Church teaching on Islam

[jam070406]

WOW. Post # 3 in this very thread!
It says it all.
Some accept the teachings of the church.
Others dissent from the teachings of the Church.

It is SO simple!

Yes. Let’s break it down, in light of 2000 years of Tradition and the Catholic Faith as a whole. Shall we? This is taken from Lumen Gentium. The source document that the CCC is taken from. And it is more in depth.

1. Finally, those that who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. (Christians) (18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(The Jews, who became Christians) (125) On account of their fathers (Who became Christ’s followers) this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts (He is faithful to offer the gift due to the faithfulness of their Fathers, in receiving the testament of Christ) He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation (Jesus Christ and His Church) also includes (through accepting the Gospel upon hearing) those who acknowledge the Creator (Jesus, through whom all things were made). In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham (holding the faith of Abraham is holding belief in the Trinity, which comes after hearing the Gospel) , (notice the punctuation? The single Mohamedans, not ALL Mohamedans) along with us (after conversion, and through sacrifice of the Holy Mass) adore the one and merciful God (Trinity), who on the last day will judge mankind (Jesus is Judge).

ewtn.com/library/councils/v2church.htm

And the more ambiguous wording of the CCC.

CCC 841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims.
“The plan of salvation (Jesus) also includes those who acknowledge the Creator (those who acknowledge Jesus), in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims (who accept the gift/plan of salvation); these profess to hold the faith of Abraham (belief in the Trinity), and together with us (as they would now be Christians) they adore (in the pure unbloody sacrifice of the Mass) the one, merciful God (Jesus/Trinity) , mankind’s judge (Jesus) on the last day.”

LG goes on to further say:

Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel. (note: Muslims need the Gospel, Jesus…which is the plan of salvation) (20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. (In Christ) But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator. (This sums up Muslims pretty well, they have exchanged God for a lie)

(emphasis mine)

 

[catharina]

My dear Catharina

I’ve read your posts for years & years as well as others on here and many -a- times, I’ve kept my mouth shut.

You are tenacious, aren’t you.

**Yes, even more than that.

My father depersonalized and used to say that I was like a dog with a bone.
Still he understood that habit - as did all of the family.
My sister (also tenacious) and I were raised with six brothers, and we were
often in contact with our seven uncles and 16 male first-cousins.
It could be very difficult for the females to be heard! No surprise there.**

There are no separate rules on CAF…

Still I must disagree.
CA is firm about discussion, not debate between members.
So I sincerely THANK you for pointing out a different approach
for the thread on non-Catholic religions.

CAF is what it is.

Rules are rules.

I was simply stating that this is discuss & debate site. Simply that.

If this “CAF” was members only as in Catholics ONLY, then we would not be allowed in here.

So therefore you have a handful of posters from all sorts, including Catholics who do not agree with CCC841 -

Yet Catholics KNOW they must accept the teaching. All else is dissent.

Matthew 5:39 = And Jesus said… “turn the other cheek”

What gets my “on my throat” on this forum is how quickly we Christians turn against each other and islam is laughing. What gets to me (‘on my throat’) is Catholics choosing to dissent, to reject the teachings of the Church on a public forum, on a Catholic forum in fact. It is heartbreaking from my point of view.

Before this thread comes to an end, I hope I can say this to jakasaki.
See red above! Again, jakasaki, my thanks to you.

 

[catharina]

May I suggest that this thread has outlived any usefulness it might once have had?

Now,
I agree as well.

 

[rinnie]

It is not simple at all. The Christians worship a Trinitarian God…Father, Son and Holy Spirit…the Trinity one in essence and undivided. The muslims reject this outright.

Many people are confused as to why the Catholic Church might be saying that muslims, along with Catholics, adore the same God.

Is the Catholic Church separating out the Father from the Son and the Holy Spirit and saying that the Muslims worship God the Father…but not God the Son and God the Holy Spirit?

I hope not.

How in the world could the CC separate the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit from the One true God when it is the CC that teaches the Trinity the One true God is made up of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Where is the Trinity taught if not through the CC? That is what you and I cannot agree on.

You claim the Trinity the One God made up of the 3 person is clearly spoken in the O.T. That is where we are in disagreement about.

The CCC teaches us that,

Even Protestants who protest the teaching of the RCC will give you that.

 

[rinnie]

“Most papal and conciliar teachings pertain to the Church’s ordinary teaching authority (magisterium) and are understood as authentic teachings—but not infallible in the sense of Vatican I’s teaching about infallibility.”(americancatholic.org/messenger/aug2004/Wiseman.asp)

There are two levels of assent to magisterial teachings:

1. the full assent of faith (theological assent, or sacred assent) for infallible magisterial teachings (i.e. formal dogmas).
2. the religious submission of will and intellect (religious assent, or ordinary assent) for non-infallible teachings (doctrines, but not dogmas). (catholicplanet.com/TSM/levels-of-assent.htm)

Pope John Paul II: “With respect to the non-infallible expressions of the authentic magisterium of the Church, these should be received with religious submission of mind and will.” (Address to U.S. Bishops, 1988).

Huh? authentic but not infalible?

 

[rinnie]

Where do you get this from? You seem to believe Muslims believe in the same God you do. They certainly do not believe in my God - the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

And yet you claim to be Roman Catholic and your Pope teaches this. Did you ever pick up the Vat. Council ll? Maybe you should.

 

[Mickey]

How in the world could the CC separate the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit from the One true God

And yet the “same God” teaching seems to do just that.

You claim the Trinity the One God made up of the 3 person is clearly spoken in the O.T. That is where we are in disagreement about.

Indeed.

 

[jam070406]

And yet you claim to be Roman Catholic and your Pope teaches this. Did you ever pick up the Vat. Council ll? Maybe you should.

I linked to it above.

It has alot to do with what it doesn’t say. But we have 2000 years of Tradition to weed through the ambiguity that leads to error, if not read in light of Tradition.

 

[rinnie]

I did. I am sorry that you cannot see it. One of my favorites is the hospitality of Abraham in the book of Genesis.

Albeit a wanderer, Abraham was given the honor of symbolically hosting the one Lord, in His three hypostases; as hypersubstantial, in the guise of males ."
** (Canon of Midnight Prayer, ode 6** sung on the Sunday of the Paralytic) **

---

St Cyril of Alexandria and St Ambrose of Milan interpreted this passage as a pre-depiction of the Holy Trinity.

And now back on topic. Islam does not accept the Holy Trinity…as revealed in the Old or the New Testament. And hence that is why it is impossible that they adore the one true God…the Trinitarian God.

Who ever said they do. It is not that we reject that Isalm accepts the Holy Trinity. I quoted you and others numerous times how they reject Christ in the Trinity. Why do you continue to say this. Where did anyone here every say MUSLIMS accept Christ in the Trinty.

The Pope said they accept Christ as a prophet. I showed you that. I said that we are taught that although the Muslims do not worship God in the Perfect way through the Trinity. they do worship the One true God who is the God of Abraham.

You said you can show me where the Trinity is revealed as the 3 Person in One God. I asked you to show me this in the O.T.

According to the CCC The sending of the person of the Spirit AFTER Jesus’ gloriication REVEALS in its FULLNESS the mystery of the Holy Trinity.

You claim it is revealed in the O.T.

Now how can the Holy Spirit REVEALED in his mission in the time of Jesus be sent to the Apostles and the Church in the name of the Son and of the Son in person once he had returned to the Father if its in the O.T.

Common sense tells us if it was clearly revealed in the O.T. the Jews would have accepted it.

 

[rinnie]

And yet the “same God” teaching seems to do just that.
Indeed.

Only to you and others who reject the teachings of the RCC.

 

[rinnie]

Here it is Mickey

BEFORE his passover Jesus announced the sending of another Paraclet the Holy Spirit. AT work since creation having previously spoken through the prophets the Spirit will now be with and in the disciples to teach them and guide them into all the truth. The Holy Spirit is thus revealed as ANOTHER divine person with Jesus and the Father.

You continue to say the HS was revealed as another divine person with Jesus and the Father in the O.T.

The N.T proves you wrong. You claim it was revealed in the O.T. Jesus announced the Holy Spirit as another divine Person before Passover.

 

[rinnie]

As I have shown by the scripture Jesus never revealed to us the Advocate the Holy Spirit the 3rd Person in the Trinity untill before Passover.

Common sense tells you if Jesus revealed this to us before Passover in the 2nd Person of the Trinity it did not happen until the N.T.

Simply because it was not until the N.T that God revealed himself as the word that became flesh.

 

[Mickey]

I quoted you and others numerous times how they reject Christ in the Trinity.

Then it is not possible for them to adore the Trinitarian God.

I said that we are taught that although the Muslims do not worship God in the Perfect way through the Trinity. they do worship the One true God who is the God of Abraham.

Is that what your Church teaches? It is okay to worship God imperfectly? It is okay to consciously reject Christ and still worship the one true God?

You said you can show me where the Trinity is revealed as the 3 Person in One God. I asked you to show me this in the O.T.

Huh? I just showed you!

But that is irrelevant because muslims have the OT and the NT.

I am not continuing on this merry-go-round with you rinnie. We’ve done this too many times. This is my last post on this thread.

Christ is Risen!
Indeed He is Risen!

 

[rinnie]

Since so many people have been confused by these statements…I would love to see pope Benendict clarify the position. Some in your Church say that it is a misinterpretation. Others say it is not an infallible teaching, does not affect salvation, and is not worth the time spent debating.

I am not in your Church and I do not know if there is a falsehood being proposed…a misinterpretation…or a lame attempt at ecumenism. I just know that the muslims reject Christ…they reject the Holy Trinity…therefore there is no way that they are showing adoration to the one true God./QUOT

You claim you do not know if a falsehood is being proposed??

Yet you claim that if someone rejects Christ in the Trinity they are honoring a false god.

After all of this now you do not know if there is a falsehood being proposed. Are you serious Mickey.

You accused so much of myself and my Pope. now you are not sure? Are you kidding me

 

[rinnie]

Then it is not possible for them to adore the Trinitarian God.

Is that what your Church teaches? It is okay to worship God imperfectly? It is okay to consciously reject Christ and still worship the one true God?
Huh? I just showed you!

But that is irrelevant because muslims have the OT and the NT.

I am not continuing on this merry-go-round with you rinnie. We’ve done this too many times. This is my last post on this thread.

Christ is Risen!
Indeed He is Risen!

No Mickey it is very revelent. I have showed you the scriptue where the fullness of the Trinity God in the 3 persons was not revealed to us until right before Passover.

You said it was revealed in its fullness in the O.T.

You need to get back on the merrry go round and prove the Church wrong and yourself correct. I did my part. I did my best, I was honest, spoke from my heart, and told the truth.

I showed scripture, I showed the Vat. Council ll and showed the CCC. It was not my opinion it was my teachings and showed where they came from.

Why can you not show me one scripture or OT? Because the truth cannot be disputed.