Church Teaching on Death Penalty

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Maximus1 said:
Now if you said there is an observation of expedited repentance( in some cases) I might accept that observation.
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Saint Catherine of Siena, at least once, succeeded in converting a criminal before his execution.
 
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Saint Catherine was the agent. Not punishment. Same for the thief. Jesus was the agent, not dying
 
LeonardDeNoblac said:
The capital punishment in itself can’t be immoral. It has never been, and will never be. It’s only its application that would be immoral today, given the current circumstances.
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Any punishment can be applied immorally. Aside from that, given that the application of any punishment is a judgment, the worst that can be said about using capital punishment is that it is unwise.
peragrinatur said:
I wonder what Jesus thinks of the death penalty. I’m guessing he’s not a supporter.
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It is unlikely that Jesus would repudiate what God had established.
Maximus1 said:
Today, modern methods and science show us there are many unjust executions. Undercutting the rational of just.
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This is often claimed, but there is little evidence it is true. Since capital punishment was reestablished in the US in 1972 there have been at most a handful of wrongful executions, and quite literally in not one of them has innocence actually been established.
Maximus1 said:
The distinction with Capital punishment is finality. And this hits on another of Pope Francis points. His rational in terms of Church mission is the potentiality of salvation. Saving a soul. Which is lost with execution
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Execution cannot cause a person to lose his soul.

…one should not forget that no human sentence finally and definitively settles the fate of a man, but only the judgment of God, both for single acts and for those of a lifetime. (Pius XII)
 
Ender said:
It is unlikely that Jesus would repudiate what God had established.
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Jesus’s ministry was all about changing the Old Law. All I know is I’m not qualified to throw the first stone and I wouldn’t want to have to explain to Jesus what part of ‘thou shalt not kill’ I didn’t understand.
 
Ender said:
Any punishment can be applied immorally.
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That’s my point: it’s the application that can be immoral, not the punishment in itself.
Ender said:
It is unlikely that Jesus would repudiate what God had established.
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He is literally God. He established it Himself. And God can’t contradict Himself.
peragrinatur said:
Jesus’s ministry was all about changing the Old Law.
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Jesus didn’t change the law. He fulfilled it.
 
Also, read Romans 13:4. Paul doesn’t talk about a sword in vain. And Paul was an Apostle who knew the first disciples of Christ.
 
To your last point. Time is denied . Time to redeem ones own soul.
I am not sure of the threshold number of wrongly condemned and executed.
I do know just the CENTAL PARK 5 as a tiny exemplar of wrongly condemned. I don’t imagine much of a search for exculpatory evidence for the executed.
A complimentary argument made by Pope Francis involves the disproportional application of the poor and mentally challenged. Less likely with less resources to proove innocence or mitigation.
 
I wonder how that worked out when Pilate stood before God to receive judgment.
 
OneSheep said:
What does executing a prisoner have to do with the love of God for that person?
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Ender:
God wishes everyone to be saved. As capital punishment is expiatory, if the prisoner accepts his punishment that establishes his salvation.
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What you just explained is what salvation has to do with the love of God for the prisoner, but you did not answer the question.

Are you saying that the punishment establishes his salvation, or saying his acceptance of the punishment establishes his salvation? In either case, without his repentance, there is no “salvation” ( I mean that in the sense that he is freed from slavery). In either case, I did not see an explanation as to what executing a prisoner has to do with the love of God for that person.

You can name any other punishment meted by the US government, and it can be clearly shown what that punishment has to do with the love of God for that prisoner.
Ender said:
Truth does not change with the times
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Correct. The death penalty is not a “truth”. There is an underlying truth that has to do with God’s love.
Ender said:
This, in turn, is as little determined by the conditions of time and culture as the nature of man and the human society decreed by nature itself ’ (Pius XII)
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There is an error in saying that human society is only decreed by “nature itself”. It is the work of the Church that society is ultimately decreed by revelation. Jesus calls us to transcend our nature, and that transcendence means choosing forgiveness of a prisoner over desire to have him killed. The desire to have a murderer killed is very natural, but Jesus calls us to transcend the desire to punish. He calls us to forgive. When we do punish, we are to do so with forgiving hearts. If retribution is not for the benefit of the sinner, for the purpose of redressing the disorder within the offender himself, then it is just-plain-old revenge.

Nothing, absolutely nothing, can redress the disorder of the person having been murdered. Killing the murderer does not make the hurt go away. It does not fill the hole of the individual now lost by loved ones. The only thing that can be redressed is the disorder within the murderer himself.

For heaven’s sake, Ender, Jesus Himself was a prisoner and a victim of human desire to punish wrongdoing. Can you not see how important the discipline to forgive prisoners? Do you see that Jesus forgave the people who murdered Him? He did not call for their executions!
Ender said:
1958 The natural law is immutable and permanent throughout the variations of history;
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Killing prisoners is not “natural law”.
 
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Ender said:
This requires us to believe the Holy Spirit had abandoned the church on this issue for 2000 years for her to have been wrong for so long, and what you refer to as “outliers” would include virtually all of the Fathers, all of the Doctors, all of the councils, and in fact all of the popes prior to Francis. I feel like I’m in good company.
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Are you saying that you can speak for the Saints in heaven? Do you have special knowledge that says the Saints in heaven today think that the most recent teaching on the death penalty is wrong? Where do you get this special knowledge?

If you have such special knowledge, you are indeed an outlier.
 
Thom18 said:
Criminals jailed in the US have shanked other prisoners they also have their contacts on the outside that they can command to kill somebody. To think that prisoners cannot kill is naive.
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+1 That’s why I still support the death penalty. In theory, our prisons are safe and the DP is inadmissible, but in practice, it’s far from secure primarily like how you mentioned.
 
whichwaytogo47 said:
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Thom18:
Criminals jailed in the US have shanked other prisoners they also have their contacts on the outside that they can command to kill somebody. To think that prisoners cannot kill is naive.
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+1 That’s why I still support the death penalty. In theory, our prisons are safe and the DP is inadmissible, but in practice, it’s far from secure primarily like how you mentioned.
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From what I understand, death row is a unique setup isolated from general population. They are intensely monitored and supervised. Killing each other or leading a gang on the outside just doesn’t happen in that environment. Or are you suggesting that the death penalty be expanded to just kill everybody in general population because of this fear?
 
Emeraldlady said:
From what I understand, death row is a unique setup isolated from general population. They are intensely monitored and supervised. Killing each other or leading a gang on the outside just doesn’t happen in that environment. Or are you suggesting that the death penalty be expanded to just kill everybody in general population because of this fear?
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Do you propose maintaining a “death row” style surveillance if capital punishment is abolished? I agree that would be wise but would we really create a “he who would have been executed” class of prisoner?
 
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I wonder if Charles Manson repented before he died? He did not get the death penalty but was in prison for life.
 
OneSheep said:
The conscience of society has changed, it is now more aware.
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Lololol. You’re kidding, right? Abortion has killed more than all wars combined and they’re pushing euthanasia. More aware indeed. My sides are killing me. I just can’t take this seriously.
 
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