Church Teaching on Abortion

[Rence]

If the woman didn’t consent to it and medical personnel went ahead and did it anyway then she can’t exactly be held accountable. I’m a nurse and I know that women get things done to them all the time against their wishes (things like unnecessary c-sections). If the dr feels that you are incompetent to make a decision they’ll just go ahead and decide for you. Those are usually emergency situations though, if you’re not already in the hospital, no one is forcing you to go there and get admitted.

There are no words to describe how disturbing and troubling it is to me to hear about procedures being done on patients without their consent and against their wishes. How do you cope with it? What can you do, as a nurse, when a patient tells you they do not want an abortion or a c-section, but their doctor forces it on them? Is there anything legal you can do? Because if the doctor is doing this, he has to have consent from somewhere, or the emergency is such that it is his responsibility to make the call. But what can a nurse do in these situations to advocate for their patient? Can you tell me about a real senario in which one of your patients was in this situation? If it’s off topic, please PM me. As a new nurse, these ethical dilemas are very disturbing and I’d like to know what I can and cannot do in these situations.

 

[elts1956]

first of all, we can’t compare a case in chicago with a case that happened elsewhere with another person. All the cases are different. All these cases are different and have to be looked at as the unique individual cases that they are. I don’t know about the case in chicago, but i’d agree: The sister at st. Joseph’s was excommunicated for allowing an abortion to be performed on a woman whose life was in danger, and yes it was against the rules of the church and she needed absolution. We don’t know about any of the other cases. Simple rule of thumb: If they got excommunicated, they did something for which church warranted excommunication. Usually.

Second of all, i’m not confused about what the church teaches about abortion. I know that the church forbids direct abortion in all circumstances. I’m just telling you that women (even one in particular who is on this forum) have had an abortion due to her life being in danger and her bishop told her she had no choice, in other words, she had to have the abortion or she would die. She was not excommunicated and is in good standing with the church. And we can go around in circles about it but the fact remains 1) the church forbids direct abortion in all cases (and i’m not a little confused about it, let alone very confused about it) and 2) there are catholics who have had abortions and are in good standing in the church whether they were absolved afterwards, or whether they told they had no choice, or whether they received counsel from the priest or bishop beforehand, and 3) none of the three possibilites matters because direct abortion is still forbidden by the church regardless. Though, thank you for making sure that i know the teachings, it’s very conscientious of you. It shows you care. But don’t worry, i know what the church teaches about abortion. I just don’t always agree with or understand the reasons and rationales, particular direct vs indirect, which is a whole new other topic.

Rence the reason we cannot take individual circumstances into consideration in the case of direct abortion is because abortion is an Intrinsic Evil and may NEVER NEVER be done. It is an absolute wrong. We are not participating in a secular murder case where circumstance might mitigate wrong doing. I can empathize with women having to make a decision between their own life and that of their child. I cannot imagine the horrendous trauma this causes. They had a choice. They made it. I personally don’t believe I could have lived with the decsion these women made. The Church does not consider such a situation self defense. ie. we may kill to defend ourselves, but not in this instance. As far as these women who have had to make such a decsion being in good standing in the Church, that is appearances. We do not know the condition of their souls no matter what clergy said she had no choice. The clergy was wrong in saying that, if that is what was said. And if they did, I also hope they pointed out to these women they did a terrible wrong. This can be forgiven if they are truly sorry for doing such an act.

No matter the circumstances abortion is Intrinsically Evil and can NEVER NEVER be done for ANY reason. I know, I am repeating myself. Just want to re emphasize, we must follow Church doctrine even though some clergy appear to minimize it.

How do you know they are in good standing with the Church? Because they go to communion, receive the Sacraments. Again, appearance can deceive. Only they knkw the state of their soul. Because the clergy said they “had no choice”? Very shaky ground. They did have a choice, this is the objective truth.

 

[Rence]

How do you know they are in good standing with the Church? Because they go to communion, receive the Sacraments. Again, appearance can deceive. Only they knkw the state of their soul. Because the clergy said they “had no choice”? Very shaky ground. They did have a choice, this is the objective truth.

We don’t know whether or not they are in good standing with the Church.
Only God and the person in quesiton knows that. And there is no reason for us to doubt the person because it’s between that person and God.

 

[elts1956]

We don’t know whether or not they are in good standing with the Church.
Only God and the person in quesiton knows that. And there is no reason for us to doubt the person because it’s between that person and God.

Then why do you keep saying they are “in good standing” with the Church as though it is a done deal??? How can you know? They flouted Church teaching and no matter the circumstances, this was a grevious sin. For the clergy to say she had no choice does not ring true. I do not understand where you are coming from.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Then why do you keep saying they are “in good standing” with the Church as though it is a done deal??? How can you know? They flouted Church teaching and no matter the circumstances, this was a grevious sin. For the clergy to say she had no choice does not ring true. I do not understand where you are coming from.

I agree, and unless we have an actual quote by said priest or said bishop, than this claim should be considered hearsay. (legally speaking)

 

[catharina]

I agree, and unless we have an actual quote by said priest or said bishop, than this claim should be considered hearsay. (legally speaking)

I agree as well.
I find the claim unbelievable.

Clergy might offer “understanding” of dire circumstances,
but they have something far more important to offer any penitent:

ABSOLUTION.

 

[Rence]

Then why do you keep saying they are “in good standing” with the Church as though it is a done deal??? How can you know? They flouted Church teaching and no matter the circumstances, this was a grevious sin. For the clergy to say she had no choice does not ring true. I do not understand where you are coming from.

You can only go by what the individual tells you, since you’re not their priest or bishop or any priest or bishop. It’s not our job to judge another person. That’s up to God.

 

[catharina]

You can only go by what the individual tells you, since you’re not their priest or bishop or any priest or bishop. It’s not our job to judge another person. That’s up to God.

A given for you seems to be you believe the individual, believe a priest and a bishop
told her that she had “No choice” but to have an abortion. You can’t believe that a forum
filled with Catholics - who are strangers to you - will believe her or you.

It’s not a matter of “judging.” It’s a matter of credibility.

 

[elts1956]

You can only go by what the individual tells you, since you’re not their priest or bishop or any priest or bishop. It’s not our job to judge another person. That’s up to God.

So, in other words you believe it would be okay for a priest, or other clergy to go against Church teaching and mollify the sinner by stating, “You had no choice”. I don’t believe ANY Faithfull clergy would say that.

 

[elts1956]

I agree, and unless we have an actual quote by said priest or said bishop, than this claim should be considered hearsay. (legally speaking)

 

[Rence]

A given for you seems to be you believe the individual, believe a priest and a bishop
told her that she had “No choice” but to have an abortion. You can’t believe that a forum
filled with Catholics - who are strangers to you - will believe her or you.

It’s not a matter of “judging.” It’s a matter of credibility.

I can believe that in forum filled with catholics, who are strangers to me, some will believe her or me, and some won’t. No one is forcing anyone to believe or not believe the words on the pages of this forum written by anyone, about anything. Unless it’s cited from a document viewable to all, the validity is questionable always. All those prayer intentions, all those personal experiences on the family life forum, all those bringing their questions to the forum out of problems from their perspective in their lives. It’s all hearsay and can’t be proved. Therefore, all posts regarding personal experiences are heresay, whether they’re positive or negative stories, whether they’re good or bad, or whether the readers likes them or not.

One can say that it’s not believeable that a priest would tell a woman, who had an abortion in order to save her own life, that he understands her dilema and that she had no other choice if she wanted to live. But why is it so impossible that a fellow forum member had this experience seemingly motivated by the kindness and charity of a priest? I guess it’s harder, in this day and age, to believe that a priest would actually shepherd his flock instead of send them to the slaughterhouse

I seriously doubt that if I went to one of my priests and told him that I had an abortion because my doctor said my life was in danger unless I did, or if I told him that I took Plan B in the ER after a rape, that they would do anything else but give me kind, compassionate counsel and absolve me without giving me a headache. And you know what? it really doesn’t matter who believes it or not, because I know where to go when I need someone to be there for me in my time of need.

 

[catharina]

**I can believe that in forum filled with catholics, who are strangers to me, some will believe her or me, and some won’t.

**  

**It's reassuring to hear that you realize that.  

Yet presenting the claim that a priest and bishop stated they think a woman "had no choice but to have an abortion" is saying something that sounds close to new "urban legend."  Now, you have qualified the "statement" of the clerics, adding that the cleric actually said "she had no other choice if she wanted to live."  

So odd, so unusual, so unlikely.  Ah, well ...  **

**~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~**

No one is forcing anyone to believe or not believe the words on the pages of this forum written by anyone, about anything. Unless it's cited from a document viewable to all, the validity is questionable always.  All those prayer intentions, all those personal experiences on the family life forum, all those bringing their questions to the forum out of problems from their perspective in their lives. It's all hearsay and can't be proved.  Therefore, *all* posts regarding personal experiences are heresay, whether they're positive or negative stories, whether they're good or bad, or whether the readers likes them or not. 

One can say that it's not believeable that a priest would tell a woman, who had an abortion in order to save her own life, that he understands her dilema and that she had no other choice if she wanted to live. But why is it so impossible that a fellow forum member had this experience seemingly motivated by the kindness and charity of a priest? I guess it's harder, in this day and age, to believe that a priest would actually shepherd his flock instead of send them to the slaughterhouse :shrug:

I seriously doubt that if I went to one of my priests and told him that I had an abortion because my doctor said my life was in danger unless I did, or if I told him that I took Plan B in the ER after a rape, that they would do anything else but give me kind, compassionate counsel and absolve me without giving me a headache. And you know what? it really doesn't matter who believes it or not, because I know where to go when I need someone to be there for me in my time of need.

 

[elts1956]

I agree, and unless we have an actual quote by said priest or said bishop, than this claim should be considered hearsay. (legally speaking)

I can believe that in forum filled with catholics, who are strangers to me, some will believe her or me, and some won’t. No one is forcing anyone to believe or not believe the words on the pages of this forum written by anyone, about anything. Unless it’s cited from a document viewable to all, the validity is questionable always. All those prayer intentions, all those personal experiences on the family life forum, all those bringing their questions to the forum out of problems from their perspective in their lives. It’s all hearsay and can’t be proved. Therefore, all posts regarding personal experiences are heresay, whether they’re positive or negative stories, whether they’re good or bad, or whether the readers likes them or not.

One can say that it’s not believeable that a priest would tell a woman, who had an abortion in order to save her own life, that he understands her dilema and that she had no other choice if she wanted to live. But why is it so impossible that a fellow forum member had this experience seemingly motivated by the kindness and charity of a priest? I guess it’s harder, in this day and age, to believe that a priest would actually shepherd his flock instead of send them to the slaughterhouse

I seriously doubt that if I went to one of my priests and told him that I had an abortion because my doctor said my life was in danger unless I did, or if I told him that I took Plan B in the ER after a rape, that they would do anything else but give me kind, compassionate counsel and absolve me without giving me a headache. And you know what? it really doesn’t matter who believes it or not, because I know where to go when I need someone to be there for me in my time of need.

IF he said what you originally stated, he was not shepherding his flock, but giving her a way to sooth her conscience. This is not Church Doctrine.

 

[Incomplete]

Regarding confession and abortion:

In early Church history, in the early days of martyrdom, some people “chickened out” and denied Christ rather than die. There was a lot of debate within the Church about how to handle that, but ultimately mercy won out.

I don’t know if any of you debating this have been told that you are likely to die if you didn’t have an abortion. Fortunately for me, I’ve never been in that position. I also understand and completely agree with the Church’s opinion on it.

But there are two scenarios I can easily imagine if you are in this situation.

The first is for people who are like I used to be. There was a time when I didn’t understand the teachings of the Church. I was always against abortion, but I felt that in the case of the life of the mother being at stake, the mother was the only one who could make the call. Now, if I had had to face that choice at that time in my life, I might have aborted my baby.

I’m also quite certain that if this had happened, ultimately I would’ve realized the horror of what I had done and would’ve truly repented. Should there be no mercy for someone like the person I was?

I can also envision a scenario where a woman is like I am now, faithful to Church teachings and understanding (and totally agree with) what the Church teaches in this case. I want to believe with my whole heart that if I were in that circumstance, I would choose life for my baby, just as I would hope that I would never deny Christ, even at the risk of martyrdom.

Yet I am weak. Would I indeed choose my baby, as I should? Or would I not be strong enough? Would I think of the grief of my family (especially my daughter), would my fear be too much? I would certainly be under duress, and likely have several sleepless nights, all of this making clear thinking difficult.

I can imagine in those circumstances doing the wrong thing, knowing it’s wrong, but not able to think clearly, maybe not having the courage to do the right thing. And later realizing the horror of it and truly repenting.

Should there be no mercy for me?

I can imagine what would happen if I went to my confessor in my grief. He knows me, he knows my heart. He would see my repentance, and he would recognize that I would be in my own private hell for years if not for the rest of my life. He would do his best to try to show me God’s mercy.

Would he say I had no choice? I don’t know if he would use those exact words, but if he did, of course he wouldn’t mean them exactly literally. Of course he’d know I had some kind of a choice. But the point is that it was a decision made under extreme duress, not completely clear thinking.

Maybe none of you can imagine being weak in those circumstances, but I can.

And I’m not certain, but I think this is the point Rence is trying to make.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Regarding confession and abortion:

In early Church history, in the early days of martyrdom, some people “chickened out” and denied Christ rather than die. There was a lot of debate within the Church about how to handle that, but ultimately mercy won out.

I don’t know if any of you debating this have been told that you are likely to die if you didn’t have an abortion. Fortunately for me, I’ve never been in that position. I also understand and completely agree with the Church’s opinion on it.

But there are two scenarios I can easily imagine if you are in this situation.

The first is for people who are like I used to be. There was a time when I didn’t understand the teachings of the Church. I was always against abortion, but I felt that in the case of the life of the mother being at stake, the mother was the only one who could make the call. Now, if I had had to face that choice at that time in my life, I might have aborted my baby.

I’m also quite certain that if this had happened, ultimately I would’ve realized the horror of what I had done and would’ve truly repented. Should there be no mercy for someone like the person I was?

I can also envision a scenario where a woman is like I am now, faithful to Church teachings and understanding (and totally agree with) what the Church teaches in this case. I want to believe with my whole heart that if I were in that circumstance, I would choose life for my baby, just as I would hope that I would never deny Christ, even at the risk of martyrdom.

Yet I am weak. Would I indeed choose my baby, as I should? Or would I not be strong enough? Would I think of the grief of my family (especially my daughter), would my fear be too much? I would certainly be under duress, and likely have several sleepless nights, all of this making clear thinking difficult.

I can imagine in those circumstances doing the wrong thing, knowing it’s wrong, but not able to think clearly, maybe not having the courage to do the right thing. And later realizing the horror of it and truly repenting.

Should there be no mercy for me?

I can imagine what would happen if I went to my confessor in my grief. He knows me, he knows my heart. He would see my repentance, and he would recognize that I would be in my own private hell for years if not for the rest of my life. He would do his best to try to show me God’s mercy.

Would he say I had no choice? I don’t know if he would use those exact words, but if he did, of course he wouldn’t mean them exactly literally. Of course he’d know I had some kind of a choice. But the point is that it was a decision made under extreme duress, not completely clear thinking.

Maybe none of you can imagine being weak in those circumstances, but I can.

And I’m not certain, but I think this is the point Rence is trying to make.

I think you’re right. But I think she lost people with this line:

“I guess it’s harder, in this day and age, to believe that a priest would actually shepherd his flock instead of send them to the slaughterhouse :shrug”

…Because it seems to me (though I might be misinterpreting her) she’s accusing Priests of doing something they’re not. A Priest who tells a woman, “I’m sorry, but I cannot consent to you having an abortion. I can’t just give you absolution afterward unless I feel you’re truly penitent for taking this course of action, and I don’t think that’s possible so immediately removed from the action,” is not sending her to the slaughterhouse, he’s telling her that the Truth and acting according to the teachings of the Church and through the discernment of his conscience, and there’s nothing at all wrong with that. It is certainly not akin to “sending them to the slaughterhouse”.

I’m not sure if that’s what Rence meant by that, but that’s certainly what it seemed like she meant.

 

[catharina]

I think you’re right. But I think she lost people with this line:

"I guess it’s harder, in this day and age, to believe that a priest would actually shepherd his flock instead of send them to the slaughterhouse ":shrug

…Because it seems to me (though I might be misinterpreting her) she’s accusing Priests of doing something they’re not. A Priest who tells a woman, “I’m sorry, but I cannot consent to you having an abortion. I can’t just give you absolution afterward unless I feel you’re truly penitent for taking this course of action, and I don’t think that’s possible so immediately removed from the action,” is not sending her to the slaughterhouse, he’s telling her that the Truth and acting according to the teachings of the Church and through the discernment of his conscience, and there’s nothing at all wrong with that. It is certainly not akin to “sending them to the slaughterhouse”.

I’m not sure if that’s what Rence meant by that, but that’s certainly what it seemed like she meant.

Agreed. The very imagery is horrible - and nothing but the meanest rhetoric.
The actual horror is that someone, an innocent baby, was killed in a slaughterhouse.

 

[Incomplete]

I think you’re right. But I think she lost people with this line:

“I guess it’s harder, in this day and age, to believe that a priest would actually shepherd his flock instead of send them to the slaughterhouse :shrug”

…Because it seems to me (though I might be misinterpreting her) she’s accusing Priests of doing something they’re not. A Priest who tells a woman, “I’m sorry, but I cannot consent to you having an abortion. I can’t just give you absolution afterward unless I feel you’re truly penitent for taking this course of action, and I don’t think that’s possible so immediately removed from the action,” is not sending her to the slaughterhouse, he’s telling her that the Truth and acting according to the teachings of the Church and through the discernment of his conscience, and there’s nothing at all wrong with that. It is certainly not akin to “sending them to the slaughterhouse”.

I’m not sure if that’s what Rence meant by that, but that’s certainly what it seemed like she meant.

And I might be wrong, too. I was under the impression she was talking about priests giving absolution after a woman repents from an abortion. When she said this:

But the fact of the matter is: there ARE women who have been in danger of losing their lives, and who were pregnant, and who (at the advice of their doctor) had abortions, and who were told by their priest and bishop that they had no other choice, and they recieved absolution and are in good standing with the Church.

I got the impression she’s saying the abortion came first, then they priest and bishop said they have no choice. I especially got that impression because this was later in that post:

I’m NOT saying that women should just go out and have abortions whenever they want and not worry about it because they’ll just go to confession.

And I do agree that if she’s talking about priests giving prior consent, that’s different. The priest (or the nun in the case discussed earlier) is not under the same kind of duress the pregnant woman is under, and they need to provide correct guidance.

 

[Rence]

And I might be wrong, too. I was under the impression she was talking about priests giving absolution after a woman repents from an abortion. When she said this:
I got the impression she’s saying the abortion came first, then they priest and bishop said they have no choice. I especially got that impression because this was later in that post:

yes, Incomplete, thank you. I was referring to those who talk to a priest after the abortion.

And I do agree that if she’s talking about priests giving prior consent, that’s different. The priest (or the nun in the case discussed earlier) is not under the same kind of duress the pregnant woman is under, and they need to provide correct guidance.

I don’t know if you were hear earlier in the thread. But I earlier I said I din’t know of any cases where the priest or bishops were consulted before the fact. In cases of true emergencies, I doubt one would be thinking about calling her priest in the heat of the moment.

 

[Rence]

IF he said what you originally stated, he was not shepherding his flock, but giving her a way to sooth her conscience. This is not Church Doctrine.

Again, I don’t feel it’s my place to tell a priest how to shepherd his flock.

Of course, if I want to tell someone something, I’ll tell them myself but I would not say that her priest is wrong. But I would not tell a priest the way he counsels someone is wrong.

 

[Incomplete]

yes, Incomplete, thank you. I was referring to those who talk to a priest after the abortion.

And in that case, I would have to agree with you, as I think I showed by my examples. People can truly repent after an abortion.

I don’t know if you were hear earlier in the thread. But I earlier I said I din’t know of any cases where the priest or bishops were consulted before the fact. In cases of true emergencies, I doubt one would be thinking about calling her priest in the heat of the moment.

I read the entire thread before posting, but you know how it goes. It’s sometimes difficult to keep track of it all. But that’s where I thought you were coming from.