uncommon for families to have 10+ kids, but they also had lots of family around to help Me personally, I WANT 10+ kids, but I have to be empathetic to my wife’s mental and physical capabilities, as well.

mschrank;3361041:

sfp: Are you saying that the reason why NFP is not working for you is because you keep having sex during your wife’s period?

Nudge nudge… is this the case, because otherwise I do not understand why NFP is not working for you.

SFP - you mention a few very key things in your post above… and mschrank is asking a very important question…

While I’m not familiar with the Creighton method… I do know that it IS very possible for some couples to conceive during the menstrual cycle, so I’m not sure I understand your statement of being surprised at this?

Also… is the bigger problem the fact that your wife is not in “the mood” during her infertile phase?
Are you working together to discuss these issues?
Has she seen a doctor regarding this lack or libido during her infertile phase? (any underlying problems that could be resolved by looking into that?)…

By the way… if you’re considering sterilization or hormonal birth control… this will only serve to DECREASE her libido even more! Something to consider…

 

[sfp]

sfp: Are you saying that the reason why NFP is not working for you is because you keep having sex during your wife’s period?

Not at all. Not sure where that came from. Only our last child we believe this happened.

 

[jmcrae]

I am aware of the ordinary magesterium’s teachings on voluntary infertility. However, is my pastor correct?..( in saying that since the Church has never made an infallible statement from the chair, that we should rely on the Holy Spirit’s guidance for “our” particular circumstances.)

It is true that no infallible statement has been made; however, the fact that a teaching has never been explicitly defined and declared dogmatically from the chair of Peter does not make it optional.

The fact that it is a teaching of the ordinary Magesterium is enough to make it a required part of the practice of the faith for those to whom it pertains. Therefore, it seems extremely unlikely that the Holy Spirit would guide you to make use of any of these things. (He probably has an even better idea, so it would be good to follow your priest’s advice to seek the counsel of the Holy Spirit - but don’t do so with any preconceived expectations - He may surprise you.)

Recent Popes, beginning with Pope Paul VI in Humanae Vitae, which was written during the 1960s, and the many documents on this subject produced by Pope John Paul II, including Theology of the Body, Life in Christ, and several encyclicals, have consistently and frequently taught that the use of artificial contraception is contrary to God’s plan for marriage and the family.

In the Early Church, they didn’t have the sort of contraception that we think of today, but they did forbid chemical sterilization of women, hysterectomies, abortion, and child exposure, all of which were common practices in pagan Rome.

 

[holliberri]

Hi there…this is my first post…I saw your original post and read through everything…and I just had to create an account.

I’m not in your position yet. I have two children, 16 months apart…he’ll be 6 months on Thursday. Neither of our children were ‘planned’…as our daughter was a honeymoon baby. We had so many plans for our first few years that were pretty much forgotten when we learned of our pregnancy…and again by the second. It was really hard to accept for awhile. We did everything ‘right’…and we still became pregnant. Why did this happen? We just accept that this is God’s plan for us. God’s ways, are better than our ways. Always. As hard as it is for us to accept.

I can truly say that there was nothing I enjoyed about being pregnant…I never want to be pregnant again. My back is totally shot. I had the baby blues after our son arrived. There have been times in the past months that I’ve screamed so hard my throat has hurt… I don’t want to have any more children! I don’t want to go through this again!

There. That being said… I LOVE my children. I know you love each of your children. They are the best ‘things’ to happen to our marriage. It’s hard to deal with little babies. My mom, who had 4 in 5 years, keeps telling me that I pretty much have to give myself up, and that’s the only way I’ll find any peace. It’s hard for me. It’s hard for your wife. I think that if you’re getting emotional help…medical help for figuring out your wife’s cycles, spiritual help…and extra help on the side for caring for your little ones, that you’re on the right track. It would seem to me that you and your wife really don’t seem to want to go the other route of getting her tubes tied, as you seem to be seeking help here and elsewhere. I truly commend you for that. I think my only suggestion would be to get a little more help during the days for your wife. I’m sure like PPs suggested, that there have got to be some people in your church that are willing to donate their love and time to helping your family. I know I would gladly help if I were in your vicinity.

I hope that things work out so that you and your wife can enjoy intimacy again. If your wife does get pregnant again…go ahead and cry…it isn’t in your plans…but God must have a really good reason for blessing you with so many children. You must be really good parents!
You’re in my prayers.

…and yes…we’ll probably have more kids…

 

[agapewolf]

Not at all. Not sure where that came from. Only our last child we believe this happened.

Then you were not using the method correctly. The period is to be considered fertile time. (creighton rules). If you chose to have sex during the period, you actually used the method to achieve pregnancy…and it worked successfully.

It did not fail you

 

[Cupofkindness]

spf:

Things will get better for your wife as time marches forward. I was in a very similar situation (five kids in seven years) and then added homeschooling. It took me years to recover. Ultimately, all seven of my children went into our parish school. I would put as many of the children into school (kinder, first, whatever you can manage). This doesn’t mean you love them less, contrary to any guilt that one might feel for enrolling the school-aged children. What is of primary importance is to help your wife heal herself with plenty of rest. I would wean the babies in order to give your wife the sleep she needs. I would recommend working on all non-sexual parts of your relationship to reestablish trust and foster basic intimacy. I would also add that it would be great if your wife could make it to daily Mass, if only to clear her head, but of course being before God is of immeasurable value. Pray and show your concern by helping her as much as possible… establish these things before addressing sexual intimacy. Get out alone together, even if it’s just for an hour to the coffee shop. It’s a tough path, we’ve been there, you are not alone. Seek help from your church, mother’s clubs and bible studies. Friendship outside the family is so important. God be with you and your precious wife. It will get better, don’t lose hope, talk about your frustrations to your wife, all in an affirming way. She sounds like a very generous and good woman. Finally, getting a tubal should not be an option. It will create another set of problems, both moral, emotional, and physical, and really, there is no reversing that decision. Stay pure, know that God will use these things to bring about good. Stay hopeful and love your beautiful wife.

 

[mschrank]

Then you were not using the method correctly. The period is to be considered fertile time. (creighton rules). If you chose to have sex during the period, you actually used the method to achieve pregnancy…and it worked successfully.

It did not fail you

That’s what I was trying to get at. He’s claiming that he is following NFP perfectly and it is still not working, but I see some things that would indicate otherwise.

What do you think sfp, are you following it perfectly?

 

[sfp]

Also… is the bigger problem the fact that your wife is not in “the mood” during her infertile phase?
Are you working together to discuss these issues?
Has she seen a doctor regarding this lack or libido during her infertile phase? (any underlying problems that could be resolved by looking into that?)…

Done that, too. Counselors (both strong Catholics) just say that it’s understandable that she has no libido, considering the circumstances. The cognitive therapy sessions just tell me (paraphrasing) “suck it up.”

 

[Dags800]

sfp: I had three within 4 years, so I can imagine on a smaller scale what your wife is going through. My practical advice for dealing with all those small children is this: you and your wife have to decide what is important and what you can let slide. Perhaps once your wife knows that there are things she doesn’t have to stress about (mine was vacuuming, I decided early on that I just couldn’t fit it in unless we were having company or I absolutely couldn’t stand it), maybe that will help.

No wise words here about dealing with when to have martial relations or the stress that is putting on you and your wife. I will definitely pray for you, though.

 

[sfp]

…I think my only suggestion would be to get a little more help during the days for your wife. I’m sure like PPs suggested, that there have got to be some people in your church that are willing to donate their love and time to helping your family. …

This is the problem…everyone gives verbal support, but no one in the Church feels it is necessary to help out those who try to follow this Church teaching. I mean…

1. There is NO child care at our 5:30 evening mass on Sunday (we both provide the music at this mass).
2. There is NO ministry for helping mothers who have lots of kids (i.e. trying to follow Church teaching.) When my wife mentioned something about it at a staff meeting, everyone went silent!! (No comment)

Unbelievable how everyone says that we are an example of faith in God to trust in His will by being open to life, but no one really wants to “actually” implement a plan to help those who need it.

 

[Island_Oak]

I’m sure I’m setting myself up for a blast of rotten tomotoes…but I think this is prime territory where individuals let go of common sense and follow the dictates of “faith” with such a rigidity and narrowness of focus that it becomes destructive of individuals, families and the very faith at the heart of the conflict.

I don’t believe all couples who who are endlessly fertile are necessarily called, gifted or otherwise physically, mentally or emotionally equipped by God to parent a multitude of children. It simply means that they more readily (and maybe unpredictably) get pregnant and deliver babies successfully when they engage in the same marital intimacy other marrieds enjoy.

When this becomes unhealthy–in that one or both partners becomes umotionally or physically unstable–the time to stop procreating has arrived–at least for some period of time until stability and balance has been regained. This is not selfishness, fear, lack of trust or faith or ingratitude for the gift of existing children. It is simply recognizing the reality of human limits and taking responsibility for the existing obligations one has to parent, maintain a marriage and create a stable, healthy, happy household.

I firmly believe that scientific advances are also God-given gifts that can allow us to manage our fertility in ways that are not abortifacient or, as in the case of the OP, clearly are not sought because of selfishness or lack of dedication to God. We must each discern and balance our will, discretion, judgment along with the guidance of Church teachings and what we believe to be the will of God in our lives.

 

[GraceDK]

LOL, I think the Church does decide. If it doesn’t, then lets stop wasting our time on this “Catholic” nonsense and become Protestants.

After all, it doesn’t mention NFP in the Bible. (sarcasm)

The Church does not say anyone is cut off from God’s Grace… You could neither breathe nor stand at this very moment if it was not for the Grace of God. Jesus says: “Whoever comes to me I will never turn away” and “Go and learn what it means: Mercy I want, not burnt sacrifice”.
Jesus is ever so close to us… He is the only one Who ever really understands. The Churh teaches excatly that… he also warns us about seeing the splinter in our brother’s eye…
How Great is Our God!

To the OP. I hope you will go and receive prayer in your congregation alot at this time. Its so important and so powerful. Especially if there are people there with a healing ministry (which I hope) then go to them and have them lay hands on you and your wife to you have inner healing, peace and clarity to know what to do and to meet the future with total confidence.
Jesus loves you so much.

 

[mchale]

Lot of nerve coming from someone with no kids. I have NO conflicting feelings about my kids…they are the reason we go on trying. My posts show that we are frustrated and fearful due to the PROXIMITY of our kids…not our kids themselves!

With respect, the two are one in the same. If your kids had been conceived at a time different from when they were, they would be very different people than the ones who are your kids today.

I am not saying you don’t love your kids, but there is conflict in your heart in how you view them. You say you love all your kids, but you wish they had not come so fast. Think about that, let say they were separated by 3 years; would that be enough for you? If it is, you are now wishing that some of your kids had not been born yet!

I may not know what it is like to be a parent, but you can’t say I don’t know what it is like to love and be loved. If someone told me they loved me but wished I wasn’t around yet, guess which thought would stick more in my mind?

Also, why does my not having kids disqualify me from having a valid opinion? You going to use the same reasoning with respect to an observation coming from a priest?

Ultimately, you posted on this forum asking for advice, don’t get angry because people are not simply giving you sympathy.

–
Bill

 

[sfp]

Then you were not using the method correctly. The period is to be considered fertile time. (creighton rules). If you chose to have sex during the period, you actually used the method to achieve pregnancy…and it worked successfully.

It did not fail you

You are incorrect. We didn’t have sex “during” her menstrual cycle. Ever since our third child, we took a VERY conservative approach to all of our methods. We are well aware that her cycle is considered “fertile” time.

We had sex the night BEFORE her cycle. We did not expect her cycle to come so early. We believe the sperm stayed alive long enough for conception to occur.

But thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt before you preached. (sarcastic)

 

[jmcrae]

This is the problem…everyone gives verbal support, but no one in the Church feels it is necessary to help out those who try to follow this Church teaching. I mean…

1. There is NO child care at our 5:30 evening mass on Sunday (we both provide the music at this mass).

Why are you providing the music at the Mass? Seriously, man. You’ve got five kids under the age of 6 - you have no duty to do volunteer work at this stage in your life.

Five kids and your paying job that you do during the week are all the work you need, right now. Let the retirees and the single people take on the Church stuff.

 

[23eagle23]

I’m sure I’m setting myself up for a blast of rotten tomotoes…but I think this is prime territory where individuals let go of common sense and follow the dictates of “faith” with such a rigidity and narrowness of focus that it becomes destructive of individuals, families and the very faith at the heart of the conflict.

I don’t believe all couples who who are endlessly fertile are necessarily called, gifted or otherwise physically, mentally or emotionally equipped by God to parent a multitude of children. It simply means that they more readily (and maybe unpredictably) get pregnant and deliver babies successfully when they engage in the same marital intimacy other marrieds enjoy.

When this becomes unhealthy–in that one or both partners becomes umotionally or physically unstable–the time to stop procreating has arrived–at least for some period of time until stability and balance has been regained. This is not selfishness, fear, lack of trust or faith or ingratitude for the gift of existing children. It is simply recognizing the reality of human limits and taking responsibility for the existing obligations one has to parent, maintain a marriage and create a stable, healthy, happy household.

I firmly believe that scientific advances are also God-given gifts that can allow us to manage our fertility in ways that are not abortifacient or, as in the case of the OP, clearly are not sought because of selfishness or lack of dedication to God. We must each discern and balance our will, discretion, judgment along with the guidance of Church teachings and what we believe to be the will of God in our lives.

Well said…

 

[Sina]

This is the problem…everyone gives verbal support, but no one in the Church feels it is necessary to help out those who try to follow this Church teaching. I mean…

1. There is NO child care at our 5:30 evening mass on Sunday (we both provide the music at this mass).
2. There is NO ministry for helping mothers who have lots of kids (i.e. trying to follow Church teaching.) When my wife mentioned something about it at a staff meeting, everyone went silent!! (No comment)

Unbelievable how everyone says that we are an example of faith in God to trust in His will by being open to life, but no one really wants to “actually” implement a plan to help those who need it.

Some churches are “more orthodox” than others. I find churches where there is Latin Mass available regularily, has more large families in my experience.

My friend who has 5 kids goes to such a church and there are SO many kids running around after mass, that DH and I joked that when we have our kids, we should just drop them off and let them run around with the other kids and head to the mall nearby and come back an hour later. There are so many kids in the jumble that nobody would be the wiser. Total joke though. But my point is that there are some churches out there that have like minded families… and then there are those that just don’t for whatever reason. I hear you about the lack of support though.

 

[kage_ar]

Why are you providing the music at the Mass? Seriously, man. You’ve got five kids under the age of 6 - you have no duty to do volunteer work at this stage in your life.

Five kids and your paying job that you do during the week are all the work you need, right now. Let the retirees and the single people take on the Church stuff.

I have to second this - with one little side note…

Perhaps providing music at Mass is something that your wife loves, and if that is the case, could you sacrifice and keep the kids and give her that time to be free to minister with her gifts?

Another idea, recruit some Mass helpers from the youth or some of us who no longer have little kids to care for during Mass.