Church Teaching on Unions

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I think tommcguire has a valid point. There has never really been a concrete definition of what exactly socialism is, and what definitions there have been have changed dramatically over time. One would have to elaborate what exactly the ideas were that constituted what Pius XI called socialism; otherwise it’s merely a condemnation of a word. Many people have called themselves socialists or Catholics without actually being socialists or Catholics. Many people may have also been socialists, while calling themselves something else.

What exactly, then, is contradictory to Church teaching? Calling oneself a socialist? Or is there a particular political position generally associated with socialism that is against Church teaching?
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Abu:
The obvious solution is to learn that economic laws are real, the result of real cause and effect, and developed by Catholic Late Scholastics.
I am an economics student in college at the moment, so naturally I’m a bit skeptical kneeling before the ideas of Medieval economists, as I imagine a modern Chemist would be if told to follow the alchemists of the Middle Ages. There may be something to these late scholastics you mention (I’ve never read anythin by them, so I wouldn’t yey know), but I wouldn’t quite consider it wise to abandon the whole modern discipline of economics.
 
Raskolnikov
What exactly, then, is contradictory to Church teaching? Calling oneself a socialist? Or is there a particular political position generally associated with socialism that is against Church teaching?
I am an economics student in college at the moment…. There may be something to these late scholastics you mention (I’ve never read anythin by them, so I wouldn’t yey know), but I wouldn’t quite consider it wise to abandon the whole modern discipline of economics.
Unless and until you take the time and make the effort to know what the Church actually teaches you won’t know the evils of socialism. The “whole modern discipline of economics” is a minefield of multitudinous theories, and the finagling of the U.S. federal government over decades has been instrumental in producing the mess that the economy is in today. In practice, the interventionist, socialist programs failed and resulted in the great depression of the 1930’s.

Long before the so-called “Protestant work ethic”, the rise of the West was due to an extraordinary faith in reason, influenced by Greek philosophy, which resulted from Catholic theology and doctrine, unlike Greek religion. Free enterprise “evolved, beginning early in the ninth century, by Catholic monks…seeking to ensure the economic security of their monastic estates.”(The Victory of Reason, Rodney Stark, Random House, 2005, p 55].

Pope John Paul II acclaimed the free economy that recognises the “fundamental role” of private property and the freedom of mankind to economic creativity, as “the path to true civil and economic progress” within “the fundamental and positive role of business, the market”… “and the resulting responsibility for the means of production.” *Centesimus Annus *#42, 1991]
tinyurl.com/5m32e

#48. “Another task of the State is that of overseeing and directing the exercise of human rights in the economic sector. However, primary responsibility in this area belongs not to the State but to individuals and to the various groups and associations which make up society. The State could not directly ensure the right to work for all its citizens unless it controlled every aspect of economic life and restricted the free initiative of individuals. This does not mean, however, that the State has no competence in this domain, as was claimed by those who argued against any rules in the economic sphere. Rather, the State has a duty to sustain business activities by creating conditions which will ensure job opportunities, by stimulating those activities where they are lacking or by supporting them in moments of crisis.

“In recent years the range of such intervention has vastly expanded, to the point of creating a new type of State, the so-called “Welfare State”. This has happened in some countries in order to respond better to many needs and demands, by remedying forms of poverty and deprivation unworthy of the human person. **However, excesses and abuses, especially in recent years, have provoked very harsh criticisms of the Welfare State, dubbed the “Social Assistance State”. Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State. Here again the principle of subsidiarity must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.100

“By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending. In fact, it would appear that needs are best understood and satisfied by people who are closest to them and who act as neighbours to those in need.**"
[My emphasis].
 
Abu,

You have not defined socialism. The word is used as a tag to praise and condemn without any understanding of what it means. I certainly do not think that old scholastic scholars have answers for all the problems of the 21st century.

Given the emphasis on the greatness of the free market; it is for sure not the “will of God on earth”. Yesterday, I heard a commentary on the Governor’s proposal to take tax credits away from struggling working class people in Michigan. The commentator said this is justified because the money for the tax credits is taken away from truly productive citizens who invest in jobs.

Mothers and fathers, using the $400.00 they get in tax credits, to take care of their children, provide for sick members of their family, and pay the rent is not productive? What I observe: those with great wealth do not always invest in what is productive. In one neighborhood in Michigan. I see enormous houses, out of proportion to anything any single family needs, still being built. This kind of extravagant spending is not productive investment. It certainly does not conform to the principle of Universal Destination of Goods; which in my understanding means one does not have a right to what one does not need when others lack the necessities of life. It would seem according to this principle those with wealth can be asked to give of what they do not need. I know some will say but the system is full of waste, it should not be in the hands of government…principle of subsidiarity. Yes we can argue this point, but let us argue it from the point of view of the needs and benefit of the poor not the most wealthy.

Economic theories make a difference, but I agree the moral life is most important in any system. In my reading of Chinese history of the 20th century, even during the Cultural Revolution 1966-76, one of the cruelest periods in history of the human race, there were dedicated Communist people who were charitable and just and there were others who acted out of revenge and the other capital sins. The need for redemption in Jesus Christ is obvious.
 
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Abu:
Unless and until you take the time and make the effort to know what the Church actually teaches you won’t know the evils of socialism. The “whole modern discipline of economics” is a minefield of multitudinous theories, and the finagling of the U.S. federal government over decades has been instrumental in producing the mess that the economy is in today. In practice, the interventionist, socialist programs failed and resulted in the great depression of the 1930’s.

Long before the so-called “Protestant work ethic”, the rise of the West was due to an extraordinary faith in reason, influenced by Greek philosophy, which resulted from Catholic theology and doctrine, unlike Greek religion. Free enterprise “evolved, beginning early in the ninth century, by Catholic monks…seeking to ensure the economic security of their monastic estates.”(The Victory of Reason, Rodney Stark, Random House, 2005, p 55].
I see. So I’m supposed to reject the Mundell-Fleming model of foreign trade and the Solow model of economic growth because, according to you, some monks in the fourteenth century discovered everything there is to know about economics? No offense to these monks, as I’m sure they were very wise, but I’m willing to bet that they didn’t provide satisfactory explanations to the many phenomena of such complex sub-disciplines of healthcare economics, resource theory, and so on. They may interesting, but reading them in order to understand economics seems a bit like reading newton to understand physics. Much has happened in the last few centuries that requires updating. To continue with the physics analogy, running a medival agrarian monastic state is as different from a modern, multi-trillion dollar industrial and commercial economy as Galileo dropping things from the tower of Piza is different from the behavior of subatomic particles studied by modern physicists.

And you refer to “socialist programs?” what programs are these and by what criteria do you deem them socialist (and therefore, I presume, against Church teaching)? Or are you just going to take any policy disagrees with your own view of economics, deem it socialist, and therefore against Church teaching to advocate it? Again, as just mentioned above, we need definitions.

And, I’m curious, how did socialist policies cause the great depression?
Pope John Paul II acclaimed the free economy that recognises the “fundamental role” of private property and the freedom of mankind to economic creativity, as “the path to true civil and economic progress” within “the fundamental and positive role of business, the market”… “and the resulting responsibility for the means of production.” [Centesimus Annus #42, 1991]
tinyurl.com/5m32e
He was right that a free market econom is generally the most efficient kind. But the mainetenance of as little intervention in the economy as possible should hardly the first priority of a society, and so a free market must be regulated and qualified where in certain areas and at certain times.

The pope might decree that shoes are a good thing, and indeed they are. But does this mean we should stop wearing shirts, pants, socks, and hats, and wear only shoes? I don;t think that would be the inteded consequence of such a decree, any more than John Paul II intended anyone to take his statement as an implicit inclusion of Milton Friedmanesque anarcho-capitalist economic ideology in Church teaching.
 
Raskolnikov
So I’m supposed to reject the Mundell-Fleming model of foreign trade and the Solow model of economic growth because, according to you, some monks in the fourteenth century discovered everything there is to know about economics?
A strange leap of fantasy. Free enterprise began in the ninth century with the monks as Rodney Stark affirms, and the understanding and development of the natural laws by the Late Scholastics followed.
There is a solid basis of economic Catholic thought from the fourteenth century. In the fifteenth century the Late Scholastics who were Thomists (followers of St Thomas) “writing and teaching at the University of Salamanca in Spain, sought to explain the full range of human action and social; organization.” They “observed the existence of economic law, inexorable forces of cause and effect that operate very much as other natural laws. Over the course of several generations, they discovered and explained the laws of supply and demand, the cause of inflation, the operation of foreign exchange rates, and the subjective nature of economic value…” For these reasons Joseph Schumpeter applauded them as the first real economists. (Thomas E Woods Jr, The Church And The Market, Lexington Books, 2005, p 8).

The following may be of economic interest:
drwilliamluckey.com/
mises.org/daily/4310
thomasewoods.com/articles/
mises.org/articles.aspx
The pope might decree that shoes are a good thing, and indeed they are. But does this mean we should stop wearing shirts, pants, socks, and hats, and wear only shoes? I don;t think that would be the inteded consequence of such a decree, any more than John Paul II intended anyone to take his statement as an implicit inclusion of Milton Friedmanesque anarcho-capitalist economic ideology in Church teaching.
What a bizarre comparison to a specific economic construct!

Already the groundwork is prepared from Post #136:
Pope John Paul II has seen that “it would perhaps be more appropriate to speak of a “business economy”, “market economy” or simply “free economy”. (Centesimus Annus, 42). This reality he supports. Face facts.
And further, “The Church has no models to present.” (CA 43). There is no “ideal model” in Catholic social doctrine simply because the Church has no models to present.

Unlike the very sharp depression of 1920-21 which was short because it was sensibly handled with virtually no intervention, the Great Depression was fuelled largely by pumping money into the economy.

Even Alan Greenspan has highlighted the “excess credit which the Fed pumped into the economy," resulting, finally, in an American economic collapse in the Great Depression beginning in 1929 and extending, mostly, until 1941. This judgment which Greenspan makes about the “excess credit” that directly brought about the Great Depression was made in a 1966 article in Ayn Rand’s Objectivist magazine and subsequently republished in Rand’s Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal.[2]
[2] Alan Greenspan, “Gold and Economic Freedom” in Ayn Rand’s Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal (New York: Penguin, 1987), pp. 20ff.
 
Unlike the very sharp depression of 1920-21 which was short because it was sensibly handled with virtually no intervention, the Great Depression was fuelled largely by pumping money into the economy.
I’m sorry, but economics is, at best, a softer science. But when all measurable data is abandoned we get squarely into the land where unicorns poot glitter.

Government spending contracted during the great depression because of concerns about mounting debt, and economic indicators contracted with it. It took WW-II, which was government spending on a then, almost inconcievable scale to end it. The combination of massive infrastructure expansion and being one of the few manufacturing nations on the planet not heavily impacted by war lead to a huge protracted boom.

Massive government investment in the GI bill, combined with an explosion in labor unrest and organization in the immediate aftermath of the bill helped make the distribution of that boom one of the most socially just in history and provided an interval of exceptionally good economic mobility.

Alan Greenspan failed to anticipate the housing bubble, failed to take the danger of derivitives seriously, and has now sheepishly admited that his core belief, that the financial sector will self regulate itself for its own long term good is obviously and blatantly false. Combining that with Rand, a cultist whose evil gibberish about individual exceptionalism was readily disarded when she was confronted with the reality of her own medical bills will not impress me…
 
This is supposed to be a thread about Church Teaching on Unions, and in my mind it still is. Economic forces, human decisions make or break the working people. Unions are the way workers join in solidarity to stand up to the unjust decisions that impact their lives. Let us rejoice in the successes of the unions. But also let us try to find ways to make sensible economic decisions. The return to old scholastics is not the answer. They did not have to deal with technology, they did not experience two world wars, they did not live in a country that spends 40 % of the earth’s military budget, they did not live with modern medicine, they did not live with biological and chemical science. We do live with all of this and more. I look to contemporary scholars to help me find answers. And again, I will always set as a priority the needs of the poor. I do not hear much that gives me hope that political interests are with the poor. Money buys power; the poor do not have the money to buy power so they NEED unions to build power to have a position at the table where economic decisions that effect the their lives are made. I find support for this in Church Social Doctrine and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
 
JFarrish
Government spending contracted during the great depression because of concerns about mounting debt, and economic indicators contracted with it
The Great Depression was fuelled by Hoover and then F.D.R. using his socialist New Deal by raising taxes, expanding public works spending, establishing welfare programs, destroying existing crops, imposing acreage reduction requirements, legislating for cartels to establish minimum selling prices, and limit output. We all know how deep and long that fiasco was.

Without those policies econometric estimates show that the “Depression would have been completely over (less than 5% unemployment) by 1936.” [Richard K Vedder & Lowell E Gallaway, *Out of Work: Unemployment and Government in Twentieth-Century America (New York, Holmes & Meier, 1993, p 142.

From 1929 to 1933, when prices and wages were artificially propped up by the federal government, real consumption declined by 19%, GNP dropped by 19%, and real gross investment fell by 91%. [See *Meltdown, Dr Woods, Regnery, 2009, p 102]. From 1933 to 1940 the unemployment rate averaged 18%. But, in the first three quarters of 1937 money wages rose by 13.7% through union activity which naturally reduced employment and economic activity slowed.

Dr Thomas E Woods, Jnr., exposes the errors in assuming that the World War II fiscal stimulus saved the economy. 29% of the pre-war labour force was at some time drafted into the armed forces, with some 40% of national output devoted to the War, and prices rose by arbitrary imposition of the government, not reflecting consumer choice. The GDP figures are meaningless, with rationing, uncertain product quality, inability to purchase new homes, cars and appliances, and an increased work week.

The unforseen prosperity in 1946 that followed the end of the War was due to shifting to producing things consumers needed with an increased and improved labour force.
 
tommcguire
The return to old scholastics is not the answer. They did not have to deal with technology, they did not experience two world wars, they did not live in a country that spends 40 % of the earth’s military budget, they did not live with modern medicine, they did not live with biological and chemical science. We do live with all of this and more……the poor do not have the money to buy power so they NEED unions to build power to have a position at the table where economic decisions that effect the their lives are made.
Ignoring the Late Scholastics is precisely what has devastated economic thinking which knows not, or disparages, their immense foundation – hence the meltdown of today. The reality is that the Catholic “Spanish Scholastics anticipated the best of modern economics, and even managed to avoid some of the errors into which Adam Smith would fall in the eighteenth century. (Thomas E Woods Jr, The Church And The Market, Lexington Books, 2005, p 7). Economics is the science of individual choice.

The purpose of Catholic social teaching is to call for and encourage the moral behaviour required by the Creator in acting according to the natural moral law of our nature, in keeping with reason and faith in harmony with those natural laws of cause and effect which have been discovered in economics and other sciences by Her faithful.

In post #145 you will see that they “observed the existence of economic law, inexorable forces of cause and effect that operate very much as other natural laws. Over the course of several generations, they discovered and explained the laws of supply and demand, the cause of inflation, the operation of foreign exchange rates, and the subjective nature of economic value…” For these reasons Joseph Schumpeter applauded them as the first real economists. (Thomas E Woods Jr, Op.cit., p 8).

Economic laws don’t change because they are based on human nature. These economic laws are based on the principles of human action – of cause and effect involving God-given reason and will, requiring scientific research and study, but are unlike the laws of physics which do not rely on reason and will for effect. So constants do not apply to economic laws as they do for physics. Economics is predictive and comparative, not absolute as in physics. [Dr Thomas E Woods, Op.cit. p 31].

As Gregory Gronbacher points out “there are foundational market realities that cannot be ignored for any reason, including moral concerns, because, in so doing, further harm may result to both market mechanisms and morality.” As Etienne Gilson put it, “Piety is no substitute for technique.” [Quotes from Thomas E Woods Jr, Op. cit. p 9].

“Building power in unions” is as destructive as entrenching power anywhere else unless economic and moral laws are known, understood and engaged with responsibility for the common good.
 
God did not intend for people to suffer. Economic poverty in rural and urban America is cause of tremendous human suffering. As I understand, your interpretation of them: let the rich get richer. Let them buy what they want, no matter how excessive, no matter how harmful it is to the poor. Let the rich have their million dollar toys, build their castles, and enjoy their $200.00 a bottle of wine. Just do not tax them. While children who are neighbors do not have enough to eat. Yes, that is a reality today in America.

I fail to see how what you have said about the late scholastics interpret the pray of Mary: “He has filled the hungry with good things, but has sent the rich away empty.”
 
God did not intend for people to suffer. Economic poverty in rural and urban America is cause of tremendous human suffering. As I understand, your interpretation of them: let the rich get richer. Let them buy what they want, no matter how excessive, no matter how harmful it is to the poor. Let the rich have their million dollar toys, build their castles, and enjoy their $200.00 a bottle of wine. Just do not tax them. While children who are neighbors do not have enough to eat. Yes, that is a reality today in America.

I fail to see how what you have said about the late scholastics interpret the pray of Mary: “He has filled the hungry with good things, but has sent the rich away empty.”
I saw a recent statistic on ABC News last week stating the city of Greater Los Angeles had the highest number of homeless people living on the streets of United States. A Whopping 90,000 people plus without shelter and basic needs.

This is nothing short of appalling.

This statistic was also echoed on a new ABC Sunday night show “Secret Millionaire”

Peace
Chris
 
tommcguire
God did not intend for people to suffer.
Adam & Eve having made their own trouble by pride and disobedience brought suffering into the world which was created without suffering – so face the facts.
So today most PEOPLE make their own trouble and suffering, because we are fallen, and some cause suffering to others.
Economic poverty in rural and urban America is cause of tremendous human suffering. As I understand, your interpretation of them: let the rich get richer. Let them buy what they want, no matter how excessive, no matter how harmful it is to the poor. Let the rich have their million dollar toys, build their castles, and enjoy their $200.00 a bottle of wine. Just do not tax them. While children who are neighbors do not have enough to eat. Yes, that is a reality today in America.
Because you are pre-occupied with trade unions you appear to fail to appreciate any economic fundamentals in the natural laws of cause and effect. The envy and disgust conveyed in your diatribe does nothing to solve anything. The “reality” of want which you portray, just like your example of the lady who could not pay for petrol, fails to convey or understand WHY.

Thus you fail to see why the U.S., which had so much going for it for so long, now has so much economic pain. The facts of the socialist FDR policies that precipitated the Great Depression are ignored. The facts of the more recent meltdown are unknown to you, just as for Greenspan:
In Congressional testimony October 23, 2008, Greenspan thought he had erred on financial deregulation. The New York Times wrote, “a humbled Mr Greenspan admitted he had put too much faith in the self-correcting power of free markets and had failed to anticipate the self-destructive power of wanton mortgage lending.”
What a confused “concession”, as the self-correcting power of free markets in the 1920’s had been shown !

However, the root of the crisis can be found in the federal finagling going back to the Carter era. **The Federal Reserve **was created by an act of Congress, its chairman government appointed, endowed with monopoly privileges, and with principles opposed to those of the free market because dedicated to central economic planning, – the discredited idea of the twentieth century.

Economist Larry Kudlow and Wall Street Journal editorial board member Steve Moore point to the Carter-era Community Reinvestment Act of 1977 (CRA) that purported to prevent denying mortgages to black borrowers - by pressuring banks to make home loans in “low and moderate-income neighborhoods.” Under the act, banks were to be graded on their attentiveness to the “credit needs” of “predominantly minority neighborhoods.” The higher a bank’s rating, the more likely that regulators would say yes when the bank sought to open a new branch or undertake a merger or acquisition. (30/3/2008)
The debacle of the Government Sponsored Enterprises (GSEs), Fannie May and Freddie Mac, that bought loans from the Banks and often bundled them as mortgage–backed securities for sale to investors, enabled the banks to issue more mortgages, fuelling the inflation of home prices by artificially diverting resources into mortgage lending. These are known as sub-prime mortgage securities. Adjustable rate mortgages, fueled by people speculating in house purchases, and artificially low interest rates created by the Federal Reserve, were a major factor in defaults as prices fell in 2006.

Federal intervention creating a feeling of prosperity stimulates the boom-bust cycle, resulting in an inevitable crash. The free market is always blamed for that crash. These artificial booms, wrote economist Henry Hazlitt, must end "in a crisis and a slump, and . . .worse than the slump itself may be the public delusion that the slump has been caused, not by the previous inflation, but by the inherent defects of ‘capitalism.’ " (What You Should Know About Inflation, 2nd ed., Van Nostrand, 1965, 18).
The same political establishment now blamed the banks and Wall Street for the subprime mortgage crisis.

More intervention cannot solve previous interventions which have distorted free enterprise.
The Popes have some realization of the cause and effect of economic laws:
“If I were to pronounce on any single matter of a prevailing economic problem, I should be interfering with the freedom of men to work out their own affairs. Certain cases must be solved in the domain of facts, case by case as they occur…[M]en must realise in deeds those things, the principles of which have been placed beyond dispute…[T]hese things one must leave to the solution of time and experience.” [Pope Leo XIII. Quoted in *The Church And The Market, Dr Thomas E. Woods, Lexington Books, 2005, p 4].

Pius XI wrote of “matters of technique for which [the Church] is neither suitably equipped nor endowed by office.” Quadragesimo Anno, 1931, 41]….“economics and moral science employs each its own principles in its own sphere.” [QA, 42].

Did you not know that 68% of all income taxes come from the top 10% of earners? (Woods, p 142).
I fail to see how what you have said about the late scholastics interpret the pray of Mary: “He has filled the hungry with good things, but has sent the rich away empty.”
While rightly condemning all greedy and heartless, perhaps you also failed to see Christ’s reward for prudence, justice, fortitude and temperance:
In the parable of the talents, Jesus lauds the servant who has multiplied talents – “For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Mt 25: 14-30). Christ certainly praised the wise use of the fundamental right of economic initiative and prudence in this parable.
 
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JFarrish:
I’m sorry, but economics is, at best, a softer science. But when all measurable data is abandoned we get squarely into the land where unicorns poot glitter.
Economics is by far the ‘hardest’ most quantitative of the social sciences (perhaps excluding physical anthropology).
Government spending contracted during the great depression because of concerns about mounting debt, and economic indicators contracted with it. It took WW-II, which was government spending on a then, almost inconcievable scale to end it. The combination of massive infrastructure expansion and being one of the few manufacturing nations on the planet not heavily impacted by war lead to a huge protracted boom.
Massive government investment in the GI bill, combined with an explosion in labor unrest and organization in the immediate aftermath of the bill helped make the distribution of that boom one of the most socially just in history and provided an interval of exceptionally good economic mobility.
👍
Alan Greenspan failed to anticipate the housing bubble, failed to take the danger of derivitives seriously, and has now sheepishly admited that his core belief, that the financial sector will self regulate itself for its own long term good is obviously and blatantly false. Combining that with Rand, a cultist whose evil gibberish about individual exceptionalism was readily disarded when she was confronted with the reality of her own medical bills will not impress me…
I totally agree with you about Greenspan and Rand. Some economists, generally Keynesian (like Joseph Stiglitz) actually did issue forewarnings about the possibility of a coming bust. Sadly, they were ignored in favor of ideologues like Greenspan.
 
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Abu:
The Great Depression was fuelled by Hoover and then F.D.R. using his socialist New Deal by raising taxes, expanding public works spending, establishing welfare programs, destroying existing crops, imposing acreage reduction requirements, legislating for cartels to establish minimum selling prices, and limit output. We all know how deep and long that fiasco was.
The New Deal was not socialist by any stretch of the imagination. Until you can actually define the word, how can you expect us to just accept that whatever you say (in other words, whatever you disagree with) is socialism must be socialism?

Also, your explanation does not account at all for the deflation of the Great depression, and Hoover and Roosevelt had diametrically opposed policies, so how can they both be simultaneously responsible for the Great Deptrssion?
Dr Thomas E Woods, Jnr., exposes the errors in assuming that the World War II fiscal stimulus saved the economy. 29% of the pre-war labour force was at some time drafted into the armed forces, with some 40% of national output devoted to the War, and prices rose by arbitrary imposition of the government, not reflecting consumer choice. The GDP figures are meaningless, with rationing, uncertain product quality, inability to purchase new homes, cars and appliances, and an increased work week.
Thomas E Woods should not be taken as gospel; and the war did effectively quell unemployment, which was one major goal regarding ending the depression. And why are the GDP figures meaningless? Why discount the contribution of war output to the GDP?
The unforseen prosperity in 1946 that followed the end of the War was due to shifting to producing things consumers needed with an increased and improved labour force.
Only partly. The main reason for the postwar prosperity was due to the fact that most of the industrialized infrastructure of the world (most importantly Germany and Japan) was in ruins and the US, just by picking up where it left off, produced around half of the world’s total output. Having no major competitors was a big help.

In reference to another post of yours, most people are not responsible for their own poverty. most are born into or close to it. You must prove your assumption that the poor did it to themselves, and the rich are just being rewarded for their prudence. Sociological data stands in the way of most of this theory; those who are born into wealthy families have an easy time getting education, getting tutors, getting jobs because of family connections. The free market has yet to truly fulfil the promise of equality of opportunity.

And blaming Jimmy Carter for the financial crisis seems a bit farfetched. Any explanation of tghe crisis must include indiscriminate deregulation like the repeal of the Glass-Steagall act. I suppose that contradicts your narrative.
 
Abu,

I apologize for upsetting you in my last post.

I in no way want to diminish the wisdom of the late scholastics. They searched and found wisdom; wisdom is of God and when human beings find wisdom, they have found God. My problem is with the over dependence on the thinking of these great men for figuring out contemporary problems. It is worthy of note that Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedit XVI, has stated that natural law is outdated. You can find his arguments on this in a book: The Dialectics of Secularization, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Jurgen Habermas, Ignatius Press, SF.

Also here are some other reflections on why the thinking of the late scholastic scholars you quote may not have the answers for today. In those days the allegiance of people was to a tribe or a prince. Today we live in democratic or moving to democratic societies. Plurality of thought is respected and expected, that was not true in earlier times. So it is much harder to define in clear terms cause and effect.

You sight the parable of talents. This is an important parable about the use of talents between the time of Jesus Death and Resurrection and the Second Coming. What we do with our talents is important. But the meaning of investment that Jesus refers to must be seen in light of other scriptures: the rich man and Lazarus, the rich young man, the difficulty to get to heaven compared to passing through the eye of a needle, and many others. Jesus would seem to be saying that what is of value is the seeking the Kingdom of God. Sell all you have and come follow me. He does not mean accumulating wealth is what the disciple is to seek first, as some would imply the talent parable means.

I really am not obsessed with unions. Unions are good and bad, can be improved, are needed till some better way is found to bring workers into solidarity in the pursuit of justice.
 
tommcguire
Jesus would seem to be saying that what is of value is the seeking the Kingdom of God. Sell all you have and come follow me. He does not mean accumulating wealth is what the disciple is to seek first, as some would imply the talent parable means.
No sensible reader or commentator would “imply” that the Christ means by His parable of the Talents to seek wealth FIRST in their lives. He is preaching and rewarding prudence, justice, fortitude and temperance, rather than attacking those who accumulate wealth legitimately, He is lambasting the slothful. In the Encyclical Letter *Sollicitudo Rei Socialis *(On Social Concerns), 1987, #42, Pope John Paul II emphasises “Likewise, in this concern for the poor, one must not overlook that special form of poverty which consists in being deprived of fundamental human rights, in particular the right to religious freedom and also the right to freedom of economic initiative.”

Reality is: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Put another way – easy come, easy go. Anyone who thinks that curtailing self-reliance is good is not facing reality.
But the meaning of investment that Jesus refers to must be seen in light of other scriptures: the rich man and Lazarus, the rich young man, the difficulty to get to heaven compared to passing through the eye of a needle, and many others. Jesus would seem to be saying that what is of value is the seeking the Kingdom of God. Sell all you have and come follow me.
Facing Reality
Christ’s teaching on wealth and property

In his outstanding work Christians For Freedom, Ignatius 1986, p 43-47, (with a new edition, since), Dr Alejandro Chafuen has examined carefully the teaching of Christ and wealth. Citing the case of the rich young man in Luke 18:18-25, Dr Chafuen remarks that many authors think that Jesus was condemning the possession of riches, but “the Late Scholastics indicated that this was not the correct interpretation. Citing Luke 14:26, where Jesus says, ‘If any man come to Me without hating his father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, yes and his own life too, he cannot be My disciple,’ the Scholastics pointed out that this passage does not enjoin Christians to hate their fathers. Such doctrine would contradict the Fourth Commandment. Thomist and Scholastic interpretations of this passage is that the entrance to the kingdom of Heaven is denied to anyone who values things more than God. In Matthew’s Gospel (10:37), the same passage reads: ‘Anyone who prefers father or mother to Me is not worthy of Me. Anyone who prefers son or daughter to Me is not worthy of Me.’ It would be a violation of the natural order to value a created thing above its creator, as did the young ruler who pursued riches as his ultimate goal.

“As is indicated in Luke (12:29-31): ‘you must not set your heart on things to eat and things to drink; nor must you worry. It is the pagans of this world who set their hearts on all these things. Your father well knows you need them. No; set your hearts on His kingdom, and these other things will be given you as well.’ Dr Chafuen notes that “many people close to Jesus were quite wealthy for their times. Joseph seems to have had his own business and perhaps a donkey; Peter owned a fishing boat, and Matthew was a tax collector. Jesus praised the rich man Zaccheus. It was the wealthy Joseph of Arimathea who kept faith even when the Apostles were beset by doubt (Mt 27:57). Jesus does not condemn the possession of riches but, rather disordered attachment to them.” Notice also that Jesus did not ask His Apostles to renounce their property.
 
tommcguire, Post #155
It is worthy of note that Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedit XVI, has stated that natural law is outdated. You can find his arguments on this in a book: The Dialectics of Secularization, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Jurgen Habermas, Ignatius Press, SF.
Please try to understand that Cdl Ratzinger is a supreme exponent and defender of the natural law, and that he is clear in his critique of any study which denigrates the natural law. The following show the Pope’s response.

As Cardinal:
One review of that Book at: tinyurl.com/3dp9j76
“A close analysis of the texts, however, shows that Ratzinger and Habermas think in quite incompatible frameworks with very different concerns. They both share a sceptical attitude towards scientific ideology and they both show a remarkable lack of cultural and political realism. Habermas assumes that civil-societal elites will transform moral concerns into political and legal power. Ratzinger hopes for a revival of natural law tradition which would overcome the ‘pathologies of reason’ and political and religious fanaticism.”

Another review at: tinyurl.com/4xf2qhz
The theologian (Ratzinger) considers the relationship of the “poles” of reason and faith which forms each, making them intertwined in extra-referential dialogue which prevents pathologies in either. In addition, there is the unifying concept of “natural law” which has in many ways been rejected by the application of the scientific fact of evolution to philosophy in all forms (as well as the general development of Western relativism).

As Pope:
hoover.org/publications/policy-review/article/6096#n12
Religion Within Reason by Mark Gould, December 1, 2007
Pope Benedict’s Critique of Islam

In consequence of this difference, the pope contends that Muslims are capable of legitimating jihad in light of precepts found in the Qur’an,11 without regulating their interpretation in light of reason, while the legitimation of irrationality, violence, is more difficult for Christians (at least for those Christians who share the pope ’s understanding of the isomorphism between faith and reason). This contention and the analysis that grounds it are argued incompletely in the pope ’s remarks,12 but they are defensible and, in my opinion, are fundamentally correct.
Note:
12. Perhaps the most important missing link is the pope’s understanding of the relationship between reason and natural law. To excavate his understanding of this relationship one has to consult his earlier writings, where he argues that Church dogma should never be legislated by the state, and where he contends that because all women and men have access to natural law, certain aspects of Church dogma, for example the sanctity of life and thus the evil of abortion, should be legislated on grounds of reason and natural right. This is the same natural law that defines violence as irrational. See Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Truth and Tolerance: Christian Belief and World Religions, trans. by Henry Taylor, (Ignatius Press, 2004 [2003]) and Joseph Ratzinger and Marcello Pera, Without Roots: The West, Relativism, Christianity, Islam, trans. by Michael F. Moore (Basic, 2006).
 
Raskolnikov (post #154)
your explanation does not account at all for the deflation of the Great depression, and Hoover and Roosevelt had diametrically opposed policies, so how can they both be simultaneously responsible for the Great Deptrssion?
False.
An excellent example of the myth propagated even to today. This poster fails to understand why the U.S., which had so much going for it for so long, now has so much economic pain.

What was Hoover’s legacy?
In fact, “no peacetime president in American history intervened in the economy to the extent Hoover did.” Hoover launched public works projects, raised taxes, extended emergency loans to failing firms and hobbled international trade. He called on firms to raise wages when consumer prices were falling dramatically thus endangering firms. That is why Roosevelt accused Hoover, during the 1932 presidential campaign, of having presided over “the greatest spending administration in peacetime in all history,” and derided him for believing “that we ought to center control of everything in Washington as rapidly as possible.” As the depression deepened FDR’s running mate, John Nance Garner, declared that Hoover was “leading the country down the path to socialism.” FDR’s Disputed Legacy, Time, Feb 1, 1982, 23].

And what did FDR do?
FDR in fact increased what Hoover had been doing, because he mistakenly believed that falling prices had been a cause of the Depression so he kept prices high – not realizing that they were a consequence, not a cause. On Oct 22, 1933 he said: “ever since last March the definite policy of the government has been to restore commodity price levels.” [Quoted in Greaves, *Understanding the Dollar Crisis, 237].
So FDR kept farm prices increasing by destroying existing crops and imposing acreage reduction requirements on farmers. Post #148 shows how FDR’s socialist New Deal continued the Great Depression – he raised taxes still more, expanded public works spending, and established welfare programs.

The Hoover-Roosevelt program would not allow the bubble to deflate, diverted real savings from a starved private sector into public works which hindered long-term adjustment. With prices and wages centralized, they were hobbled from allowing the reallocation of resources to consumer preferences at a sustainable level of prices.

“New Deal labor and industrial policies did not lift the economy out of the Depression…the subsequent abandonment of these policies coincided with the strong economic recovery of the 1940’s.” New Deal Policies and the Persistence of the Great Depression: A General Equilibrium Analysis, Cole and Ohanian, Journal of Political Economy 112 (August 2004: 813].

President Harding’s handling of the Depression of 1920-21 – he “inherited an economy that was reeling from dislocations caused by World War I. In a few months, wholesale prices collapsed by more than 40 percent. Production plunged over 20 percent. Unemployment zoomed from under 3 percent to over 11 percent. He sought to restrain government and let the free market make the necessary adjustments – cut taxes and slashed federal spending 10-20 percent per year. By 1922 the depression was over. During the next few years, unemployment dove while production soared 60 percent. Harding presided over one of the greatest economic success stories in American history.” The solution was to keep spending and taxation low and reduce the public debt.
(By Dr. Mark W. Hendrickson, August 12, 2009).
See: tinyurl.com/3dd6by3
 
My knowledge of the history of the economic and theological issues discussed here is limited, I leave to others the arguments for or against certain policies. I come to the discussion from the experience of working in a extremely poor and broken human community. I know a businessman who came into that community, got property, to develop housing, free from the government, and encouraged others to invest in a and take all the risk of failure. When the project failed, the businessman, from a wealthy community, a Catholic who talked a lot about Catholic Social Doctrine, let his company go bankrupt, but not without taking his own income from the project, which was considerable. The investors mostly retired people lost all, the community itself had new houses that could not be sold and became great places for the drug business that flourished in the community. You are right, there is, as this case demonstrates, an inordinate and unjust accumulation of wealth on the part of those who already have, taking from those who have little or not enough for the necessities of life.

Solidarity to me means standing with those who have little or not enough, experiencing what they experience, seeing how they are blessed by God, and yes also seeing their failings. Solidarity is aimed at making it possible for people without power to have power to sit at the table where decisions are made that impact their lives. Catholic Social Doctrine provides great principles to do that for example the Universal Distribution of Created Goods, a principle that most Catholics know nothing about. How to apply these principles is difficult for sure. I think your would agree government intervention is needed to prevent the inordinate greed of some from taking advantage of others and preventing them from getting opportunities to use their talents for the good of all.

As for initiative, I know many, like the woman who has three children of her own and not enough resources to provide for all their needs. Yet, when two children who lived in her neighborhood did not have anything to eat, she found a way to feed them with her children. This is not someone who is lazy, but someone who uses her talents to seek first the kingdom of God. What if all Catholics, including myself, were to share from our resources to the point of not taking for ourselves what we do not need? We might have a completely different kind of society, no?

As for Islam, it is a religion of peace. The Muslim people in the community I worked in did great things for the common good. Their commitment to the people and solidarity with the people was much greater than the Catholic community. We owe a great deal to Islam. Catholics and Muslims both take from sacred writings justification for unjust actions. We all would benefit from entering into greater cooperation with Muslims for the common good rather than picking out for emphasis certain doctrines that are used to justify what is unjust.
 
I am certainly learning alot by reading these posts. Thanks to all of you who take time to research and share your findings.

It seems to me that the poor are being used by evil people to manipulate those who have compassionate hearts toward them. If an evil group wants to achieve an evil end or steal a freedom from us, all it needs to do is throw out a plea for the poor – or education – and too many Catholics will give them a green light. Thus, we have abortion because the Democrats have discovered they can do any immoral thing they want as long as they throw money at welfare programs.

We may think we are helping the poor, but we are really enslaving them in their poverty and crippling the efforts of those who do work. It is greed disguised as “helping the poor.” If the Church had kept the responsibility to help the poor itself like Jesus taught, we wouldn’t be hamstrung by the government into divorcing help for the poor from evangelizing the gospel which is the very last thing Jesus commanded us to do before he left this earth.

Catholics need to start investigating a little deeper before jumping onto government plans to “help.” Unions, too, are guilty of this. They overlook abortion and corruption and cheating and intimidation just to get more money in their own pocket. Money truly is the root of all evil and it is not simply the rich that are guily of misusing it. In fact, many rich are much better stewards of their money than lower income people.

Peace.
 
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