Church Teaching on Abortion

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Marc_Anthony

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Is the Church teaching on abortion (that it is always, in every circumstance, intrinsically evil and punishable by excommunication) irrevocable? That is, was the teaching made infallibly? For the record, I actually don’t have a problem with the teaching (I used to but not anymore), but I know many people who are otherwise model Catholics that do have a problem with it when both the Mother and the baby are going to die and the only way to save the mother is to abort the baby (when there is no way to save the baby either way).

I know this will turn into another abortion debate but realy my question is whether or not the Church can alter this teaching or not, so try and hold off the debate for as long as possible. Thanks.
 
My understanding is that inadvertant asbortion may occur if an operation is performed to save a Mother’s life but not a deliberate abortion.St Gianna,an Italian Doctor and wife and Mother was canonized in part for refusing treatment which MAY have aborted her pregnancy.The child was delivered and she did indeed die.
 
Yes, I understand that much. My question is, can the Church’s teaching be changed, for example, to allow a mother to abort her child when both are going to die anyway and the only way to save one of them is to abort the child? Or is the teaching absolutely irrevocable and infallible?
 
I think it comes down to"one cannot commit an evil to prevent an “evil”.That is why in the US a Nun associated with a hospital was recently excommunicated by adding her"OK’ to an abortion that supposedly saved the Mother’s life.I think this instance is the same scenario that you describe as the child would have perished had the Mother perished;however that certainty(the Mother’s death) could not have been predicted 100%…

How can physicians predict certainty?They can only predict degrees of probability.
 
That is the exact scenario I’m referring to, actually.

I understand the teaching right now, and I actually have no problem with it. But I know many people who do, so I’m wondering if the teaching right now can ever be changed, or is it infallible and thus irrevocable.
 
Well a NUN was excommunicated as a result.Which is fairly serious as her Bishop said the excommunication was automatic.I think that one would have to be a canon scholar to give you a better though not necessarily correct answer.
If this is an interpretation of an infallible statement then I would say that the decision is irrevocable in the future-although the excommunication itself can be rescinded should certain conditions set out by her Bishop be met-such as a public renunciation of her decision by the nun herself.

Anyone else?
 
Marc_Anthony said:
That is the exact scenario I’m referring to, actually.

I understand the teaching right now, and I actually have no problem with it. But I know many people who do, so I’m wondering if the teaching right now can ever be changed, or is it infallible and thus irrevocable.
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A direct abortion is intrinsically evil. One may never perform evil that a good may result. The Church can never condone evil. Other teachings, while not being pronounced ex Cathedra, are just as binding. There are few ex Cathedra pronouncements.

geneva.rutgers.edu/src/faq/infallibility.txt~

Note that ex cathedra papal definitions are not the only way in which
something can be known infallibly. They are not even the only way in
which the pope can teach infallibly. In an ex cathedra definition,
the pope defines a doctrine himself. The pope can also make
statements that recognize doctrines as having been taught infallibly
by the ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Bishops dispersed
throughout the world.
 
The Church declared a direct abortion evil in all ciscumstances, yes. But can this teaching NEVER be changed to, for example, “Direct abortion is wrong in all circumstances EXCEPT in a case where both the mother and child are going to die either way but the mother can be saved by aborting the child. Such a decision should only ever be made after discussion with family, doctors, and religious officials.”

Like I said, I actually agree with what the Church teaches now, but I know many Catholics who would love to see the teaching changed to this. Is that even possible, or is the teaching infallible and thus irrevocable?
 
If Evangelium Vitae is considered infallible teaching, then I would say yes, the teaching against abortion is infallible.

From paragraph 54 of EV: From the beginning, the living Tradition of the Church-as shown by the Didache, the most ancient non-biblical Christian writing-categorically repeated the commandment “You shall not kill”: “There are two ways, a way of life and a way of death; there is a great difference between them… In accordance with the precept of the teaching: you shall not kill … you shall not put a child to death by abortion nor kill it once it is born … The way of death is this: … they show no compassion for the poor, they do not suffer with the suffering, they do not acknowledge their Creator, they kill their children and by abortion cause God’s creatures to perish; they drive away the needy, oppress the suffering, they are advocates of the rich and unjust judges of the poor; they are filled with every sin. May you be able to stay ever apart, o children, from all these sins!”.

Since the Church has taught “from the beginning” that abortion is wrong, how could the teaching change now? And why would it change now? Those that want the teaching to change seem to think that the death of the mother is an evil thing to be avoided at all costs. But that is not the mind of the Church on the matter.
 
Marc,

you have to understand why the Church teaches this way

first, murder is a sin. and deliberate killing of another human being for any purpose except self defense is a sin.

second, life begins at conception

now, both points mentioned are deeply rooted not only in Christian doctrine, but even from our Jewish roots, ie. its been taught since the old testament

now, abortion has come from these two beliefs, that life begins at conception, and murder is evil. put them together and you have abortion

so no, the Church’s teaching will never ever change on abortion.
 
I completely understand this. I struggled a bit for a time with the teaching but now I realize that it absolutely makes sense. I just wondered if the Church COULD change her teaching, because many people I know have expressed that desire to me. I don’t WANT her to change her teaching.
 
well, given the two points i mentioned, if one of them change then the teaching on abortion will change. that is how some people justify their acceptance on abortion. they would argue that life doesn’t begin at conception, so therefore you’re just removing a clump of cells instead of killing a life
 
These people are NOT pro-choice who I’m talking about; they just want the teaching on abortion changed in cases where both the mother and child will die unless the mother is aborted, in which case the mother will be saved. But they only want abortion made legal in that specific situation and no others.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
The Church declared a direct abortion evil in all ciscumstances, yes. But can this teaching NEVER be changed to, for example, “Direct abortion is wrong in all circumstances EXCEPT in a case where both the mother and child are going to die either way but the mother can be saved by aborting the child. Such a decision should only ever be made after discussion with family, doctors, and religious officials.”

Like I said, I actually agree with what the Church teaches now, but I know many Catholics who would love to see the teaching changed to this. Is that even possible, or is the teaching infallible and thus irrevocable?
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Yes, you claim to “know many Catholics” who disagree with teaching,
yet I know NONE who are in disagreement. There will be no change in the teaching.

In fact those old enough to have personal memories of the “new” abortion laws
can and do remember that what you’re suggesting was, in fact, the tip of the iceberg
in convincing the nation that this exceptional surgery would be used rarely. We know that
in fact, instead, the exception has become the rule here and around the world.

The Church can not and will not “change” morality to appease people who want answers
that will allow them the convenience of murder. That’s the way it is. Thank God.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
These people are NOT pro-choice who I’m talking about; they just want the teaching on abortion changed in cases where both the mother and child will die unless the mother is aborted, in which case the mother will be saved. But they only want abortion made legal in that specific situation and no others.
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You are mistaken. What they want is at the essence of pro-choice mythology as in,
“Abortion is really ok, if regretable, if the baby’s killed to save the mommy.”

WRONG. Abortion is a grave evil.
Direct abortion is NEVER allowed by the Catholic Church.
 
catharina said:
Abortion is a grave evil.
Direct abortion is NEVER allowed by the Catholic Church.
Click to expand...
Which is a good thing, I agree. My question was just whether or not the Church could change their teaching. The answer seems to be no, so thanks all.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
Is the Church teaching on abortion (that it is always, in every circumstance, intrinsically evil and punishable by excommunication) irrevocable? That is, was the teaching made infallibly? For the record, I actually don’t have a problem with the teaching (I used to but not anymore), but I know many people who are otherwise model Catholics that do have a problem with it when both the Mother and the baby are going to die and the only way to save the mother is to abort the baby (when there is no way to save the baby either way).

I know this will turn into another abortion debate but realy my question is whether or not the Church can alter this teaching or not, so try and hold off the debate for as long as possible. Thanks.
Click to expand...
The Church cannont altar her teaching

Pope John Paul II noted the “unanimity in the doctrinal and disciplinary tradition of the Church” saying the tradition is “unchangeable.” Evangelium Vitae, 62

Archbishop Levada wrote “Pope John Paul II, after consultation among the bishops of the world, declared on his apostolic authority in Evangelium Vitae that this moral doctrine was part of the patrimony of faith **taught infallibly **by the universal ordinary Magisterium of the Church, i.e., the College of Bishops united in their teaching throughout history and throughout the world. A Catholic, **to be in full communion **with the faith of the Church, **must accept this teaching **about the evil of abortion and euthanasia.” usccb.org/bishops/reflections.shtml

Under canon law those who oppose a divine truth are heretics, self excommunicated and should not recieve communion.
 
Canto said:
The Church cannont altar her teaching

Pope John Paul II noted the “unanimity in the doctrinal and disciplinary tradition of the Church” saying the tradition is “unchangeable.” Evangelium Vitae, 62

Archbishop Levada wrote “Pope John Paul II, after consultation among the bishops of the world, declared on his apostolic authority in Evangelium Vitae that this moral doctrine was part of the patrimony of faith **taught infallibly **by the universal ordinary Magisterium of the Church, i.e., the College of Bishops united in their teaching throughout history and throughout the world. A Catholic, **to be in full communion **with the faith of the Church, **must accept this teaching **about the evil of abortion and euthanasia.” usccb.org/bishops/reflections.shtml

Under canon law those who oppose a divine truth are heretics, self excommunicated and should not recieve communion.
Click to expand...
👍👍
 
Marc_Anthony said:
That is the exact scenario I’m referring to, actually.

I understand the teaching right now, and I actually have no problem with it. But I know many people who do, so I’m wondering if the teaching right now can ever be changed, or is it infallible and thus irrevocable.
Click to expand...
elts1956 said:
A direct abortion is intrinsically evil. One may never perform evil that a good may result. The Church can never condone evil. Other teachings, while not being pronounced ex Cathedra, are just as binding. There are few ex Cathedra pronouncements.

geneva.rutgers.edu/src/faq/infallibility.txt~

Note that ex cathedra papal definitions are not the only way in which
something can be known infallibly. They are not even the only way in
which the pope can teach infallibly. In an ex cathedra definition,
the pope defines a doctrine himself. The pope can also make
statements that recognize doctrines as having been taught infallibly
by the ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Bishops dispersed
throughout the world.
Click to expand...
Sorry to repeat myself, but…

The pope can also make
statements that recognize doctrines as having been taught infallibly
by the ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Bishops dispersed
throughout the world.

This would include encyclicals written by Popes. Read Evangelium Vitae, Humanae Vitae, Veritas Splendor and others. They all say direct abortion is an intrinsic evil and can never be condoned. Now, can this ever be changed?. Of course it can, but NEVER by the Church.
 
Good, thanks for answering. That’s the only thing I wanted to know.
 
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