Church Teaching on Abortion

[Soutane]

Good, thanks for answering. That’s the only thing I wanted to know.

This was a hard question Marc as everyone FEELS for the Mother and if I was not a Catholic bound by obedience to the Church which is the Body of Christ on this earth,I might take an opposing view.

I CHOOSE to be Catholic because of the ultimate Truth the Pope,Magisterium and the Church represent and DELIVER to this world.This Truth is sometimes hard for those of us who use our own feelings as a guide for our conduct in life.But if we do that Truth devolves into mere opinion.

It’s hard being Catholic sometimes.It’s supposed to be.

Our Lord suffered.We suffer.

 

[choy]

These people are NOT pro-choice who I’m talking about; they just want the teaching on abortion changed in cases where both the mother and child will die unless the mother is aborted, in which case the mother will be saved. But they only want abortion made legal in that specific situation and no others.

the issue here, and same with harvesting stem cells from embryos, is what makes one life more valuable than the other? we can’t be the judge of that. God sees us all as equally important, that is why He sent His Son to save us ALL. no exceptions. of course the choice of accepting that salvation is a whole different case. but that proves of how God values all people

now, why would we have to bear that burden of making a choice of who has to live, and who has to die? can you really conclusively say the mother has more worth than the child? sure, its easy to pressume worth based on present circumstances. like the mother supports the family financially, etc. but that is denying the baby the chance to become someone important in the future. he could be pope, or a scientist that discovers a cure for cancer.

the Catholic way is, do everything possible to save both lives. if one life is lost along the way, then thats the way life is. the important thing is you never intended to kill anyone

 

[Marc_Anthony]

the issue here, and same with harvesting stem cells from embryos, is what makes one life more valuable than the other? we can’t be the judge of that. God sees us all as equally important, that is why He sent His Son to save us ALL. no exceptions. of course the choice of accepting that salvation is a whole different case. but that proves of how God values all people

now, why would we have to bear that burden of making a choice of who has to live, and who has to die? can you really conclusively say the mother has more worth than the child? sure, its easy to pressume worth based on present circumstances. like the mother supports the family financially, etc. but that is denying the baby the chance to become someone important in the future. he could be pope, or a scientist that discovers a cure for cancer.

the Catholic way is, do everything possible to save both lives. if one life is lost along the way, then thats the way life is. the important thing is you never intended to kill anyone

You’re confusing what I’m saying; the child should be aborted if, and only if, both the Mother and the child are going to die anyway. It isn’t choosing the Mother over the child, it’s saying that if both are going to die if we abort the child the Mother can be saved. One death vs. two.

But then, I’m not really debating this. I agree with the Church teaching.

 

[x0stephanie]

That is the exact scenario I’m referring to, actually.

I understand the teaching right now, and I actually have no problem with it. But I know many people who do, so I’m wondering if the teaching right now can ever be changed, or is it infallible and thus irrevocable.

All a woman has to do is confess and ask for forgiveness after her abortion, and she is accepted back into the Church… I always thought that was a little weird.

 

[Soutane]

All a woman has to do is confess and ask for forgiveness after her abortion, and she is accepted back into the Church… I always thought that was a little weird.

“Seventy-times-Seven”.In other words an infinitimy of times.That’s what Jesus himself told the Apostles,when one asked “how many times must we forgive someone,Lord”.

In most cases only SHE would know she was excommunicated as abortions generally don’t receive publicity.If she went to the Sacrament of Reconciliation and repented and asked for forgiveness through the priest(in personae Christi)God would forgive her and the self-excommunication would be vacated.

 

[x0stephanie]

I guess the whole excommunication thing doesn’t make sense to me if you can just apologize and pretend like it never happened.

 

[WatchingMedia]

And the answer is - - -

in the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition”, including when someone is automatically excommunicated - they do it to themselves. The Nun excommunicated herself, and I would hope she had at least read her Catechism.

You can never kill one person to save another. No it won’t change. Thou shalt not kill.

You can never do evil for an intended good outcome.

If a medical procedure must be done in which killing would not be the intended outcome, and a fetus dies - that is not a sin.

 

[Rence]

I guess the whole excommunication thing doesn’t make sense to me if you can just apologize and pretend like it never happened.

You can’t just apologize and pretend like it never happened. You have to regret or be sorry for offending God, and you have to work towards not doing it again. A priest can deny someone absolution if he thinks they will do it again, especially if he thinks they willingly or purposefully will do it again.

Someone I know was divorced, as was her new boyfriend. Though they were in the process of both getting their annullments, the lady went to Confession because she felt guilty for dating the guy. The priest told her she had to stop seeing the guy until both their annulments were complete. She said she couldn’t promise him this, and he told her he wouldn’t absolve her until she did. She wound up going to another priest and getting absolution but the point is, regarding the fact that you think excommunication doesn’t make senese if you can just apologize, that’s not how it’s supposed to work.

In the case of an abortion, there’s no doubt in my mind some women are truly sorry for the abortion, especially if they wanted the pregnancy but it had to be terminated to save their own lives. The priest of course would grant absolution, if the person regretted the action, and if the person doesn’t intend to do it again.

Face it people, everyone sins. We’re human. If we had no way to be absolved for sins, we’d all be in Hell, even the “pro-life” people. Absolution and reconciliation gives one a chance to make things right, when we’ve done wrong.

 

[Soutane]

I guess the whole excommunication thing doesn’t make sense to me if you can just apologize and pretend like it never happened.

Repent,ask forgiveness through the priest in the Sacrament,God knows one’s sincerity.

The Sacrament of Reconciliation is hardly equivalent to the notion of “apology”.If you want to debate or understand the efficacy of Sacraments,better do it in the aplogetics section

 

[catharina]

Repent,ask forgiveness through the priest in the Sacrament,God knows one’s sincerity.

The Sacrament of Reconciliation is hardly equivalent to the notion of “apology”.If you want to debate or understand the efficacy of Sacraments,better do it in the aplogetics section

Perfect.

The notion of “apologizing” to God?
Mind-boggling!

 

[1ke]

Is the Church teaching on abortion (that it is always, in every circumstance, intrinsically evil and punishable by excommunication) irrevocable?

Direct abortion is, in every situation, intrinsically evil, grave matter, and if done with full knowledge and free will a mortal sin. This is irrevocable because it is a moral truth. It is intrinsically evil. That means in-and-of-itself. There is no circumstance when it is not wrong.

The last part of your statement, regarding being punishable by excommunication is not doctrinal. That is a legislative penalty imposed by the Church. That is changeable.

That is, was the teaching made infallibly?

Yes. It is an infallible teaching that abortion is intrinsically evil.

but I know many people who are otherwise model Catholics that do have a problem with it when both the Mother and the baby are going to die and the only way to save the mother is to abort the baby (when there is no way to save the baby either way).

If there is a medical situation requiring the mother be treated, the mother can be treated. Abortion is **not **a treatment for a medical condition. Ever. People like to pretend that it is.

If the treatment involves removing the uterus, giving chemotherapy, or some other surgery, drug, etc., the mother may have that treatment. The baby may die, but that is not the purpose of the treatment or the primary outcome or intent.

If the baby can be delivered vaginally or via C-section as part of the treatment, prior to the treatment, etc, that can be done. If the baby does not live, that isn’t an abortion.

Both the mother AND child are patients, and the doctor must always strive to save both. The direct killing of one or the other is always a moral evil.

I know this will turn into another abortion debate but realy my question is whether or not the Church can alter this teaching or not, so try and hold off the debate for as long as possible. Thanks.

No. It cannot alter the truth.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Thank you 1ke. Definitely the most clear answer so far.

 

[catharina]

Direct abortion is, in every situation, intrinsically evil, grave matter, and if done with full knowledge and free will a mortal sin. This is irrevocable because it is a moral truth. It is intrinsically evil. That means in-and-of-itself. There is no circumstance when it is not wrong.

The last part of your statement, regarding being punishable by excommunication is not doctrinal. That is a legislative penalty imposed by the Church. That is changeable.

Yes. It is an infallible teaching that abortion is intrinsically evil.

If there is a medical situation requiring the mother be treated, the mother can be treated. **Abortion is **not ****a treatment for a medical condition. Ever. People like to pretend that it is.

Definitely!
Beginning with the feminists and doctors who changed laws in the USA.

If the treatment involves removing the uterus, giving chemotherapy, or some other surgery, drug, etc., the mother may have that treatment. The baby may die, but that is not the purpose of the treatment or the primary outcome or intent.

If the baby can be delivered vaginally or via C-section as part of the treatment, prior to the treatment, etc, that can be done. If the baby does not live, that isn’t an abortion.

Both the mother AND child are patients, and the doctor must always strive to save both. The direct killing of one or the other is always a moral evil.

No. It cannot alter the truth.

 

[elts1956]

You can’t just apologize and pretend like it never happened. You have to regret or be sorry for offending God, and you have to work towards not doing it again. A priest can deny someone absolution if he thinks they will do it again, especially if he thinks they willingly or purposefully will do it again.

Someone I know was divorced, as was her new boyfriend. Though they were in the process of both getting their annullments, the lady went to Confession because she felt guilty for dating the guy. The priest told her she had to stop seeing the guy until both their annulments were complete. She said she couldn’t promise him this, and he told her he wouldn’t absolve her until she did. She wound up going to another priest and getting absolution but the point is, regarding the fact that you think excommunication doesn’t make senese if you can just apologize, that’s not how it’s supposed to work.

In the case of an abortion, there’s no doubt in my mind some women are truly sorry for the abortion, especially if they wanted the pregnancy but it had to be terminated to save their own lives. The priest of course would grant absolution, if the person regretted the action, and if the person doesn’t intend to do it again.

Face it people, everyone sins. We’re human. If we had no way to be absolved for sins, we’d all be in Hell, even the “pro-life” people. Absolution and reconciliation gives one a chance to make things right, when we’ve done wrong.

“especially if they wanted the pregnancy but it had to be terminated to save their own lives.” Can’t be done Rence. Haven’t we been through this before, somewhere, sometime, in the last week or so?

 

[catharina]

“especially if they wanted the pregnancy but it had to be terminated to save their own lives.” Can’t be done Rence. Haven’t we been through this before, somewhere, sometime, in the last week or so?

Yes.

 

[Rence]

“especially if they wanted the pregnancy but it had to be terminated to save their own lives.” Can’t be done Rence. Haven’t we been through this before, somewhere, sometime, in the last week or so?

Why do you feel the need to take a sentence out of my post and take it out of context? My post was about absolution and whether a person who has gotten an abortion could be sorry for their sin, despite their reasons, and could receive absolution.

But okay, have it your way: Evidently it can, and has. Women have gotten abortions because their life was in danger and have gotten absolution and remained in good standing with the Church. Whether you like it or not is irrelevent. It’s been done. This doesn’t change the teachings of the Church, but it’s been done. So obviously it can be done, because it is done. So saying it can’t be done is just being stubborn.

 

[catharina]

Why do you feel the need to take a sentence out of my post and take it out of context? My post was about absolution and whether a person who has gotten an abortion could be sorry for their sin, despite their reasons, and could receive absolution.

But okay, have it your way: Evidently it can, and has. Women have gotten abortions because their life was in danger and have gotten absolution and remained in good standing with the Church. Whether you like it or not is irrelevent. It’s been done. This doesn’t change the teachings of the Church, but it’s been done. So obviously it can be done, because it is done. So saying it can’t be done is just being stubborn.

Rence, the flaw in your reasoning is this:

“In the case of an abortion, there’s no doubt in my mind some women are truly sorry for the abortion, especially if they wanted the pregnancy but it had to be terminated to save their own lives. The priest of course would grant absolution, if the person regretted the action, and if the person doesn’t intend to do it again.”

There is no such allowance presented in Catholic teaching
and relying on a future “absolution” for one’s “regret” speaks to the sin of presumption.

You must see that, yes?

 

[x0stephanie]

I don’t doubt that these women are truly sorry for their abortions, even most non-religious women feel tremendous guilt after having one. Thats not really the point, these ladies knew exactly what they were getting into when they went to the Dr’s and asked for an abortion, walked into the clinic and had it done. Its one thing for a women to get one because she doesn’t believe its wrong, but for someone who knows better and decides to go ahead and do it anyway??? Going in with full knowledge that its a mortal sin, and they know they can go to reconciliation after? Thats just so crazy.

 

[x0stephanie]

There is no such allowance presented in Catholic teaching
and **relying on a future “absolution” for one’s “regret” speaks to the sin of presumption. **

You must see that, yes?

I didn’t see this post, but this is exactly what I’m trying to say. I know everyone deserves forgiveness but why even be Catholic if you’re going to get an abortion knowing you can just go confess after? Why is that even an option? It’s just strange to me that people are allowed to do this, and be in good standing with the church.

 

[catharina]

I didn’t see this post, but this is exactly what I’m trying to say. I know everyone deserves forgiveness but why even be Catholic if you’re going to get an abortion knowing you can just go confess after? Why is that even an option? It’s just strange to me that people are allowed to do this, and be in good standing with the church.

People might “seem” to be in good standing with the Church
but it is God Alone who knows what is in one’s heart.