Church Teaching on Abortion

[kimmielittle]

I have an extremely hard time believing this

“But the fact of the matter is: there ARE women who have been in danger of losing their lives, and who were pregnant, and who (at the advice of their doctor) had abortions, and who were told by their priest and bishop that they had no other choice, and they recieved absolution and are in good standing with the Church.”

It, without verification, is very misleading at the best of it.

Was this a tubal pregnancy? This would be the only time a Bishop might have said these words, IMHO.

Either the person saying these things doesn’t understand Catholic Teaching…enough to know That the Bishop would not say this UNLESS in the case of a tubal pregnancy or like chemo treatments…causing an indirect abortion…or they are purposely trying to manufacture - dishonesty into what was said.

I would not, personally, give this statement ANY merit…until more was told.

 

[Rence]

I have an extremely hard time believing this

It, without verification, is very misleading at the best of it.

Was this a tubal pregnancy? This would be the only time a Bishop might have said these words, IMHO.

Either the person saying these things doesn’t understand Catholic Teaching…enough to know That the Bishop would not say this UNLESS in the case of a tubal pregnancy or like chemo treatments…causing an indirect abortion…or they are purposely trying to manufacture - dishonesty into what was said.

I would not, personally, give this statement ANY merit…until more was told.

It’s not my place to devulge another person’s medical conditions. Ryecroft stated on this forum several times about her situation. It’d be best if you asked her, or just read through her posts. I just requoted what she said in another thread.

And again, people’s personal stories don’t require verification like church teachings do. No offense Kimmie, but would you ask every poster who told us about a personal experience for verification of their story? I may have missed it, but I’ve never seen it done here, though there are many personal stories on the forum. So – I just graduated from nursing school. One can either believe it or not, but I’m not about to post my BSN dipolma on the forum, therefore, anyone can say it’s hearsay or challenge it.

 

[catharina]

I have an extremely hard time believing this:

**SIZE=“1”]*Quote from other:
“But the fact of the matter is: there ARE women who have been in danger of losing their lives, and who were pregnant, and who (at the advice of their doctor) had abortions, and who were told by their priest and bishop that they had no other choice, and they recieved absolution and are in good standing with the Church.” ***

It, without verification, is very misleading at the best of it.

Was this a tubal pregnancy? This would be the only time a Bishop might have said these words, IMHO.

Either the person saying these things doesn’t understand Catholic Teaching…enough to know That the Bishop would not say this UNLESS in the case of a tubal pregnancy or like chemo treatments…causing an indirect abortion…or they are purposely trying to manufacture - dishonesty into what was said.

I would not, personally, give this statement ANY merit…until more was told.

Kimmie, thank you SO much.
You said it all so well.

 

[Incomplete]

I have an extremely hard time believing this

It, without verification, is very misleading at the best of it.

Was this a tubal pregnancy? This would be the only time a Bishop might have said these words, IMHO.

Either the person saying these things doesn’t understand Catholic Teaching…enough to know That the Bishop would not say this UNLESS in the case of a tubal pregnancy or like chemo treatments…causing an indirect abortion…or they are purposely trying to manufacture - dishonesty into what was said.

I would not, personally, give this statement ANY merit…until more was told.

I suppose it’s possible the Bishop’s words weren’t that she didn’t have a choice, but that she felt she didn’t have a choice.

As I said a few posts back, people do have abortions and later regret. If your doctor says you will die without an abortion, you might not think very clearly, have an abortion, and later regret it. And I can easily see going to my confessor in a state of repentance after something like that and, after he sees my grief, I can see him being compassionate and telling me he understands I felt I had no other choice. Is it really that hard to imagine a situation like that? Because though I am not the person who posted that, I’m pretty positive that if I truly repented, my confessor would be understanding and compassionate.

And if I truly repented, I believe God would be understanding and compassionate.

 

[Rence]

I suppose it’s possible the Bishop’s words weren’t that she didn’t have a choice, but that she felt she didn’t have a choice.

As I said a few posts back, people do have abortions and later regret. If your doctor says you will die without an abortion, you might not think very clearly, have an abortion, and later regret it. And I can easily see going to my confessor in a state of repentance after something like that and, after he sees my grief, I can see him being compassionate and telling me he understands I felt I had no other choice. Is it really that hard to imagine a situation like that? Because though I am not the person who posted that, I’m pretty positive that if I truly repented, my confessor would be understanding and compassionate.

And if I truly repented, I believe God would be understanding and compassionate.

It’s not hard for me to believe it. Confession is for sinners. What kind of priest would not absolve someone who confessed a sin they regretted, who wanted to reconcile with God, and who was asking for absolution? None that I know of… I wouldn’t want to know a priest like that. It’s his duty to pick up the fallen and guide them back to the Church. You can’t guide someone back to the Church by focusing on their past. You do so by guiding them in their future decisions.

 

[kimmielittle]

It’s not my place to devulge another person’s medical conditions. Ryecroft stated on this forum several times about her situation. It’d be best if you asked her, or just read through her posts. I just requoted what she said in another thread.

And again, people’s personal stories don’t require verification like church teachings do. No offense Kimmie, but would you ask every poster who told us about a personal experience for verification of their story? I may have missed it, but I’ve never seen it done here, though there are many personal stories on the forum. So – I just graduated from nursing school. One can either believe it or not, but I’m not about to post my BSN dipolma on the forum, therefore, anyone can say it’s hearsay or challenge it.

They don’t have to verify anything to me…But I don’t have to lend credence to their statement

Your diploma doesn’t present a scandal against Catholic Teaching. The statement made without verifiers seems too, IMHO

Congratulations!!!

 

[kimmielittle]

I suppose it’s possible the Bishop’s words weren’t that she didn’t have a choice, but that she felt she didn’t have a choice.

As I said a few posts back, people do have abortions and later regret. If your doctor says you will die without an abortion, you might not think very clearly, have an abortion, and later regret it. And I can easily see going to my confessor in a state of repentance after something like that and, after he sees my grief, I can see him being compassionate and telling me he understands I felt I had no other choice. Is it really that hard to imagine a situation like that? Because though I am not the person who posted that, I’m pretty positive that if I truly repented, my confessor would be understanding and compassionate.

And if I truly repented, I believe God would be understanding and compassionate.

Hiyas

What I’ve said…As the statement was made…without verification as to exactly what happened…I will personally, not give the statement, as written, merit.

 

[Rence]

They don’t have to verify anything to me…But I don’t have to lend credence to their statement

Your diploma doesn’t present a scandal against Catholic Teaching. The statement made without verifiers seems too, IMHO

Congratulations!!!

Thank you Kimmie that’s sweet of you!

And hey, no one says you have to believe everything you read here, it’s just an online forum. This week and last, I read a few things that supposedly were Church teachings and I believe they have no merit at all, regardless of documentation – and I don’t have to.

 

[Incomplete]

Hiyas

What I’ve said…As the statement was made…without verification as to exactly what happened…I will personally, not give the statement merit

Hi.

If a woman under duress makes a mistake and has an abortion, but later truly repents, why would it be wrong for a priest to agree that she felt she had no choice? I’m assuming it’s not the absolution you’re disagreeing with, but the wording, right?

 

[catharina]

Hi.

If a woman under duress makes a mistake and has an abortion, but later truly repents, why would it be wrong for a priest to agree that she felt she had no choice? I’m assuming it’s not the absolution you’re disagreeing with, but the wording, right?

Agreeing that one could feel one had no choice
is light years removed
from agreeing that one had no choice.

The distinction is crystal clear.

 

[catharina]

Thank you Kimmie that’s sweet of you!

And hey, no one says you have to believe everything you read here, it’s just an online forum. This week and last, I read a few things that supposedly were Church teachings and I believe they have no merit at all, regardless of documentation – and I don’t have to.

Documented Church teaching requires belief.
If it’s news to you, it’s news to you
but now it requires your belief.
Self-evident, I would think.

 

[kimmielittle]

Kimmie, thank you SO much.
You said it all so well.

 

[catharina]

It’s not hard for me to believe it. Confession is for sinners. What kind of priest would not absolve someone who confessed a sin they regretted, who wanted to reconcile with God, and who was asking for absolution? None that I know of… I wouldn’t want to know a priest like that. It’s his duty to pick up the fallen and guide them back to the Church. You can’t guide someone back to the Church by focusing on their past. You do so by guiding them in their future decisions.

Rence, I think you create a problem for yourself every time you use the term “regret.”
It’s not a usual way way to describe the “repentance” that leads to Reconciliation.
Really, I’ve only heard this “regret” usage from you. I find it very unusual.

 

[kimmielittle]

Hi.

If a woman under duress makes a mistake and has an abortion, but later truly repents, why would it be wrong for a priest to agree that she felt she had no choice? I’m assuming it’s not the absolution you’re disagreeing with, but the wording, right?

ABSOLUTELY…the wording

 

[Incomplete]

Agreeing that one could feel one had no choice
is light years removed
from agreeing that one had no choice.

The distinction is crystal clear.

But this happened in verbal conversation, so it’s a fine line.

None of us heard the conversation, so none of us know the exact wording. And I doubt that a priest, being human, is able to completely monitor every word he says every time.

That’s why I find this story believable. If a woman at the time of abortion feels she has no choice, later repents, goes to confession, says, “at the time I felt I had no choice”, I can easily see a priest echoing back, “You had no choice” to show he understood what she was saying. I can also see a priest saying “You felt you had no choice” and the woman reporting back that he said she had no choice. That doesn’t mean she was saying he thought it was OK for her to do. She may well have just told the story in gratitude for his compassion. We really don’t know the exact words or the intent of the words and never will, but those words can be said in understanding rather than as a statement of agreement that she had no choice.

So back to my other question, I’m assuming you have no problem with her being absolved?

Edit: Nevermind that last question, I just saw your answer.

 

[kimmielittle]

Thank you Kimmie that’s sweet of you!

iMHO, you will make a GREAT Nurse

And hey, no one says you have to believe everything you read here, it’s just an online forum. This week and last, I read a few things that supposedly were Church teachings and I believe they have no merit at all, regardless of documentation – and I don’t have to.

Yeppers!!!

 

[Rence]

Rence, I think you create a problem for yourself every time you use the term “regret.”
It’s not a usual way way to describe the “repentance” that leads to Reconciliation.
Really, I’ve only heard this “regret” usage from you. I find it very unusual.

Aww, well I’m really sorry that you have problems with the word “regret”. Just so we’re on the same page, from merriam-webster.com/netdict/regret

Regret:
1 a : to mourn the loss or death of b : to miss very much
2 : to be very sorry for

I’ve always been taught that in order to be absolved for a sin or sins, one must be sorry, or regret, what they have done.

I hope that helps.

 

[catharina]

But this happened in verbal conversation, so it’s a fine line.

None of us heard the conversation, so none of us know the exact wording. And I doubt that a priest, being human, is able to completely monitor every word he says every time.

That’s why I find this story believable. If a woman at the time of abortion feels she has no choice, later repents, goes to confession, says, “at the time I felt I had no choice”, I can easily see a priest echoing back, “You had no choice” to show he understood what she was saying. **I can also see a priest saying “You felt you had no choice” **and the woman reporting back that he said she had no choice. That doesn’t mean she was saying he thought it was OK for her to do. She may well have just told the story in gratitude for his compassion. We really don’t know the exact words or the intent of the words and never will, but those words can be said in understanding rather than as a statement of agreement that she had no choice.

So back to my other question, I’m assuming you have no problem with her being absolved?

Bolded above would indicate totally careless incompetence by the confessor.
I don’t believe such a statement would ever be made by the priest.

Yes, of course I believe the woman can confess and receive absolution. Please!

 

[Rence]

iMHO, you will make a GREAT Nurse

Yeppers!!!

That is so SWEET! Thank you Kimmie! :hug3:

 

[catharina]

Aww, well I’m really sorry that you have problems with the word “regret”. Just so we’re on the same page, from merriam-webster.com/netdict/regret

Regret:
1 a : to mourn the loss or death of b : to miss very much
2 : to be very sorry for

I’ve always been taught that in order to be absolved for a sin or sins, one must be sorry, or regret, what they have done.

I hope that helps.

Rence, the terminology used by our faith is specific. I’ve never heard anyone - except for you - refer to “regret.” For example, I might regret that I fogot to iron a scarf or a blouse. Fine. Do I expect it’s sufficient to “regret” an abortion? Ah, no.

Here are some old familiar words, known to many of us, repeated now just for you:

"1491 The sacrament of Penance is a whole consisting in three actions of the penitent and the priest’s absolution. The penitent’s acts are repentance, confession or disclosure of sins to the priest, and the intention to make reparation and do works of reparation.

1492 **Repentance **(also called contrition) must be inspired by motives that arise from faith. If repentance arises from love of charity for God, it is called “perfect” contrition; if it is founded on other motives, it is called “imperfect.”

1493 One who desires to obtain reconciliation with God and with the Church, must confess to a priest all the unconfessed grave sins he remembers after having carefully examined his conscience. The confession of venial faults, without being necessary in itself, is nevertheless strongly recommended by the Church.

1494 The confessor proposes the performance of certain acts of “satisfaction” or “penance” to be performed by the penitent in order to repair the harm caused by sin and to re-establish habits befitting a disciple of Christ.

1495 Only priests who have received the faculty of absolving from the authority of the Church can forgive sins in the name of Christ.

1496 The spiritual effects of the sacrament of Penance are:

• reconciliation with God by which the penitent recovers grace;
• reconciliation with the Church;
• remission of the eternal punishment incurred by mortal sins;
• remission, at least in part, of temporal punishments resulting from sin;
• peace and serenity of conscience, and spiritual consolation;
• an increase of spiritual strength for the Christian battle."

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a4.htm

By the way, I could easily do without your sarcasm
since I find nothing amusing about any of this.