Church teaching on illegal immigration

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Ender said:
Given that the topic is what the Church teaches about illegal immigration and not about our personal opinions about it, let’s get back to what the bishops are saying. The most significant point is this: we have no moral obligation whatever to act in accordance with their wishes, expressed or implied.

The reason for this is that the Church has no position on any specific action that should or should not be taken. The issue of immigration, illegal or otherwise, is a prudential (political) issue about which we are free to form our own opinions and to act as we as individuals feel is best.

The bishops have seriously overstepped their authority to imply otherwise.

Ender
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betty_ann said:
:clapping:
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I would imagine it has to do with who and what the Bishops are supposed to be doing for the People of GOD, first and foremost…they are wholeheartly acting as, trained in and by and divinely ordained to be as GODLIKE, to act as GOD, to think and love as GOD…in keeping with their life’s devotion to GOD. Should they go against their own GODLIKENESS they would turn their backs tof the needs entrusted to them, of the People of GOD. This would not only be morally wrong, but, could also be construed as BAD, WRONG and EVIL…which they are NOT nor COULD EVER BECOME, as they are already SONS OF GOD!

Their lifelong, all encompassing, choice to be as and of GOD will never be changed to any overt decision to act bad, negative or evil as these forces are NOTHING of GOD…in every way, we too, as proclaimed, practicing, People of GOD, make our feelings and decisions based on the same premises. Some Christians and or Catholics may not like what is, regarding immigration, and you have every right to your decisions, however, do not belittle or show such disrespect to GOD Teachers, in their holiness…
 
LayingHands said:
Their lifelong, all encompassing, choice to be as and of GOD will never be changed to any overt decision to act bad, negative or evil as these forces are NOTHING of GOD…in every way, we too, as proclaimed, practicing, People of GOD, make our feelings and decisions based on the same premises. Some Christians and or Catholics may not like what is, regarding immigration, and you have every right to your decisions, however, do not belittle or show such disrespect to GOD Teachers, in their holiness…
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You need to be able to distinguish between what the bishops do as teachers of faith and morals and what they proclaim as individuals. What the bishops have done in regard to immigration is to step over the bounds of teaching what the Church teaches into pushing for specific solutions to practical problems. Whatever their charism is in regard to Church teaching they have none whatever when proposing their personal solutions to political problems.

There is no Church position on amnesty. There is no Church position on whether a fence should be built. There is no Church position on the number of immigrants the country should admit annually. There is no Church position on the access of illegals to social services. The bishops do us a grave disservice to suggest that not only does the Church have answers to these questions but that we are behaving in some vaguely immoral way when, as individuals, our perspectives on these practical problems differ from theirs.

When they step away from their roles as moral leaders and take on the roles of political activists they do not take with them the deference due them as leaders of the Church. They merit no more consideration than one would give any other political action group. Frankly, I think they deserve condemnation for confusing the faithful about their moral obligations and for bringing disrespect to their own office. They are not politicians. If they want to wield political influence then they should resign as bishops and run for public office; at least then they wouldn’t create such moral confusion.

Ender
 
Ender said:
You need to be able to distinguish between what the bishops do as teachers of faith and morals and what they proclaim as individuals. What the bishops have done in regard to immigration is to step over the bounds of teaching what the Church teaches into pushing for specific solutions to practical problems. Whatever their charism is in regard to Church teaching they have none whatever when proposing their personal solutions to political problems.

There is no Church position on amnesty. There is no Church position on whether a fence should be built. There is no Church position on the number of immigrants the country should admit annually. There is no Church position on the access of illegals to social services. The bishops do us a grave disservice to suggest that not only does the Church have answers to these questions but that we are behaving in some vaguely immoral way when, as individuals, our perspectives on these practical problems differ from theirs.

When they step away from their roles as moral leaders and take on the roles of political activists they do not take with them the deference due them as leaders of the Church. They merit no more consideration than one would give any other political action group. Frankly, I think they deserve condemnation for confusing the faithful about their moral obligations and for bringing disrespect to their own office. They are not politicians. If they want to wield political influence then they should resign as bishops and run for public office; at least then they wouldn’t create such moral confusion.

Ender
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You appear confused and disrespectful of GOD’s teachers, messengers, teaching and biblical doctrines…whether you care to separate the two, religious and political, is in this case and many other areas, inseparatable…your confusion in demanding as a citizen of these United States, a separation of Church and State…is clearly a definite Political stance only. Morally and spiritually, in keeping with GOD’s Laws and Doctrines, in the overall teaching, care and love of GOD’S People…makes it IMPOSSIBLE to separate the two issues for the RCC…it is best to continue how the Church has always treated this problem and accept it has been this way since the beginning…and MUST continue along the same lines. They are never acting as strict politicians, but they will ALWAYS religiously protect, care for, teach and LOVE, the People of GOD, everywhere…their service to GOD will always come first, for they are not answerable to anyone else on this Earth. Maybe there is another church which will fall along your way of thinking…could be less aggravating for you, easier to live with and accept…
 
Hi Friend

I would recommend to you praying and taking the Holy Eucharist more often, The Racial division is larger that we think, and hate is growing with nonsense arguments, but I am here to participate and show you another point of view.

First of all, The Racial division is made by Evil, and practice by those that attach to it.

We are call to be light in this world and leave it little better, Do you know how to get into the Gate of the City of God?

Plus I don’t really know why The Catholic Church to start to help people by making them enjoy the English Mass, what is the problem with that? Racial Division???

I wanna talk just about the " Illegal immigrants" what it is a wrong label, please note that we all can improve your life in any part of this planet, specially if you are willing to promote the common good of The Society.

You could notice that spreading common good in Society will be win/win situation, if we have more people like Americans and assimilating your culture we will have a better situation, here in US and out of here.

You must understand that “Illegal Immigrants” have nothing to do with the major economic crises and the evil attack to US.

they are just human beings with the same necessity that you have , if we solve the culture assimilation and making them pay for their mistake it would solve a little be the racial division.

If the call is for assimilation let’s start helping people out, if the problem it is taxes let them pay it, and pay for their mistake.

but Listen paying with jail time, deportation, hate, discrimination or stating killing them is very unfair for people that are looking for a better life.

Would you taste the same?
 
d97c said:
d97c
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Hi Friend

I would recommend to you praying and taking the Holy Eucharist more often, The Racial division is larger that we think, and hate is growing with nonsense arguments, but I am here to participate and show you another point of view.

First of all, The Racial division is made by Evil, and practiced by those that attach to it.

We are call to be light in this world and leave it a little better, Do you know how to get into the Gate of the City of God?

Plus I don’t really know why The Catholic Church to start to help people by making them enjoy the English Mass, what is the problem with that? Racial Division???

I wanna talk just about the " Illegal immigrants" what it is a wrong label, please note that we all can improve your life in any part of this planet, specially if you are willing to promote the common good of The Society.

You could notice that spreading common good in Society will be win/win situation, if we have more people like Americans and assimilating your culture we will have a better situation, here in US and out of here.

You must understand that “Illegal Immigrants” have nothing to do with the major economic crises and the evil attack to US.

they are just human beings with the same necessity that you have , if we solve the culture assimilation and making them pay for their mistake it would solve a little be the racial division.

If the call is for assimilation let’s start helping people out, if the problem it is taxes let them pay it, and pay for their mistake.

but Listen paying with jail time, deportation, hate, discrimination or stating killing them is very unfair for people that are looking for a better life.

Would you taste the same?
 
Ender said:
You need to be able to distinguish between what the bishops do as teachers of faith and morals and what they proclaim as individuals. What the bishops have done in regard to immigration is to step over the bounds of teaching what the Church teaches into pushing for specific solutions to practical problems. Whatever their charism is in regard to Church teaching they have none whatever when proposing their personal solutions to political problems.

There is no Church position on amnesty. There is no Church position on whether a fence should be built. There is no Church position on the number of immigrants the country should admit annually. There is no Church position on the access of illegals to social services. The bishops do us a grave disservice to suggest that not only does the Church have answers to these questions but that we are behaving in some vaguely immoral way when, as individuals, our perspectives on these practical problems differ from theirs.

When they step away from their roles as moral leaders and take on the roles of political activists they do not take with them the deference due them as leaders of the Church. They merit no more consideration than one would give any other political action group. Frankly, I think they deserve condemnation for confusing the faithful about their moral obligations and for bringing disrespect to their own office. They are not politicians. If they want to wield political influence then they should resign as bishops and run for public office; at least then they wouldn’t create such moral confusion.

Ender
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Very well stated. Thank you for the clarity on this topic of illegal immigration.
 
lovebrothers said:
“I would recommend to you praying and taking the Holy Eucharist more often.”

Welllll…“love bro.” So…how do you start that “love” with me…lets see…you start your post to me by telling me that you know enough about me and my views to recommend frequent prayer and Holy Communion? Are you “Father Love Bro??”

That patronizing attitude and message is insulting. Is it ok if I recommend that you pray more and go to Mass more and then hope you change your views?
I would recommend you educate yourself on the effects of illegal aliens…and I recommend you start here:

cis.org/catholics-and-immigration

and here:

cis.org/ReligionAndImmigrationPoll

cis.org/Transcripts/Relig…sonImmigration

cis.org/Transcripts/ImmigrationAndCrimePanel

cis.org/node/1071

cis.org/Video/HealthCare-Immigration-Panel

Then…when you learn enough to comment…maybe you can tell me how to practice my Faith
What do you tell those Mexicans (or wherever) who are still in Mexico because they havent been able to come here and will not violate the law??
What in your Catholic Faith tells people to violate the law, sneak in here, take someone’s identity (their SS #) and then tell another people of another country to take care of you, give you free schooling, free ER care (and shut down ERs in California) ??? I missed that in the Baltimore Catechism !
Love ya bro !
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d97c said:
Before you start running people out of the Faith, read what the catechism says about illegal aliens…
jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/03/immigration_cat.html

and what Father Peridans says about illegals:
cis.org/catholics-and-immigration

Under your beliefs, we ought just to open up the borders and let everyone in here…thats really radical…especially since this nation has a 10% unemployment rate !!
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Dear, personally, should anyone want to do the manual landscaping/yardwork jobs, home improvement jobs, housecleaning jobs, child care rearing jobs, cooking jobs…all they need to do is hustle!..and those jobs will fall right into their laps…
 
d97c said:
lovebrothers;6325480:
Hi d97c,

I kind know a lot about you by the way you talk and by the way you “practice” your faith.

As your brother love i have to preach to you about love, and may be teach you a little be.

I do recommend to you pray and the holy Eucharist without doubt it.

Ask Jesus to clean your heart and teach his way not your way to love your self.

I always go to church and I try to contemplate God’s will and I try hard to improve my life and my faith with the help of The church, the Saints and The Holy Trinity.

If I don’t preach love to you who will do it?

I found a little part of a book called The Introduction to a Devout Life by St. Francis de Sales,that may starts changing your perception of reality, may you buy the book for your self, but hear theses words.

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. ( Matt. 5, 3.)

Love the poor and poverty and you shall become truly poor, since, as the scripture says, we are made like the things which we love. Love makes the lovers equal:…

… now if you love the poor, be often in their company, be glad to see them in your house and to visit them in theirs. Converse willingly with them, be pleased to have them near you in the church, in the streets and elsewhere. Be poor in conversing with them, speaking to them as their companion; but be rich in assisting, by imparting your goods to them since you have more abundance.

Besides, Philothea, do not content yourself to be as poor, but poorer than the poor themselves; but how may this be affected? The servant is lower than his master: make your self a servant of the poor: go and serve them in their beds when they are sick, serve them with your own hands, prepare their food for them yourself and at your own expenses, be their seamstress and laundress. O philothea, this service is more glorious that a kingdom.

it is a lot to teach you , may you try to bring them to the mass in English , theses people are not an enemy, at least those that are here to learn the America way that you wanna deny to them.
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There are so many things the pro-illegals say that are false…Here’s one–“These illegals are taking jobs Americans wont do.” NOT TRUE.

Jobs Americans Won’t Do? A Detailed Look at Immigrant Employment by Occupation
By Steven A. Camarota, Karen Jensenius
August 2009

Steven A. Camarota is the Director of Research and Karen Jensenius is a demographer at the Center for Immigration Studies.

This analysis tests the often-made argument that immigrants only do jobs Americans don’t want. If the argument is correct, there should be occupations comprised entirely or almost entirely of immigrants. But Census Bureau data collected from 2005 to 2007, which allow for very detailed analysis, show that even before the recession there were only a tiny number of majority-immigrant occupations. (Click here to see detailed table.)

Among the findings:

Of the 465 civilian occupations, only four are majority immigrant. These four occupations account for less than 1 percent of the total U.S. workforce. Moreover, native-born Americans comprise 47 percent of workers in these occupations.

Many jobs often thought to be overwhelmingly immigrant are in fact majority native-born:
Maids and housekeepers: 55 percent native-born
Taxi drivers and chauffeurs: 58 percent native-born
Butchers and meat processors: 63 percent native-born
Grounds maintenance workers: 65 percent native-born
Construction laborers: 65 percent native-born
Porters, bellhops, and concierges: 71 percent native-born
Janitors: 75 percent native-born

There are 93 occupations in which 20 percent or more of workers are immigrants. These high-immigrant occupations are primarily, but not exclusively, lower-wage jobs that require relatively little formal education.

There are 23.6 million natives in these high-immigrant occupations (20 percent or more immigrant). These occupations include 19 percent of all native workers.

Most natives do not face significant job competition from immigrants; however, those who do tend to be less-educated and poorer than those who face relatively little competition from immigrants.

In high-immigrant occupations, 57 percent of natives have no more than a high school education. In occupations that are less than 20 percent immigrant, 35 percent of natives have no more than a high school education. And in occupations that are less than 10 percent immigrant, only 26 percent of natives have no more than a high school education.

In high-immigrant occupations the average wages and salary for natives is one-fourth lower than in occupations that are less than 20 percent immigrant.

Some may believe that natives in high-immigrant occupations are older and that few young natives are willing to do that kind of work. But 33 percent of natives in these occupations are age 30 or younger. In occupations that are less than 20 percent immigrant, 28 percent of natives are 30 or younger.

It is worth remembering that not all high-immigrant occupations are lower-skilled and lower-wage. For example, 44 percent of medical scientists are immigrants, as are 34 percent of software engineers, 27 percent of physicians, and 25 percent of chemists.

It is also worth noting that a number of politically important groups tend to face very little job competition from immigrants. For example, just 10 percent of reporters are immigrants, as are only 6 percent of lawyers and judges and 3 percent of farmers and ranchers.
 
Love bro…I’ve read St Francis de Sales …plenty of times…
Look…the problem with the whole Church dealing with this issue is that there is a right to “migrate” but there is also a right, recognized by Pope JP 2 that the host country has the right to prohibit illegal immigration …and the catechism says the following:

2241 The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.

I’ve highlighted three important qualifiers that are often dropped out in this discussion.

The first recognizes that there is a limit to the number of immigrants that a nation can absorb. Common sense tells you this: No nation can absorb an unlimited number of immigrants.

Precisely how many a particular country can reasonably absorb is a determination that must ultimately be made by the laity, who are charged with ordering the temporal affairs of society and suffusing them with the Christian spirit.

The laity are not served in this task by individuals who speak as if Catholic teaching requires an open border policy that does not recognize that there is a limit to the number of immigrants that a country can reasonably absorb or the responsibility of the laity in making the practical determination of what this number is.

Love bro------what you have read means that the host country…thats us…can decide how many and what education level we need …NOT the illegals. Do I get to decide if I can sneak into a restaurant and steal food instead of going to the legal avenues to get what I can??? Thats just what the aliens do. Love bro-----what do you tell the person who is legally trying to get in here…Sorry…you obeyed the law ???
 
d97c

The information shows that the majority of American take that job or you would need a lot skilled immigrants from other country to come here, you tell that 40 + millions of “illegal Immigrants” are getting here by the second, and theses people are long that this recession and suffering a lot more because they are been oppressed, humiliated by society.

probably prisons camps and mass death are ahead , with civil disorder, what shame for the Great America…

but you will be there trying to killing them aren’t you?
 
d97c

when you say that may US is not able to have more “illegal immigrants” I really do agree with you, not me the whole world , even the Mexican too.

The problem is what America will do with the ones that are here please have mercy, don’t kill them, don’t put them on jails, don’t hit them, they just wanna improve their lives they are not war enemy.
 
Let Jesus touch your heart and heal your spirit, I understand your pain, when people need to do steal to survive or to be alive we have mercy and may they pay you with work.

by rehabbing many junked communities if you could pay they will pay, they will learn the language, what is imposed is not that hard, but without mercy is not hope.

Please don’t kill them God will take care of them keep them safe from you.

I don’t believe you learned anything , don’t forget to bring your paper over the gate of the city of God if you find the way.
 
**Lord, make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is sadness, joy;

O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.

For it is in giving that we receive;
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.**
 
Believe America is a GREAT , and The American people will have mercy and will help and will find fair solution , America have showed love many many times friend.
 
Oh stop with the “killing” thing !!! Just quit it…
All we want is for people to stop hiring illegals and illegals stop coming here to work ILLEGALLY. Is that hard for you to understand??
If someone is here illegally, the Church should feed them and not the tax payers of this nation. Then the Church should help them go back home. No one wants to kill anyone so stop that silliness. This nation has 10% unemployment. If no illegals to drag down wages and we can get AMERICANS jobs that pay.
Love bro-----are you aware of how strict the laws are in Mexico for people to get in there…to immigrate INTO Mexico??
This shows the silliness of your argument: Lets say we write Obama and say this>>>
Dear President Obama:

I’m planning to move my family and extended family into Mexico and I would like to ask you to assist me.

We’re planning to simply walk across the border from the U.S. into Mexico, and we’ll need your help to make a few arrangements.

We plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas and laws.

I’m sure they handle those things the same way you do here. So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Calderon, that I’m on my way over?

Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:
  1. Free medical care for my entire family.
  2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, whether I use them or not.
  3. Please print all Mexican government forms in English.
  4. I want my grandkids to be taught Spanish by English-speaking (bi-lingual) teachers.
  5. Tell their schools they need to include classes on American culture and history.
  6. I want my grandkids to see the American flag on one of the flag poles at their school.
  7. Please plan to feed my grandkids at school for both breakfast and lunch.
  8. I will need a local Mexican driver’s license so I can get easy access to government services.
  9. I do plan to get a car and drive in Mexico, but I don’t plan to purchase car insurance, and I probably won’t make any special effort to learn local traffic laws.
  10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from their president to leave me alone, please be sure that every patrol car has at least one English-speaking officer.
  11. I plan to fly the U.S. Flag from my house top, put U. S. Flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.
  12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, or have any labor or tax laws enforced on any business I may start.
  13. Please have the president tell all the Mexican people to be extremely nice and never say critical things about me or my family, or about the strain we might place on their economy.
  14. I want to receive free food stamps.
  15. Naturally, I’ll expect free rent subsidies.
  16. I’ll need income tax credits so although I don’t pay Mexican taxes, I’ll receive money from the government.
  17. Please arrange it so that the Mexican Gov’t pays $4,500 to help me buy a new car.
  18. Oh yes, I almost forgot, please enroll me free into the Mexican Social Security program so that I’ll get a monthly income in retirement.
I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all his people who walk over to the U.S. from Mexico. I am sure that President Calderon won’t mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely.

Thank you so much for your kind help. You’re the man!!!
 
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