Church Teaching on Death Penalty

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We are, however we will never be able to be called “successful” to deal with criminality if our only option to deal with them it through the death penalty.

I specially see you are using an “extreme case” to justify and generalize the application of the death penalty. It is the same mechanic pro-abortion advocates use, by saying unless abortion is available pregnant women will die. I’m sorry but I do not agree with this reasoning.

Not to mention as I stated before what the revised Catechism states.

This article might help to clarify some things

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...y-a-change-in-doctrine-or-circumstances-39898

God Bless
 
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Randolph said:
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Emeraldlady:
Taking your claim to it’s logical conclusion, do you charge all the Christian countries which have abolished the death penalty with disobedience to the Word of God?
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My conclusion is in communion with the Church which based its teachings from God and from its long tradition. It is a prudential judgement for countries to make decisions on whether to abolish or keep the death penalty. The death penalty has it roots and foundation in the long tradition of the Church. To say otherwise is incorrect and wrong.

To borrow from Ender’s quote from an earlier post:

“The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment which prohibits murder.” (Catechism of Trent, 1566)
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The qualification being a “just” use of the death penalty, implicitly prohibits the “unjust” use of the death penalty. The Trent Catechism goes on to say,

“The end of the Commandment is the preservation and security of human life. Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence.”

The death penalty in the light of greater awareness of man’s dignity, is being deemed as causing more harm than good and no longer fulfilling the purpose that qualifies it as ‘just’.

That is confirmed by Aquinas -

“Our Lord commanded them to forbear from uprooting the cockle in order to spare the wheat, i.e. the good. This occurs when the wicked cannot be slain without the good being killed with them, either because the wicked lie hidden among the good, or because they have many followers, so that they cannot be killed without danger to the good, as Augustine says (Contra Parmen. iii, 2). Wherefore our Lord teaches that we should rather allow the wicked to live, and that vengeance is to be delayed until the last judgment, rather than that the good be put to death together with the wicked.”

God allowed for the death penalty but commanded it be withheld if it did not serve the common good.
 
In circumstances where common, or greater, good is served, prudential judgement can be used to apply the death penalty.
 
You quoted St. Thomas Aquinas, but seemed to have missed his most direct quote about the death penalty:

“if a man be dangerous and infectious to the community, on account of some sin, it is praiseworthy and advantageous that he be killed in order to safeguard the common good” (Summa Theologica II, II, 64, 2).”
 
Randolph said:
You quoted St. Thomas Aquinas, but seemed to have missed his most direct quote about the death penalty:

“if a man be dangerous and infectious to the community, on account of some sin, it is praiseworthy and advantageous that he be killed in order to safeguard the common good” (Summa Theologica II, II, 64, 2).”
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No I didn’t miss that. Because we are now as a community more able to protect the community by better prisons systems, there is no justification to kill dangerous criminals. That is what the Church is saying.
 
“Emeraldlady said:
No I didn’t miss that. Because we are now as a community more able to protect the community by better prisons systems, there is no justification to kill dangerous criminals. That is what the Church is saying.
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Below is a re-post of a post I had made earlier.

“Since we have been discussing the death penalty from the Church’s point of view, it affects the whole world—not just the US.
  1. In the US and in “Western” countries in general where there are sufficient resources to lock up criminals for life, there have been numerous cases where drug king pins and mobsters/gangsters still ran their criminal operations from prisons and even ordered killings from prisons. Their actions indeed pose clear and real dangers to society;
  2. In most other countries especially in third world countries where this is little/no resources allocated to lock up criminals for life, convicted criminals/murderers/kidnappers could potentially (likely) get out of prison either via escape or bribery. This clearly also presents a clear danger to their societies.
  3. Retributive punishment is the primary reason for imposing the death penalty—not revenge. Deterrence and prevention are secondary.”
See 2 earlier posts of mine. Post #58 and #64. What about justice for these kidnapped children? Could one even possibly understand the great pain and sorrow that the mothers and fathers of these children experience? Can you tell these parents to their face that the kidnappers do not deserve the death penalty and that there is “no justification to kill dangerous criminals”?
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Randolph said:
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Emeraldlady:
No I didn’t miss that. Because we are now as a community more able to protect the community by better prisons systems, there is no justification to kill dangerous criminals. That is what the Church is saying.
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Below is a re-post of a post I had made earlier.

“Since we have been discussing the death penalty from the Church’s point of view, it affects the whole world—not just the US.
  1. In the US and in “Western” countries in general where there are sufficient resources to lock up criminals for life, there have been numerous cases where drug king pins and mobsters/gangsters still ran their criminal operations from prisons and even ordered killings from prisons. Their actions indeed pose clear and real dangers to society;
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Unless you are proposing the current death penalty qualifications in the US extend to include the drug king pins/mobsters/gangsters regardless of their crime, those situations will happen regardless. You can’t deem a person worthy of the death penalty in anticipation of crimes they may commit in prison.
Randolph said:
  • In most other countries especially in third world countries where this is little/no resources allocated to lock up criminals for life, convicted criminals/murderers/kidnappers could potentially (likely) get out of prison either via escape or bribery. This clearly also presents a clear danger to their societies.
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Except if you look at a globe showing countries still using the death penalty, very few are third world countries. There is a global awareness that the death penalty does not make for a more civilised and peaceful society regardless of a countries wealth or otherwise. Looking at such a map shows that the death penalty is mostly retained in Muslim majority countries, communist countries or India and Japan who are influenced by Eastern religions. The USA is alone among the Christian based societies in holding tight to the right to the death penalty.
 
Randolph said:
Retributive punishment is the primary reason for imposing the death penalty—not revenge. Deterrence and prevention are secondary.”
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Cardinal Dulles in his 2001 First Things article for the US explains this,

"In principle, guilt calls for punishment. The graver the offense, the more severe the punishment ought to be. In Holy Scripture, as we have seen, death is regarded as the appropriate punishment for serious transgressions. Thomas Aquinas held that sin calls for the deprivation of some good, such as, in serious cases, the good of temporal or even eternal life. By consenting to the punishment of death, the wrongdoer is placed in a position to expiate his evil deeds and escape punishment in the next life. After noting this, St. Thomas adds that even if the malefactor is not repentant, he is benefited by being prevented from committing more sins. Retribution by the State has its limits because the State, unlike God, enjoys neither omniscience nor omnipotence. According to Christian faith, God “will render to every man according to his works” at the final judgment (Romans 2:6; cf. Matthew 16:27). Retribution by the State can only be a symbolic anticipation of God’s perfect justice.

For the symbolism to be authentic, the society must believe in the existence of a transcendent order of justice, which the State has an obligation to protect. This has been true in the past, but in our day the State is generally viewed simply as an instrument of the will of the governed. In this modern perspective, the death penalty expresses not the divine judgment on objective evil but rather the collective anger of the group. The retributive goal of punishment is misconstrued as a self-assertive act of vengeance."
 
Emeraldlady said:
Unless you are proposing the current death penalty qualifications in the US extend to include the drug king pins/mobsters/gangsters regardless of their crime, those situations will happen regardless. You can’t deem a person worthy of the death penalty in anticipation of crimes they may commit in prison.
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I was talking about those murderers who continue their criminal operations while in prison and even order killings.
 
Randolph said:
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Emeraldlady:
Unless you are proposing the current death penalty qualifications in the US extend to include the drug king pins/mobsters/gangsters regardless of their crime, those situations will happen regardless. You can’t deem a person worthy of the death penalty in anticipation of crimes they may commit in prison.
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I was talking about those murderers who continue their criminal operations while in prison and even order killings.
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Is that a problem that the US with the death penalty doesn’t have at this time, or are you proposing an extension of the existing qualifications for the death penalty?
 
Emeraldlady said:
Is that a problem that the US with the death penalty doesn’t have at this time, or are you proposing an extension of the existing qualifications for the death penalty?
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Mobsters and gangsters order hit jobs while in prison… This means that while in incarceration criminals still pose great dangers to society.
 
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I will borrow Ender’s quotes to respond to your post. They are quite self explanatory:

The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment which prohibits murder. (Catechism of Trent, 1566)

…we establish that any priest or member of the clergy, either secular or regular, who commits such an execrable crime, by force of the present law be deprived of every clerical privilege, of every post, dignity and ecclesiastical benefit, and having been degraded by an ecclesiastical judge, let him be immediately delivered to the secular authority to be put to death (Pius VI, 1568)

Because God willeth and commandeth that malefactors be punished and killed , when they deserve it, that good men may be safe, and live in peace. (Catechism of St. Bellarmine, 1598)

If anyone strikes someone a fatal blow with an iron object, that person is a murderer; the murderer is to be put to death . (God - Num 35:16)
 
Randolph said:
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Emeraldlady:
Is that a problem that the US with the death penalty doesn’t have at this time, or are you proposing an extension of the existing qualifications for the death penalty?
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Mobsters and gangsters order hit jobs while in prison… This means that while in incarceration criminals still pose great dangers to society.
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Let me put it this way. Do you have statistics on how many death row prisoners have ordered murders on the outside?
 
Randolph said:
I will borrow Ender’s quotes to respond to your post. They are quite self explanatory:

The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment which prohibits murder. (Catechism of Trent, 1566)

…we establish that any priest or member of the clergy, either secular or regular, who commits such an execrable crime, by force of the present law be deprived of every clerical privilege, of every post, dignity and ecclesiastical benefit, and having been degraded by an ecclesiastical judge, let him be immediately delivered to the secular authority to be put to death (Pius VI, 1568)

Because God willeth and commandeth that malefactors be punished and killed , when they deserve it, that good men may be safe, and live in peace. (Catechism of St. Bellarmine, 1598)

If anyone strikes someone a fatal blow with an iron object, that person is a murderer; the murderer is to be put to death . (God - Num 35:16)
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Cardinal Dulles was a highly respected orthodox US prelate and in his theological wisdom and expertise he states-

"Retribution by the State can only be a symbolic anticipation of God’s perfect justice" .

If you want to take Enders interpretation over Cardinal Dulles, that’s up to you.
 
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Emeraldlady said:
There is a global awareness that the death penalty does not make for a more civilised and peaceful society regardless of a countries wealth or otherwise.
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Your opinion is not fact. Unless you can cite your source?
 
Emeraldlady said:
Cardinal Dulles was a highly respected orthodox US prelate and in his theological wisdom and expertise he states-

"Retribution by the State can only be a symbolic anticipation of God’s perfect justice" .

If you want to take Enders interpretation over Cardinal Dulles, that’s up to you.
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You know too well that Ender was quoting others. Nice try though…

But I will take the word of God over Cardinal Dulles. I trust you have no issue with that.

If anyone strikes someone a fatal blow with an iron object, that person is a murderer; the murderer is to be put to death . (God - Num 35:16)
 
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Randolph said:
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Emeraldlady:
There is a global awareness that the death penalty does not make for a more civilised and peaceful society regardless of a countries wealth or otherwise.
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Your opinion is not fact. Unless you can cite your source?
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“Among the signs of hope we should also count the spread, at many levels of public opinion, of a new sensitivity ever more opposed to war as an instrument for the resolution of conflicts between peoples, and increasingly oriented to finding effective but “non-violent” means to counter the armed aggressor. In the same perspective there is evidence of a growing public opposition to the death penalty, even when such a penalty is seen as a kind of “legitimate defence” on the part of society. Modern society in fact has the means of effectively suppressing crime by rendering criminals harmless without definitively denying them the chance to reform.”

John Paul II EVANGELIUM VITAE
 
Randolph said:
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Emeraldlady:
Cardinal Dulles was a highly respected orthodox US prelate and in his theological wisdom and expertise he states-

"Retribution by the State can only be a symbolic anticipation of God’s perfect justice" .

If you want to take Enders interpretation over Cardinal Dulles, that’s up to you.
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You know too well that Ender was quoting others. Nice try though…
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No Ender is using other’s prudential judgements to promote a personal interpretation.
 
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